Impact of Figured Characteristics

[Matt Holck]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

A character must declare they are taking a recovery on their dexterity initiative.

Any damage received before their initiative does not stop the character from recovering stun and endurance.

[BeZurKur]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Personally, I'm not against the idea of decoupling (at least not anymore). Doing so solves the problem with Speed because everyone buys it up anyway. Combat order is what Dex does, so that's okay, and every other stat has char rolls as well so that aspect is inherently balanced with each other. (This is assuming decoupling.) The wall is with the CSL and SL. As is, they seem to be underpowered. Having the "soft" figured between Dex and CV seems to make CSL attractive again, which leads me to think that CVs are underpriced. As for regular SLs, the only thing I can think of is to cut out most of it and leave the parts that affect different char based skill, such as Large Groups and All-Noncombat.

 

Hugh, you make a convincing argument. Just curious, what was the rationale you came across for the current model?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Personally, I'm not against the idea of decoupling (at least not anymore). Doing so solves the problem with Speed because everyone buys it up anyway. Combat order is what Dex does, so that's okay, and every other stat has char rolls as well so that aspect is inherently balanced with each other. (This is assuming decoupling.) The wall is with the CSL and SL. As is, they seem to be underpowered. Having the "soft" figured between Dex and CV seems to make CSL attractive again, which leads me to think that CVs are underpriced. As for regular SLs, the only thing I can think of is to cut out most of it and leave the parts that affect different char based skill, such as Large Groups and All-Noncombat.

 

Hugh, you make a convincing argument. Just curious, what was the rationale you came across for the current model?

 

I'm not convinced the current pricing is correct.

 

I think the current model is driven largely by underpriced characteristics. I can pay 2 points to buy a skill roll up by one point, so that's the lower end of the range. I can pay 5 points to buy my INT or PRE up 5 points, adding 1 to all skill rolls based on those stats. The price of a skill level allowing +1 to any one skill based on those stats can only be 3 or 4, unless we change one of the two end points in the range. The more I look at this, the more I come around to "INT and PRE should cost 2 points, not 1 point".

 

The DEX issue I find even more puzzling. I'm not sure how it got priced at 2 points when compared to INT and PRE - this implies combat order is far more valuable than PER rolls or PRE attacks (plus defense...which should be exclusive to EGO...and be like resistance to mental attacks). Then we get to skill levels, and decide, I believe, that since DEX costs more than INT or PRE, a level with DEX skills should cost more than a level with INT or PRE skills. I don't buy that logic. I think we should have:

 

- INT, DEX and PRE priced at 2 each

- +1 to all rolls based on either INT (excludes PER), PRE or DEX - 5 points [-1 limitation on +5 CHAR]

- +1 to any one roll at a time - 4 points [-1 1/2 limitation on +5 CHAR]

- +1 to any one roll in a tighter group of skills - 3 points (-2 limitation on +5 CHAR)

- +1d6 PRE attack - 5 points (-1 limitation on +5 PRE)

- +1 to all PER rolls - 5 points (-1 limitation on INT)

- +5 combat order - 5 points (-1 limitation on DEX; lower cost for fewer attacks)

 

Ego gives me trouble more...

- +10 resistance to mental powers, including PRE attacks - 8 points (-1/4 limitation on +10 Ego)

- +2 to all Ego Rolls - 3 points (- 2 limitation on +10 Ego)

- +10 PRE defense - 4 points (-1 1/2 limitation on +10 Ego)

- +10 resistance to mental powers, but not PRE attacks - 5 points (-1 limitation on +10 Ego)

 

This makes "not vs Mental Blasts Attacks" a -1 limitation on mental defense. That seems high. Mind you, I guess it's also not vs AVAD's targeting mental defense. Maybe that's OK. Pricing EGO at 1.5 seems kludgy and 2 is too expensive.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

one thing I like about the decoupling of figured is

a character can get limitations ( like x2 endurance) on characteristics without losing the figured.

[BeZurKur]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

I'm not convinced the current pricing is correct.

 

I think the current model is driven largely by underpriced characteristics. I can pay 2 points to buy a skill roll up by one point, so that's the lower end of the range. I can pay 5 points to buy my INT or PRE up 5 points, adding 1 to all skill rolls based on those stats. The price of a skill level allowing +1 to any one skill based on those stats can only be 3 or 4, unless we change one of the two end points in the range. The more I look at this, the more I come around to "INT and PRE should cost 2 points, not 1 point".

This is only true for the relationship between "base" characteristics, ©SLs, and CV. Making Dex, Int, and Pre 1 point solves their relationship discrepancy with the added benefit that it is sleeker as a whole, and like Matt pointed out before, reduces the gap between the king of stats: Str. I think the end point that should be changed is at the skill end of it. It would probably be easier too, since there is less synergy: no other effects such as pre attacks, perception rolls, etc. to factor in.

