Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

[mayapuppies]

Hello all,

 

I am working on an herbalism system for Kamarathin and I have a couple of herbs that heal Impairing Effects or Disabling Effects from the Optional Damage Rules.

 

As an example; one particular herb will heal the effects of an Impairing Effects from the arms, legs, feet, and hands. It essentially reflects the herb healing "minor" bone or muscle damage.

 

What I'm wondering is if i should just build that as a Transform and if so, what level do you think would be applicable?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

Transform works, but so should healing: you might have an impairing wound to your leg because of a broken bone - the way to get rid of the impairment is to heal the bone. Healing with the 'Can Heal Limbs' adder should do it. I'd argue that it makes more sense to fix the injury than to transform a target into someone who still has an injury but is no longer bothered by it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

You could add a limitation that the Body damage remains but the impairment is removed: perhaps knitting a bone causes soft tissue injury, leaving the target just as injured, but less impaired by it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

...and to answer the original question, it would be between minor and major level of transform effect, probably minor: impairing the arms, for example, imposes a -3 OCV penalty, which is more than the -2 that minor transforms could impose (or remove), but it is only to one arm...

[mayapuppies]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

The problem with the 'Can Heal Limbs' adder, is that it wouldn't necessarily apply to a head impairment or one to the chest/gut would it?

 

I'm looking for a single "power" build that would be used across all types of herbs that heal this optional damage rule but with the special effect being different where necessary (muscle repair, bone repair, organ repair, nerve repair, etc.).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

The problem with the 'Can Heal Limbs' adder, is that it wouldn't necessarily apply to a head impairment or one to the chest/gut would it?

 

I'm looking for a single "power" build that would be used across all types of herbs that heal this optional damage rule but with the special effect being different where necessary (muscle repair, bone repair, organ repair, nerve repair, etc.).

 

Well I'd argue it would: a head is certainly defined as a limb under the 'grab' rules, and the torso, whilst in no way an actual limb, is used contextually in a similar way. I'd certainly allow the adder to deal with disabling and impairing effects, wherever they were located. You might want a footnote to the effect in an 'official' writeup, but I couldn't see any strong objections.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

Ok, I'll go for that then. Thanks for your help Mr. Sean.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

Ok' date=' I'll go for that then. Thanks for your help Mr. Sean.[/quote']

 

My pleasure

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

I suppose that Sean is correct - the best way to heal someone is to heal someone. It depends if that is the effect you are looking for. If someone has taken 6 BODY, does using the herb heal that BODY. If not, then you need to think round the problem. Without books, I do not remember what the effects are, but overall levels (only to offset penalties due to impairment) is a good way to get round things - dealing with the symptoms rather than the actual problem.

 

You could have a limited Healing that will remove the effects but not the actual BODY involved.

 

I realise I am very late to this but I thought that I might add something, even at this late stage...

 

 

Doc

[mayapuppies]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

Thank you sir, I never fault a "late" answer as you never know when the "perfect" idea will surface.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

Doc's post got me thinking: impairing and disabling are metagame constructs, presented without any real reference to a 'build' but they do have measureable effects and so one way you could mitigate those effects would be with an adjustment power other than healing - Aid - reduced fade rate - extended group - only to return to starting values.

 

That would mean that the effect of the herb is temporary, and wears off over time, which would simulate treating the symptoms rather than the underlying cause.

 

You could even have a side effect for that injured leg that if you use it at 'full efficiency' under the effects of the herb, then you actually take more damage - like a painkiller masking the pain of a torn muscle, thus allowing you to use it but actually tearing it more when you do.

 

Alternatively the herbs, like morphine, might be addictive over time with repeated use - you could have all sorts of fun with side effects

[Hierax]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

I'd like to see more of this Rolemaster/MERP-like herb healing stuff and a lot of it could very well be built as heavily limited Healing effects but there are other things one could do as well, here's one crazy idea:

 

Some forms of Disabling are effectively like Transforms giving a character a Disadvantage/Complication, so a Transform based on the BODY of the limb could be used to remove the Disabling just as some other herbs could grant a Power/Skill/Talent by using a Transform mechanism. Granting Infravision vs. Curing Blindness from a head wound depending on how many points the Blindness costs kind of thing. Besides using the Impairing/Disabling BODY value of the limb you could use a point value of the ability (Power/Skill/Talent) being granted or removed.

 

Or you could even use Dispel vs. the point value of the Disadvantage/Complication (or Negative Skill Levels) equivalent that the Impairment/Disabling has caused.

 

Lots of options.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

...and so we go full circle

 

I think that my problem with transform is that, if you are blind because you've had your eyes gouged out, you're not going to get your vision back without healing the damage that caused the loss of vision. Certain injuries I can perhaps 'see' a transform working for (a broken arm could be effectively 'splinted' with a transform perhaps, allowing him to use it without penalty, or at least with a different penalty...) but I don't think it would be a universal solution.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

Yeah but a transform could be 'healing'. If you have your eyes gouged out then you have a permanent disability as a consequence of injury even though the BODY damage has long since healed. To get rid of the blindness then you need to have the PHYS LIM removed from your character sheet and the book way to do that is probably Transform - though you could argue Healing/Regeneration.

 

The healing aspect of the eyes growing back could easily be a special effect of the transform. My problem with transform as a solution would be why someone with more BODY was more difficult to heal because 'game logic' would suggest such a robust person would be easier to effect a healing on....

