The Overbearing Presence

[dmjalund]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

I'll handle this one (you guys keep going)

This maneuver encourages an enemy to face YOU rather than chase your cohorts.

For each +2 beyond the threshhold is a -1 OCV against attacking anyone other than you.

You can add dice by attacking the enemy or by reducing your DCV

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

I think the "hesitates for a full phase" is not as potent as

grabbing, entangling, flashing or stunning a target

all of which lower the targets base DCV

 

Not 'hesitates', it is 'will not act'. Now whilst being grabbed is nasty, it is also nasty for the grabber in most situations, and there is a real limit tot eh number of people you can grab. Besides, grabbing is dangerous.

 

Stunning more than one person at once is really very difficult unless you have no regard at all for DC levels in your game. Stunning even one person is often pretty difficult, and the things that can boost your chances - say, Haymaker - pretty dangerous to try, once more...

 

Flash and Entangle...well we are back to AoE, aren't we? If you have a big enough area to get everyone that can see and hear you, that is fine and dandy so long as you are fighting alone. If you're not, you're going to have a very hacked off team. Anyway, Entangle, apart from some odd meta-gamey rules, or against some pretty specialist builds, is useless.

 

The other aspect tot his, I've frankly been avoiding is this: 'Will not Act for a Phase' is not the top level of effect. This is:

 

Target is cowed. He may surrender, run away,

or faint. He is at 0 DCV, and will nearly always

follow commands.

 

The particular example that started this thread came with a 43 PRE (we now discover) and 12 or more bonus dice.

 

Well, you can have a pop at the GM for allowing so many bonus dice, but if that is realistically possible...

 

Interaction Skill 1d6

Surprise 1d6 (that should be more)

Exhibiting a Power 1d6

Extremely violent action 2d6

Good soliloquy 1d6

Appropriate setting 1d6

Er...that's 7 dice and I'm struggling...you can get another 4 dice if you up Good soliloquy to Incredible soliloquy, Appropriate setting to Very appropriate settings and Extremely violent action to Incredibly violent action...and you still only have 11d6

 

...anyway, if you can affect someone with your PRE at all, every 3 dice gives you one level of extra effect, so you need (and I can probably work this out)...a PRE of (Opponent's PRE+30)/0.7 to make people surrender habitually (count bonus dice as 5 PRE). That means that to make someone who is pretty darned brave (20PRE) surrender you need 72 PRE, or, say, 42 PRE and 6 bonus dice, or 32 PRE and 8 bonus dice. 58 PRE (including bonus dice) will get you your 'will not act for a full phase' in those circumstances. 28 PRE and 6 bonus dice, for example...

 

Fascinatingly enough, PRE doesn't become superhuman until you have 51 in the characteristic (6.1.48), meaning that a 20 PRE is only considered 'competent'.

 

Anyway, I swore that I wasn't getting back into this, and here I am...

[bigbywolfe]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Flash and Entangle...well we are back to AoE' date=' aren't we? If you have a big enough area to get everyone that can see and hear you, that is fine and dandy so long as you are fighting alone. If you're not, you're going to have a very hacked off team. [b']Anyway, Entangle, apart from some odd meta-gamey rules, or against some pretty specialist builds, is useless.[/b]

Please explain. I've tried, but I can't possibly understand what the sentence I bolded is supposed to actually mean. You feel that the Entangle power, as a whole, is an utterly useless part of the system?

[megaplayboy]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Huh. Yeah, I don't get that either--in a typical supers setting, entangle works extremely well against any martial artist who lacks a martial escape maneuver, most mentalists, any character whose primary attack power is through a handheld focus(such as an agent, or a typical vigilante/guy with sword), and even against bricks and energy projectors will be at least semi-effective, forcing them to burn half a phase half the time and a full phase the other half, to break free. Any power that negates the opponent's ability to act for a phase is fairly useful, imo. And there are some opponents against whom it effectively takes them out of the fight entirely.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Well most mentalists are pretty happy to be entangled: it won't stop their own attacks and gives them some extra protection, unless it stops senses. The only builds that can't get out of an entangle almost instantly are characters relying exclusively on OAFs for offense (and not even always then depending on sfx) and, as has been mentioned, Martial artists who have not taken Martial Escape, don't have any other decent attacks and were daft enough not to claim that their MA damage was 'chi' based (and decided against Teleport as a movement power ).