 

The DEX issue I find even more puzzling. I'm not sure how it got priced at 2 points when compared to INT and PRE - this implies combat order is far more valuable than PER rolls or PRE attacks (plus defense...which should be exclusive to EGO...and be like resistance to mental attacks). Then we get to skill levels, and decide, I believe, that since DEX costs more than INT or PRE, a level with DEX skills should cost more than a level with INT or PRE skills. I don't buy that logic.

I agree the logic for pricing Dex different doesn't seem right. You lost me a bit on the rationale for all three being 2 points. How much do we lose (if at all) if we adjust the points from the skill end? It may be the more elegant point structure and streamline design -- all stats from Str through Presence are 1 point -- can withstand a small discrepancy of costs overall.

[JmOz]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

I actualy would have liked to have seen the option in APG on splitting dex to make a difference between agility and inititive

[Matt Holck]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

I'll go last

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

I agree the logic for pricing Dex different doesn't seem right. You lost me a bit on the rationale for all three being 2 points. How much do we lose (if at all) if we adjust the points from the skill end? It may be the more elegant point structure and streamline design -- all stats from Str through Presence are 1 point -- can withstand a small discrepancy of costs overall.

 

How do we adjust the points at the skill end? At present, it costs 2 points for +1 to any one skill roll. It costs 5 points for +5 PRE or INT. The skill levels must fall somewhere between the two. We could reduce the cost of +1 to any one skill to 1 point. So what should it cost for +1 to all skill rolls based on the charactestic, +1 to any one roll based on that char at a time, or +1 to a subset of such skills? The only options are 2, 3 and 4 points, so we end up with 4 points for the CHAR roll effects, or 5 points for the full CHAR. I think +1 to all PER rolls and +1d6 PRE attack are each worth more than 1 point (certainly more than 20% of a 5 point increase to the stat).

 

I'm not convinced STR is the best benchmark. It comes with its own baggage, mainly comparative DC's. 1 DC at range that can be Spread costs 5 points. Take away Range and Spreading, and it's worth considerably less. STR gets some added abilities to offset those losses. I think STR becomes overpowered primarily where it is also the limiter on free gear that can carried, or when the game is very liberal in allowing access to range, AoE, etc. based on objects of opportunity (eg. "Is there a nice, convenient, balanced hunk of rubble I can throw at minimal penalties and get AoE I didn't pay for so I get all the benefits of the Energy Projector for free, in addition to the benefits of my STR?"

[AnotherSkip]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Have you ever bought up an EGO score on someone without mental powers? Why? There certainly isn't much bang for that buck. It's not like a 4 ECV was going to give you much more benefit than a 3 ECV. You were still going to get totally pwned by any halfway decent mentalist.

 

Did you ever spend even a single point to raise a COM score? Talk about lack of bang for the buck!

 

*Reloads the Pro Com shotgun* you CERTAIN you wanna start this?

[Matt Holck]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Beast buys that discriminatory scent

I mean discriminatory smelling

[The Main Man]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

*Reloads the Pro Com shotgun* you CERTAIN you wanna start this?

Oh damn it all to hell!*dives behind cover and starts loading new Pro-Striking Appearance gun and frantically putting on Non-COM Tac Gear*

 

Ready when you are.

 

I thought that this was about Figured CHAR!

[torchwolf]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

*takes a seat with a bowl of popcorn*

[Matt Holck]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

striking appearance must be bought as either ugly or attractive

one causing fear and the other admiration

Sunset, the Gold Dragon buys 2 levels ugly 'tooth and nail" and 2 levels attractive "groomed and scaled"

[ghost-angel]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

striking appearance must be bought as either ugly or attractive

 

One - Punctuation: not just for school papers.

 

Two - no, no it doesn't:

 

Sultry Voice: Striking Appearance +1D6/+1 when using appropriate skills (Oratory, Conversation, etc) or situations (on the phone, or similar)

 

Woah, Now That's Charismatic: Striking Appearance +2D6/+2 when in a Leadership situation (leading troops, making speeches, etc)

 

It's called Striking Appearance, and the primary function would be Appearance. But, meh - that's a name and it's Mechanics are +1D6/+1 in appropriate Presence/Interaction situations; making it an appropriate Mechanic to use for such abilities that would work in that arena.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

...cost 3 Character Points, and must be defined as "attractive" or "ugly" when purchased.

 

6e1 115

 

I was expecting a sultry voice

[ghost-angel]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

I've been known to ignore the rule book on a regular basis. This is no expection.

 

It's a Mechanic. It does something Mechanically. I will not, refuse to in fact, attach SFX to it.

 

I will state then - no it mustn't, the book is wrong.