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

Yeah but a transform could be 'healing'. If you have your eyes gouged out then you have a permanent disability as a consequence of injury even though the BODY damage has long since healed. To get rid of the blindness then you need to have the PHYS LIM removed from your character sheet and the book way to do that is probably Transform - though you could argue Healing/Regeneration.

 

The healing aspect of the eyes growing back could easily be a special effect of the transform. My problem with transform as a solution would be why someone with more BODY was more difficult to heal because 'game logic' would suggest such a robust person would be easier to effect a healing on....

 

 

Doc

 

This is true - some disabilities never heal normally - but we're not talking about normal healing but the Healing power, which can bring you back from being dead with the right adders. My problem is that JUST using transform can get rid of the impairment but leaves the damage - which would not logically follow - you get your eyes back, the damage is gone - so you'd probably need to link a heal to the transform anyway as transform can not be used as a form of healing (well - it CAN - but I'm pretty sure that would be frowned upon, even if it is not specifically no-no'd in the rules (and I haven't looked)), and that leads to a messy build.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure if that is what mayapuppies was intending - would herbs let you see again, or just reduce the effects of other impairments that affect movement, CV and levels? He specifically mentions as an example the sfx being that the herbs heal minor bone and muscle damage. That sounds to me like healing with 'can heal limbs'.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

My initial reasoning was similar to what Doc Democracy has stated with his eye example. The eyes are gouged out/removed and the person is blind, effectively forever, even after the BODY damage has been healed. so using the Heal power is useless, it repairs the BODY but the eyes are still missing and the character is still blind. While I am perfectly fine with the Heal power "curing" the temporary Impairing Effects, I'm not sure it works for the permanent/long term Disabling Effects.

 

I see the Disabling Effects as being much more severe and not removed when the BODY of the affected area is healed. I was looking for something that removed/healed the long term effects of either the Impairing or Disabling, but more specifically the long term effects of the Disabling. That's why I went with the Transform concept as it seemed to be the cleanest method for that.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

Two things: first the transform would have to work after or at the same time as a heal, and would have to work with it - actually restoring the eye tissue rather than just scabbing over the sockets - so transform on its own wouldn't work because you need to actually heal the body damage that took the eyes out.

 

Also Transform is not permanent: and having a reversion clause of 'gouging the eyes back out' is cheating .

 

To me 'Can Heal Limbs' does what you need: OK the torso is not a limb (but the head is) although it functions the same way mechanically and teh 'Can Heal Limbs adder' references disabling specifically (albeit in relation to regrowing severed limbs). Normal healing, the healing or regeneration power can not give you back stuff you've lost except damage: a complete lost limb never comes back with recovery, healing or regeneration - but it would if you used healing or regeneration with 'can heal limbs'. If you could survive the loss of your head, 'CHL' would allow the return of a whole head and all the associated sensory apparatus. To me it is 'perfect healing' - it can fix everything short of death - and there's an adder for that too.

 

Incidentally I allow the purchase of 'CHL' in isolation: it just means that your normal recovery/month will restore lost flesh and organs you could not normally grow back.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

Just to be clear as well - it isn't cost that bothers me:

 

Severe Transform 1 point (Disabled to Enabled), Constant (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2) (12 Active Points)

 

Costs 12 points, but 'CHL' costs 5: I think the principle is the important thing - and whilst you can certainly build things many different ways in Hero, some things lend themselves to concepts better than others.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

Ok, I can see where you're going with this, I'm going to mull it over a bit and see what's what. I may just end up putting in a caveat that the 'CHL' is what is actually repairing the 'effects' regardless if it is an actual limb or not. I'd also need to put in a note that the 'CHL' can't actually regrow a severed limb, as I don't allow that.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

Ok' date=' I can see where you're going with this, I'm going to mull it over a bit and see what's what. I may just end up putting in a caveat that the 'CHL' is what is actually repairing the 'effects' regardless if it is an actual limb or not. I'd also need to put in a note that the 'CHL' can't actually regrow a severed limb, as I don't allow that.[/quote']

 

I think that may even be worth a limitation: -1/2 can only repair limbs that are still attached.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

Sounds good!

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

Back in the 4th edition days, before the inclusion of a Healing power, I used to model this kind of effect via Transform. I ruled that since the Transform is returning the character to their original state, it is permanent.

 

However now that a Healing power has been included, I feel that a simple adder such as Can Heal Impairing wounds (+5) and Can Heal Disabling Wounds (+10) would be appropriate. Thus just simple healing only heals Body/Stun. Characteristic Healing brings back relevant characteristic points. However to remove general (Ocv/Dcv etc) penalties associated with Impairing and Disabling wounds, the adders would be needed.

 

This also helps to simulate real-world situations like a person who takes an impairing wound, gets saved and healed, but the wound reduces their physical capabilities and rears its ugly head at dramatically appropriate moments. (That damned trick knee went out again!)

[Hierax]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

Link to relevant old thread:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/45018-If-Healing-was-a-flavor-HERO-Vanilla

[mayapuppies]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

Ah, yes, my old Vanilla thread. heh

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Herb that heals 'Impairing Effects' or 'Disabling Effects'

 

Hmm. I'm trying to remember which game it was that required two kinds of healing - I think there was something in D&D (imagine that) where you could resurrect someone but if you had not previously healed the damage that caused the death then they would immediately die again.

 

If you repair someone's sight without first healing the damage then the disablement occurs all over again. It all depends on how crunchy you want your magic to be - HERO can do the whole regeneration thing in one - using Regeneration or it can do it differently.

 

In a low fantasy game I like differently - in High Fantasy I prefer regeneration.

 

Doc