 

Entangle has improved a bit in 6e because you can now do something like this (although it is scant compensation for losing the Barrier ability):

Plastic Wrap: 60 active points: Entangle 5d6, 9 PD/5 ED

 

That at least means that many characters can not just 'pop' out of it on the next phase after they are hit and only lose a 1/2 phase (which always confused me - presumably you took an attack action to break out - why doesn't that end your phase, assuming it required more than a 'casual' attack?). Many energy projectors won;t care much about losing a half phase as all they were going to do was sit there and unload anyway, and bricks can always fall back on a movethrough, if their opponent is not in convenient arms-reach.

 

As for the metagamey stuff, well, a 1d6 AoE entangle reduces the DCV of everyone it hits to zero and stops them moving. If they get hit before their next phase they are sitting ducks. It is meta-gamey because a tiny power has a set effect on all targets. Yes the GM might allow immediate casual use of powers to never become entangled by something that puny, but it is still an issue.

[megaplayboy]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

I'd also point out that one could haymaker an entangle, which should add another 4 body on average. Along with the aforementioned shifting def option, you could keep someone tied up for up to a whole turn...and that's before pushing it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

I'd also point out that one could haymaker an entangle' date=' which should add another 4 body on average. Along with the aforementioned shifting def option, you could keep someone tied up for up to a whole turn...and that's before pushing it. [/quote']

 

Well you can haymaker an entangle and haymaker out of one too, but haymaker doesn't get used that much in games I play in because it is pretty simple to avoid.

 

Gloop Girl just spent an entire segment glaring at me and working up a really big wad of StickkiSpit? I'll take a step to the left.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Also - and WAY off topic here - we play it that if your haymaker is interrupted it doesn't work. That may even be an official rule. You can interrupt a haymaker with, for instance, KB, and almost all superhero attacks do KB to normal opponents*, so as soon as someone winds up a haymaker, hit them so they fall onto their posterior and they've wasted a phase.

 

 

*By which I mean normal size and mass opponents. Sure you can brace, but only in one direction...and KBR is not THAT popular because it is often difficult to justify if you do not have increased mass. Average damage = 12DC, average KB roll (2d6) = 7, average KB = 10m. No more haymaker.

[megaplayboy]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Of course, a properly timed entangle is a perfect setup for someone else's haymaker, since the extra damage will tend to be greater than the defense of the entangle.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Of course' date=' a properly timed entangle is a perfect setup for someone else's haymaker, since the extra damage will tend to be greater than the defense of the entangle.[/quote']

 

This is true, although only just: a 6 PD/ED 6 BODY entangle will subtract 12 'defence' from an attack against the entangled character and a haymaker does, on average, 14 more stun for a normal attack, so you'll get 2 more stun through to your opponent on average.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

I've found Entangle a useful power in Fantasy and Supers games. Timing is everything. Forget Haymakering the entangled target - it's the perfect opportunity for a Grab from a Brick, or a Rapid Fire attack (the Entangle is gone after the first hit, but the rest also still connect), or a co-ordinated attack from a number of team members. Like other attacks, you can lose DC's to enhance OCV - perfect for pesky DCV oriented targets (now the entangle provides less defense, but the target is just as 0 DCV). The characters for whom it's a one hit takeout aren't all that common, but I don't think any typical DC attack should be a one hit takeout.

[Markdoc]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

This is true' date=' although only just: a 6 PD/ED 6 BODY entangle will subtract 12 'defence' from an attack against the entangled character and a haymaker does, on average, 14 more stun for a normal attack, so you'll get 2 more stun through to your opponent on average.[/quote']

 

You also get to zap 'em at 0DCV, so CSLs are probably on damage and if you are using hit locations, someone's probably about to go unconscious ....

