Regeneration Costs

[Daltwisney]

This is prompted by a question (as yet unanswered by Steve) in the 6E Rules forum:

 

Cost Power

14 Regeneration (7 BODY per Week)

4 Regeneration (1 BODY per Day)

 

96 Regeneration (24 BODY per Day)

8 Regeneration (1 BODY per Hour)

 

24 Regeneration (3 BODY per Hour)

10 Regeneration (1 BODY per 20 Minutes)

 

96 Regeneration (12 BODY per Hour)

12 Regeneration (1 BODY per 5 Minutes)

All four of these pairs are 'equivalent' in terms of BODY healed over the course of the higher BODY/time.

Yet, unless the GM prorates healing, the LESS effective method (big chunk of BODY at the end of a longer time period), costs considerably more. Other than Drain or Suppress, what reason would YOU have for buying the 'slower' version?

 

(My opinion is that the pricing structure is out of whack, I think the pairings should be of equivalent cost, and possibly that the 'slower' version could even be cheaper, barring pro-rating, of course).

[Vanguard]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

Not exactly sure if things are broken or not but what I think you might not be factoring in is that a character can only recover what his Rec is in a month. The GM can pro-rate this to weeks if they so desired but if he does, you're still looking at an average character, with a Rec of 4, getting back 1 body a week.

 

Where as, if you chose Regeneration, you can get back as many points as you pay for within that week, day, etc.

[dmjalund]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

the GM (especially in a heroic campaign) may decide that regen can only heal at a maximum rate

[Daltwisney]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

These are all examples of Regeneration. I didn't include REC/month, since that the default healing mechanic and is essentially 'free' (though you pay for REC).

 

To clarify my examples a little further, for 4 pts, you can buy 1 BODY/day Regen, for 14 pts, you can buy 7 Body/week Regen. Over the course of a week, the two are functionally the same, and the 1/Day is mechanically more effective without GM pro-rating, yet 7 BODY a week costs 3.5x more. Other that Drain or Suppress, why 'should' it cost that much more?

[Daltwisney]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

the GM (especially in a heroic campaign) may decide that regen can only heal at a maximum rate

 

No argument there. It just does not explain the cost differential, especially when the less flexible power costs more.

[Beast]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

while I think this is the best version of Regen to date(5th ed was a kludge)

it is not perfect because it is based on something else

Had it been left as a power of it's own where you could just have added any adders then put on limitations from the time chart(still keeping no faster than post 12)

I would go with the cheaper version unless you feel the need for the protection of that power vs drains and the such(you would be better off just buying power defense)

and ignore the other way of buying

 

 

No argument there. It just does not explain the cost differential' date=' especially when the less flexible power costs more.[/quote']

[name_tamer]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

the GM (especially in a heroic campaign) may decide that regen can only heal at a maximum rate

 

This was the only reason I could think of for this price structure (I was the OP of the question in the 6E rules forum, to which Steve has now unhelpfully responded).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

I think Steve's response is consistent with his policy (and a well founded one for purposes of his time) of not answering design/philosophy questions.

 

Do you think 1 BOD regeneration per hour is worth 96 points or 8 points? If you think it's worth 8 points, then don't buy 24 BOD per day, and suggest 1 BOD per hour to your player. The ability wasn't designed around huge BOD per time increment, and to me it's that first BOD that's really valuable.

 

5e regen suffered from the opposite problem - the point savings from a longer time increment were negligible. Here, at least there is some savings. And the cost is that regen is best purchased in "1 BOD per time increment" stages. I'm OK with that. I'd say the guy with 1 BOD per hour makes logical sense, and the guy who goes all day with nothing, and suddenly recovers 24 BOD at the stroke of midnight, is tough to rationalize from an SFX perspective.

 

If you compare this to Healing, I suspect you'll find those costs are also way out. 14d6 of BOD healing averages a roll of 49, so 24 BOD. Make that 0 END, Persistent and it costs what, 70 x 1.75 = 122 AP. Make it Self Only (-1/2), and once per day only (-2), and it costs 35 real points. That's also very cost effective compared to Regeneration of 24 BOD per day, but not compared to 1 BOD per hour. But then, I think "self only" as a limitation on Healing is woefully undervalued - I go from being able to keep the whole group healthy to being able to only assist myself.

 

The bigger question is, in a specific game, what is the value of recovering 1 BOD per hour? In a typical 4 colour supers game, probably not much. The characters rarely take BOD anyway. In a dungeon crawling fantasy game, it's probably worth a lot more to get that BOD back over hours instead of weeks. There is no one cost that will be right for every game. To me, the costs for regen feel about right for any game where I would allow BOD recovery that quickly in any case, when applied to recover 1 BOD at a time. So that's the manner in which I would use regeneration - I wouldn't buy "5 BOD per minute" or "365 BOD per year". I'd buy "1 BOD per turn" or "1 BOD per day". There's a limit to how much the cost structure can be fine tuned.