Or "Sultry Voice" is also "Attractive Voice" if you really want to fit it all into the book nice and neat like.

 

And seriously dude, punctuation. Periods, Commas... your friend.

[torchwolf]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Any version of any game system is susceptible to semantic distortion.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

that's why I use them

[torchwolf]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Any version of any game system is susceptible to semantic distortion.

By this obscurely misquoted piece of non-informational wording, I just meant that taking the RAW literally might not necessarily be constructive. That said, a standing joke in my old campaign was that a mentalist projecting into someones mind was taking an "EGO trip".

 

striking appearance must be bought as either ugly or attractive

one causing fear and the other admiration

Sunset, the Gold Dragon buys 2 levels ugly 'tooth and nail" and 2 levels attractive "groomed and scaled"

True by the book, but still doesn't necessarily use the possible versatility of the Talent.

 

I've been known to ignore the rule book on a regular basis. This is no expection.

 

It's a Mechanic. It does something Mechanically. I will not, refuse to in fact, attach SFX to it.

 

I will state then - no it mustn't, the book is wrong.

Or "Sultry Voice" is also "Attractive Voice" if you really want to fit it all into the book nice and neat like.

Creatively interpreting "Attractive" and "Ugly" should be no further stretch than using COM creatively; signifying a positive or negative response caused by applying it.

 

While on the Striking Appearance subject:

 

Fast Talker: Striking Appearance +1D6/+1 when using appropriate skills (Conversation, Persuasion) or situations (on the phone, or similar)

 

Presto, used car salesman ability or similar concept represented fairly well in game terms.

 

And for 5ER it can also be used the same way in conjunction with COM of course.

[AnotherSkip]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Oh damn it all to hell!*dives behind cover and starts loading new Pro-Striking Appearance gun and frantically putting on Non-COM Tac Gear*

 

Ready when you are.

 

I thought that this was about Figured CHAR!

 

1. i agree about figured Char

2. Somewhat intended for rapier

3. I dont really have access to the funds for 6th so I havent seen what Steve did.

4. this whole thread is giving me flashbacks to 'the war'.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

"Grampa, what did you do in the war?"

 

"The limp I got from a stray bullet in the Battle for Comeliness. I lost the arm, though, in the full fight over Figured Characteristics. There I was, in the trenches at Alsace-Lorraine. We got the orders to make a big push..."

[The Main Man]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

1. i agree about figured Char

2. Somewhat intended for rapier

3. I dont really have access to the funds for 6th so I havent seen what Steve did.

4. this whole thread is giving me flashbacks to 'the war'.

 

*peers over cover*

 

So it's a ceasefire?

 

And there I was having one of my flashbacks.

 

I sleep with a gun under my pillow now.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

I like Comliness. I like Striking Appearance too.

 

An appropriate chance comes up I may try and use both in a game together.

 

You'll never get me to used Figureds again though.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

You can remove my Figured Characteristics when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.

 

Or if you're the one running the game, whichever comes first...

[BeZurKur]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

How do we adjust the points at the skill end? At present' date=' it costs 2 points for +1 to any one skill roll. It costs 5 points for +5 PRE or INT. The skill levels must fall somewhere between the two. We could reduce the cost of +1 to any one skill to 1 point. So what should it cost for +1 to all skill rolls based on the charactestic, +1 to any one roll based on that char at a time, or +1 to a subset of such skills? The only options are 2, 3 and 4 points, so we end up with 4 points for the CHAR roll effects, or 5 points for the full CHAR. I think +1 to all PER rolls and +1d6 PRE attack are each worth more than 1 point (certainly more than 20% of a 5 point increase to the stat).[/quote']

Actually, upon closer inspection, the regular Skill Levels won't require much adjustment. The only thing that needs to be done is have Agility skills absorbed into the other types such as Intellect and Interaction because of the false premise that Dex is inherently worth more than the other characteristics.

 

To reiterate, my position as it now stands (it has changed a little since the start of this thread) is the following:

1. Str through Pre should be 1 point apiece
   There simply isn't enough difference between them to justify the increased cost. Although there is the argument that Dex is more combat effective, the others also offer advantages in combat with the difference being made up outside of combat. The Skill Level costs (providing Agility skills levels are merged into other type skill levels) are inline and effective with all chars being 1 point. It is also more streamlined.
   
2. CV and MCV should remain tied to Dex and Ego
   Buying them individually is simply too tempting and nerfs most of the CSLs, effectively eliminating some of the interesting specializations and design choices that they offer. Non-agile combat effective characters can still be -- and IMO should be -- built through CSLs. As always, with the GM's permission, CVs can still be purchased up or down.
   
3. Other "Figureds" should be used as a baseline
   We simply need a point of reference, especially for players who are new to Hero. So far, published characters follow this model.