It's important not to look at powers from "This is how my group plays, oh and by the way we only play Supers". Entangle isn't the killer power to end all killer powers, but far from being useless, against many archetypes, entangle is a massively effective tactic. As a fantasy GM, I have to be careful not to abuse it, because entangle can easily be a game-ender for most heroic characters.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

You also get to zap 'em at 0DCV, so CSLs are probably on damage and if you are using hit locations, someone's probably about to go unconscious ....

It's important not to look at powers from "This is how my group plays, oh and by the way we only play Supers". Entangle isn't the killer power to end all killer powers, but far from being useless, against many archetypes, entangle is a massively effective tactic. As a fantasy GM, I have to be careful not to abuse it, because entangle can easily be a game-ender for most heroic characters.

 

cheers, Mark

 

We can't shift the goalposts though; I make no bones about the fact that I rarely play anything other than supers, but this is a thread about someone chucking a 20+ dice PRE attack, so that is very clearly the arena we are discussing. The system works very differently in different genres and entangles are most effective when they have a range of possible targets that are going to struggle to get out of the entangle. I mean a 15 STR drain is going to be inconvenient to most super characters but a killer for a lot of heroic characters.

 

So, let us look at a 60 point entangle: assume it is a 'standard' entangle (same PD/ED/BODY) and that it is built as a single target attack. Most character it hits will be able to break out of that with a single attack, losing a half phase and being 0DCV until they break out, assuming 60ap is the campaign standard attack.

 

Never mind how I play the game, that fits the profile for sample super characters in 6e.

 

So far so froody.

 

Now we look at PRE To ge someone to lose a half phase you need PRE+10. Ho hum. Let us go for PRE +20 because they are 1/2 DCV and lose a full phase. Assuming the sort of characters we see as samples in 6e, we can expect a 20 PRE, so we need a 58 PRE to accomplish PRE +20 - cool - that balances nicely with the 60 points we have invested in Entangle.

 

Except, of course you have to roll to hit with entangle.

 

And you can only hit one person with entangle.

 

And you can't get bonus dice for thinking an entangle through ahead of time.

 

Now entangle doesn't suffer 'tail off' i.e. less effect from repeated use - fine - but the point of non-damaging attacks like this is not to keep repeating - it is to get an advantage that enables you to use your damaging attacks more effectively.

 

So, yes, in the situation we're discussing, compared to PRE attacks, entangle is useless.

 

Then we move on to 'spurious logic' - my argument may be internally consistent, but is based on a false premise that if people DID use 60 point PRE attacks regularly, they would not adjust their base PRE to compensate.

 

That is the rub though: do that and you push PRE attacks too far the other way. If everyone ramps their PRE up, PRE becomes pointless: no one can affect anyone with it. So, it is either a bargain (assuming you are playing in a game without too much investment in PRE: say around 20 PRE average). Whereas if everyone averages around 40 PRE you'll be lucky to get any useful effect at all from a 60 PRE attack.

 

Bonus dice for PRE are an issue too: to make a 'level' difference you need, on average, 3 dice...actually, never mind. I'm going to leave this one. As I've said before the only real reason I got into this discussion was to try and explore ways to improve the PRE mechanic or other mechanical systems that we might be able to use, and I find myself simply criticising or defending a position, which is a waste of time, if that doesn't lead anywhere interesting.

[Markdoc]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

On thinking about it, my comment might have come across as more sarcastic than intended - that wasn't actually what meant.... My initial reaction to your comment that entangle was "useless" was "Whoa, what? Entangle is the shiznitz" - and then I remembered your earlier stated preference: so I merely meant that "Useless" was too strong a description: it's only useless is certain specific settings. I know what you mean, but I am not sure that everyone else would, necessarily.