[tesuji]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

This math error is not all that uncommon in hero.

 

The basic issue is this: if the "same thing" can be bought two different ways - one involving additive costs and the other involving multiplicative costs, then you are going to get skews

 

What regen is is "body over time". thats what you are paying for mostly. One can get X body over Y time by either paying a lot up front and limiting the time or buy just buying less but over a faster time.

 

there have been similar issues in the past with movement powers.

 

But for all the fretting over inconsistency, the point to me is moot.

 

Thats because, while ALL hero traits actually have subjective to campaign costs and the notion of "fixed costs" is more illusion than substabce, REGEN is one of those powers thats even more "campaign subjective".

 

In many types of supers campaigns, taking body is rare and so regen is more flavor than power. It should be cheap there since it is hardly game affecting.

 

In many types of fantasy games, taking body is common and healing may be infrequent and so regen can play a huge role and should be more expensive.

 

My suggestion would be - for campaign consistency - set out in house rules how to buy regen so everyone does it the same way. if you want "per hour" rule that they have to buy only 1 body regen and bump the time increment. or however you think is fair. At the same time, sit down and evaluate the actual value in game of regen for your specific campaign and set the price accordingly.

 

for me, i tend to say "if you are going to speed up the recovery, only buy 1 body".

[name_tamer]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

Hugh,

 

You make some interesting points.

 

First, I'm disappointed that Steve chose not to not answer the first part of the question, which was, from a game effect standpoint, is there a difference between buying (say) 7 BODY/week and (say) 1 BODY/day. You and he are both right that it has design philosophy implications. However, because Regeneration is something that keeps getting rejiggered from edition to edition, and because I'm basically just picking up 6E now (working my way through the book slowly and methodically, trying to understand all the changes) I really wanted to know: is there a game effect difference? Of course, it's Steve's board, and he can do what he wants and allocate his time as he wants; I certainly won't argue about that.

 

In answer to my question to Steve (re game effect), Daltwisney has pointed out something that I should have realized if I had thought it through more, which is that the more costly version of the power is actually less effective; this leaves me gobsmacked.

 

The rest of your post is all about game design/philosophy, which is lots of fun, but really I was more interested in merely what the rule meant.

 

You ask whether 1 BODY regeneration per hour is worth 96 points or 8 points, and leave it up to the player or the GM to decide which to buy. (I certainly know which power construct I would buy if I were playing a regenerating character.) But a valid question is, what do the rules say about how much it's worth? They seem to give two vastly different answers; it's apparently "worth" about the same as either having a 106 STR or having an 18 STR.

 

I tend to agree with you that it really only makes sense to deal with 1 BODY per increment until you get to the 1/turn level, but this is just a confirmation of my thought that it doesn't really make sense to have 24 BODY/day be a viable structure. But note that one of the sample powers in 6E1 (is that the right abbreviation?) is 2 BODY/hour, 16 points. I think any player who buys that instead of 1 BODY/20 minutes, 10 points, is a sucker unless the GM rules that faster healing is simply off-limits.

 

And I agree with you about the fine-tuning; when you go past 1/turn you run into other problems:

 

Cost 1 Bod per

2 Week

4 Day

6 6 Hours

8 1 Hour

10 20 Minutes

12 5 Minutes

14 1 Minute

16 1 Turn

32 6 Segments

48 4 Segments

64 3 Segments

96 2 Segments

192 1 Segment

 

All pretty academic, I suppose; fun to kick around.

[name_tamer]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

there have been similar issues in the past with movement powers.

 

Are you referring to noncombat doublings and/or megascale? Because there are at least some drawbacks to moving at noncombat speeds (or at megascale), whereas there don't seem to be any drawbacks for moving your regen up the time chart rather than taking more BODY regeneration.

 

for me, i tend to say "if you are going to speed up the recovery, only buy 1 body".

 

Yeah, that seems to be the bottom line. But as I pointed out in my response to Hugh, note that one of the sample powers is written up differently.

[Daltwisney]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

I played around with some numbers over the last 24 hrs, and pretty much came to the same conclusions as most of the posters here.

 

Because the time chart is NOT a linear progression, there really isn't a fair and simple pricing schedule that doesn't involve some fancy algebra.

 

The closest I could come to a 'reasonable and simple cost' structure involved something on the order of "REC + 10" pts. - gives you REC/Week instead of REC/Month, with a (+1/4) advantage for every step down the time chart. This simulated the multiple BODY/Time period purchase (higher REC meant a higher Base Cost), and made the progression a little less exponential. Still, I think the optimum solution is simply to use the time chart with a single BODY of Regen, with possible exceptions on the order of 2 or 3 BODY if flavor demands it.

 

A note to name-tamer: The Advanced Players Guide provides costs for Regen faster than 'per Turn', breaking it into 'per phase' and 'per segment' values. I won't post the values here (the book is well worth the asking price, it has some amazing stuff in it), but I will say your values are way off.

[name_tamer]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

A note to name-tamer: The Advanced Players Guide provides costs for Regen faster than 'per Turn'' date=' breaking it into 'per phase' and 'per segment' values. I won't post the values here (the book is well worth the asking price, it has some amazing stuff in it), but I will say your values are way off. [/quote']

 

Thanks.

 

Yeah, I just got those numbers from converting 2 Body/turn, 3 Body/turn, 4 Body/turn, 6 Body/turn, 12 body/turn. I assume the APG (which I've ordered, but won't get to read until I'm done with both volumes of 6E - whew!) does something like a continuation of +2 points for each additional step down the time chart. But I'll see when it arrives (& when I get to it!)

[tesuji]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

Are you referring to noncombat doublings and/or megascale? Because there are at least some drawbacks to moving at noncombat speeds (or at megascale), whereas there don't seem to be any drawbacks for moving your regen up the time chart rather than taking more BODY regeneration.

.

 

Actually it was from comparing cost for NCM using the normal doublings vs using megascale. They have similar drawbacks, though overtime people started adding in odd reads to make megascale a little worse. The cost for NYC to CA in an hour varies quite a bit if you use megascale on a low ap fly than if you buy moderate fly with doublings,

 

Again same type of math error - acquire magnitude by either adding ap or by multiplying low ap and net result is skewed schemes or contrived differences. I always used to like the "megascale is inaccurate by the size of the hex" which meant often you could miss the city and i wondered "what comic book movements are they emulating with this unusual interpretation?"

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

There is a tension here between the system being able to model something and the system balancing point costs.

 

There is a massive increase in utility as you regenerate faster because each step down the time chart means you regenerate between 4 and 7 times faster but each step only costs 2 points.

 

No real attempt is made to balance cost/utility over steps on the time chart. That could be done but it would be messy and result in 'fast' regeneration being really very expensive.

 

Bear in mind also that, whilst it is 'cool' to heal four times faster than a normal human being, that is going to have almost no impact on gameplay. In fact, until you get down to regenerating on the 'hours' scale, it is not going to have a big impact on gameplay. IMO, 'slow' regeneration is all about concept realisation, and not about really getting value for money.

 

Easily the most cost efficient way to regenerate is 1 point in the shortest time unit you can afford/you are allowed to buy.

[Ice9]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

No argument there. It just does not explain the cost differential, especially when the less flexible power costs more.

I think the cost differential is simply an example of "Regeneration: 60 BODY/hour" being the wrong way to build that effect. Same thing can happen with a lot of powers. For instance:

 

Summon Zombies - Summon 50p Zombie, x4 Zombies

20 points

 

vs

 

Summon Zombie - Summon 50p Zombie, x2 END, Unified Power

Summon Another Zombie - Summon 50p Zombie, Trigger (automatic reset; +3/4), 0 END, Unified Power

Summon Another Zombie - Summon 50p Zombie, Trigger (automatic reset; +3/4), 0 END, Unified Power

Summon Another Zombie - Summon 50p Zombie, Trigger (automatic reset; +3/4), 0 END, Unified Power

54 points

 

Same result, different cost, because one was built in an unnecessarily expensive way. And of course there's the classic "Transform Person to Somewhat Injured Person".

[dmjalund]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

an idea is if you want to head ad 4 BODY per day, buy 1 BODY per 5 hours with a (-0) Limitation

[Lucius]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

Regeneration (1 BODY per Turn) (16 Active Points); Conditional Power Must wait 24 hrs between uses (-1), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 5 Minutes (-3/4) Real Cost: 6

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Regenerating a palindromedary

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

There is a massive increase in utility as you regenerate faster because each step down the time chart means you regenerate between 4 and 7 times faster but each step only costs 2 points.

 

Whether this is a massive increase in utility very much depends on the game. If you tend to take BOD every combat, but have a combat no more often than, say, weekly, 1 BOD every 5 hours or more frequently will recover all your lost BOD between combats. Moving it down to every minute has no real effect unless your combats tend to last more than a minute and inflict enough BOD to risk death if you "only" get BOD back every 5 minutes. Of course, if most combat is lethal and healing is quick and easy between combats, Regen slower than 1/turn is probably a complete waste of points - no real utility.