 

As for the discussion of PRE, I think one interesting thing has come out of it - we do seem to have come to an more or less general agreement that it is not, in fact, horribly overpowered. It can certainly be nerfed if people spend more on PRE - but then entangle can be nerfed if everyone spends points on STR, mind control can be nerfed if everyone spends points on EGO, etc - and each of those things are useful in their own right.

 

As to alternate approaches, I have pondered them, but haven't come up with anything that isn't annoying cumbersome, ruleswise - mostly my thoughts have tended to wander towards variants on mind control.

 

cheers, Mark

[Vondy]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

We can't shift the goalposts though; I make no bones about the fact that I rarely play anything other than supers....

 

Yes, but who says I have to use your goal posts? After all, I make no bones about the fact that I rarely play anything other than gritty heroic games. An honest assessment of the power's utility needs to take varying contexts for its use into play. Or be clear that the assessment is only true for one limited context. Otherwise all you get is an Obi-Wan facsimile of the truth: its only true from a certain point of view.... the truth of the power is far greater than what is written in your campaign context, young padawan.

[Ice9]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

This is true, although only just: a 6 PD/ED 6 BODY entangle will subtract 12 'defence' from an attack against the entangled character and a haymaker does, on average, 14 more stun for a normal attack, so you'll get 2 more stun through to your opponent on average.

Unless, of course, you put "Entangle Doesn't Block Damage" on it. Or just use a low-power Entangle - 1/1 is all you need if you time it right.

 

I mean, if I were being cheesy ...

Everyone Freeze! - Entangle 1 BODY/0 DEF, AoE (128m Radius, Accurate Selective; +2 1/2), Trigger (fixed, 0-phase, auto reset; +1/2), 20 AP

[Matt Holck]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Except, of course you have to roll to hit with entangle.

 

And you can only hit one person with entangle.

 

And you can't get bonus dice for thinking an entangle through ahead of time.

I think presence attacks should roll to hit contest MCV

it would broaden the significance of those characteristics

 

Can a character spread an entangle?

 

Can an entangle be a hay maker?

 

That is the rub though: do that and you push PRE attacks too far the other way. If everyone ramps their PRE up' date=' PRE becomes pointless: no one can affect anyone with it. So, it is either a bargain (assuming you are playing in a game without too much investment in PRE: say around 20 PRE average). Whereas if everyone averages around 40 PRE you'll be lucky to get any useful effect at all from a 60 PRE attack.[/quote']

 

That is why I suggested placing threshold at 1/2 presence

and increasing the cost for the stunning effects of pressence attacks to 15 point steps

instead of 10 point steps.

 

Another alternative would be to use ego for threshold instead.

 

 

 

I'll handle this one (you guys keep going)

This maneuver encourages an enemy to face YOU rather than chase your cohorts.

For each +2 beyond the threshhold is a -1 OCV against attacking anyone other than you.

You can add dice by attacking the enemy or by reducing your DCV

 

that seems a little cheap at 10 past threshold

the target is at -5 ocv to attack anyone else but the character

but I like it

[dmjalund]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

that seems a little cheap at 10 past threshold

the target is at -5 ocv to attack anyone else but the character

but I like it

 

the funny thing was I was inspired by the Scooby Sequel

[director13]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Hrm.

 

A little off the OP, but I like the Opposed Skill Rolls idea Sean mentioned earlier. Well, Opposed Characteristic rolls (PRE vs. EGO) as a zero phase "in conjunction with some other activity" roll, which lets me punt with skill vs. skill (or possibly skill vs. EGO, depending) for interaction skills when appropriate.

 

Abstract the result to "reduced effectiveness for 1 action" per margin of success (two gets you a whole phase, for instance), and "temporary bonus to EGO for one phase" per margin of failure. I'm free to roll for group or individual EGO, as appropriate. Free to use the existing Presence attack table for what "reduced effectiveness" means guidelines, too.

[dmjalund]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Startling Scream

nd6 PRE Attack, triggered by PRE+20 fear based effect on character

-when startled or scared, the character involuntarily gives off a shocking scream that startles those unfamiliar with it

[Matt Holck]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

lol