 

Bear in mind also that' date=' whilst it is 'cool' to heal four times faster than a normal human being, that is going to have almost no impact on gameplay. In fact, until you get down to regenerating on the 'hours' scale, it is not going to have a big impact on gameplay. IMO, 'slow' regeneration is all about concept realisation, and not about really getting value for money.[/quote']

 

Again, it depends. If BOD tends to be taken, and last over extended periods, slow Regen can have an impact. If everyone else recovers REC per month and you get a BOD a day back, you heal considerably faster. If you tend to risk BOD damage every couple of days in a given game, recovering daily becomes a pretty good deal.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

Whether this is a massive increase in utility very much depends on the game. If you tend to take BOD every combat, but have a combat no more often than, say, weekly, 1 BOD every 5 hours or more frequently will recover all your lost BOD between combats. Moving it down to every minute has no real effect unless your combats tend to last more than a minute and inflict enough BOD to risk death if you "only" get BOD back every 5 minutes. Of course, if most combat is lethal and healing is quick and easy between combats, Regen slower than 1/turn is probably a complete waste of points - no real utility.

 

 

 

Again, it depends. If BOD tends to be taken, and last over extended periods, slow Regen can have an impact. If everyone else recovers REC per month and you get a BOD a day back, you heal considerably faster. If you tend to risk BOD damage every couple of days in a given game, recovering daily becomes a pretty good deal.

 

Good Lord, you're getting grumpy Have you and ghost-angel merged in some freaky and unnatural way? Come to think of it I haven't seen him around lately...

 

Whilst you are right on average, even in a game where combat is relatively rare and Body damage is relatively rare, you can not guarantee NOT having combats close together and the luck of the dice meaning you take significant Body damage in each.

 

Obviously we are both hypothesising as to possible outcomes, and scenarios, but, really the only games where, if you get into combat, there is very little likelihood* of Body damage is in a four colour superhero game, and combat is never infrequent in that genre

 

If there is almost no likelihood of taking Body damage then you are unlikely to buy either regeneration or extra Body, but if there IS a likelihood of Body then you are almost always better off spending 16 points on +1 regeneration than +8 Body**.

 

 

*Unless the colours are all metallic

 

**Unless you take more than 10 Body in a combat***

 

***i.e. there's never any absolutely right answer

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

Whilst you are right on average' date=' even in a game where combat is relatively rare and Body damage is relatively rare, you can not guarantee NOT having combats close together and the luck of the dice meaning you take significant Body damage in each.[/quote']

 

No, but the value of Regen depends on frequency. The less likely that result is, the less useful Regen is.

 

Obviously we are both hypothesising as to possible outcomes' date=' and scenarios, but, really the only games where, if you get into combat, there is very little likelihood* of Body damage is in a four colour superhero game, and combat is never infrequent in that genre [/quote']

 

How fast you can heal between combats is also relevant - thinking here of many fantasy games. If, once you're out of combat, you get the Cleric to heal you right back up, or take a BactaBath, your Regen isn't as useful as in a game where Healing is slow and limited.

 

0If there is almost no likelihood of taking Body damage then you are unlikely to buy either regeneration or extra Body' date=' but if there IS a likelihood of Body then you are almost always better off spending 16 points on +1 regeneration than +8 Body**.[/quote']

 

That's 16 BOD in 6E, where that Regen costs 16 points...

 

***i.e. there's never any absolutely right answer

 

Other than that one!

[dmjalund]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

How fast you can heal between combats is also relevant - thinking here of many fantasy games. If, once you're out of combat, you get the Cleric to heal you right back up, or take a BactaBath, your Regen isn't as useful as in a game where Healing is slow and limited.

 

many abilities are less valuable when external substitutes are available. check out my flashlight!

[Opal]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

There's long been a simple way to cost regeneration that's consistent with the normal healing rules and doesn't give you too strange a cost structure. I can't recall if it came from FUZION or if several folks suggested it on-line at various times, but I've been using it since the 90s.

 

Cost Regeneration based on the time increment, only. Use REC for the amount of BOD recovered. You start out at normal healing: REC/month. You buy a little regeneration, it becomes REC/week. You buy a lot, it's REC/turn. Simple.

 

 

I like 5 points per step on whatever time chart you use. (Personally, I rather liked the 4e Time Chart)

[GamePhil]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

There's long been a simple way to cost regeneration that's consistent with the normal healing rules and doesn't give you too strange a cost structure.

 

Quite right, and it's the one that was adopted almost exactly as you describe into 6th Ed, so I'm not sure what your point was, there. The only difference is that you buy the REC up the time chart on individual points of REC rather than REC as a whole.

[Opal]

Re: Regeneration Costs

 

That's a pretty meaningful 'almost,' then, if it's still causing the same old problem.