The Overbearing Presence

[Markdoc]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Although 'All those who oppose me' date=' know fear!' is a pretty easy way to exclude your own (hopefully loyal) troops from the effect. The rules actually say that the PRE attack affects those it was intended for.[/quote']

 

Right, exactly: thus, if the attack is general (like "Fear me") it affects all those around. We have found that "Tremble before my might, you over there and also you guys in the tower, but not you my loyal minions" tend to induce sniggering rather than trembling. In practice, we have found it's not so easy to make an attack which is both specific and appropriate (lack of appropriateness levees penalties, remember).

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Right' date=' exactly: thus, if the attack is general (like "Fear me") it affects all those around. We have found that "[i']Tremble before my might, you over there and also you guys in the tower, but not you my loyal minions[/i]" tend to induce sniggering rather than trembling. In practice, we have found it's not so easy to make an attack which is both specific and appropriate (lack of appropriateness levees penalties, remember).

 

cheers, Mark

 

If you walk up to the guy at the door and tell him in a quiet but assured voice that he is not to react but open the door and let you in or the four archers concealed in the building behind you will turn him into a pin cushion, that's a PRE attack that is not even going to be noticed by the guys in the tower, if it is successful. Even if you had loyal minions with you, and they heard and saw the PRE attack, they are never going to think it was addressed to them. PRE attacks don't necessarily require sound and fury, but you know that - the thing is you get, in the system as is, and any other system we might come up with, you get a bonus or penalty based on soliloquy - and whilst I'm in two minds about that, certainly issuing difficult and confusing orders would count as a penalty in my book.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

True' date=' although I might point out that in superhero games, where SPD is higher, the loss of 1/2 or even a full phase has less overall impact.[/quote']

 

Further reducing the impact of PRE in a Supers game.

 

Also' date=' it is worth noting that, whilst you [i']might[/i] get 60 PRE v 20 PRE in a superhero game, in a heroic game you are not likely to get the same sort of gap: if heroes average 20 PRE, it is unlikely, unless you are playing Cthulu stuff, that anyone will have or be able to justify a 60 PRE - so the genre itself will even out a lot of the inequities. That would mean that the situation you describe is less likely. Of course, with a 3d6 roll you can get more extreme results more often and so your objection is valid in that 'good' rolls will have more proportional effect in heroic games, but, like I said, they do anyway.

 

I rarely see a Super with less than 20 PRE (or EGO where that option is used). I see Heroic characters with lower PRE much more often, so there would still be a range.

 

And I'd expect giants, dragons, demons, monstrous space aliens and Dark Jedi, off the top of my head, to have pretty high PRE, so I think you can see wise spreads in other genres. And when we combine creatures with high PRE and Magic, we doubtless get Roar of the Dragon spells that add PRE to the PC. Now it's limited PRE, only for PRE attacks, but your concern has been that one large PRE attack starting combat, so only for PRE attacks and only limited uses really doesn't solve your concerns.

 

PRE makes you scary' date=' persuasive, charming, sexy, intimidating, believable, brave, trustworthy...in fact it makes you every positive human trait. That should be expensive. If you want to be able to blast with both fire and ice it costs more.[/quote']

 

How much should it cost to have +1 d6 PRE attack, +5 Resistance to PRE attacks and +1 to all interaction skill rolls? That's 5 points of PRE. It clearly should not cost more than the combined price of those three abilities. Maybe it should cost more than 5 points, though. In the 6e model, I think DEX, PRE and INT are more or less equal in value (although I'd transfer PRE attack resistance to EGO and remove it from PRE entirely, or at most include a sidebar that one could also allow PRE to resist PRE attacks, and of the three ancillary abilities of combat order, PRE attacks and PER rolls, I think PRE attacks are not of the lowest value). That indicates that either DEX is currently overpriced or PRE and INT are underpriced.

 

Sean, you comment on use of an interaction skill above. I wonder whether one approach might be to make PRE attacks at their base an "fear me, I am awesome" ability, and require an appropriate interaction skill roll (with relevant modifiers) to be able to direct your PRE attack (only my enemies will be impressed and hesitate) or get a more focused result (eg. unlock the door instead of run away or faint in terror).

[Markdoc]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

The option to use PRE or EGO as a defence has been removed as a basic rule' date=' but sidebarred back in as an option (as is using INT or other characteristics, for certain types of effect). The use of EGO rolls to negate effects is very much a 'if the GM thinks it appropriate' thing and the wording doesn't make it entirely clear if that applies to both combat and non-combat effects. EGO rolls, if they are used to resist PRE attacks work in the opposite way to mental power breakout rolls - the higher the level of PRE attack the more difficult it is to make an EGO rolls - with mental powers the higher the level of effect you are aiming for the more likely a breakout roll will succeed.[/quote']

 

Right: with the longer times for effect proposed in 6E, as a GM, I would under most cases now consider an EGO roll de riguer the exception being where the PRE attack is unusually well set up or appropriate. The use of the words "Negate" indicates to me, at least that the combat penalties would not apply to someone making their EGO roll. My reasoning is that the mechanism described in 6E is much closer to mental powers. Those allow EGO rolls to resist - and the increased duration would otherwise make PRE attacks too powerful.

 

I don't think I'll use the tool-kitting options when I move to 6E: the option to take an EGO roll instead more or less makes using EGO to resist PRE attacks directly, redundant, IMO.

 

I don't, obviously, think they are too powerful now, but that doesn't mean I want to see them made more powerful!

 

Having read the 6E stuff on PRE attacks carefully, I have now overcome my initial dislike: I was concerned about the potential for longer effects, but on reflection I actually like the way they have been bought more into line with the way mental powers work.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

If you walk up to the guy at the door and tell him in a quiet but assured voice that he is not to react but open the door and let you in or the four archers concealed in the building behind you will turn him into a pin cushion' date=' that's a PRE attack that is not even going to be noticed by the guys in the tower, if it is successful. Even if you had loyal minions with you, and they heard and saw the PRE attack, they are never going to think it was addressed to them. PRE attacks don't necessarily require sound and fury, but you know that - the thing is you get, in the system as is, and any other system we might come up with, you get a bonus or penalty based on soliloquy - and whilst I'm in two minds about that, certainly issuing difficult and confusing orders would count as a penalty in my book.[/quote']

 

Yep - I agree completely: one of the tricks with PRE attacks is how they are delivered. What you describe above is an excellent example of how they can be used - and also an example of how PRE attacks don't necessarily affect all enemies - or all nearby individuals. I wouldn't give what you describe a soliloquy bonus (it's a straightforward PRE attack) but what you describe here is also an example of how PRE attacks tend to be used in my game: direct combat use is actually relatively uncommon, except by monsters who are unnatural in some way (rotting corpses, multi-tentacular horrors, etc) and their PRE attacks are generally, by necessity pretty simple, continuous and soon overcome.

 

I find them an excellent tool for assessing things like how generic bad guys will react to request, threats, etc. One of the things that used to make me grind my teeth in an earlier game I played in was that it was useless to threaten or interrogate captured bad guys - no matter what we said, they would - to a man - refuse to cooperate even in the face of certain death.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

If we were talking about what we'd want to see in PRE attacks mechanics-wise, here's what I'd want to see:

 

1. It must not be an attack action, as that rules out being impressive or scary while doing something. It doesn't necessarily have to be free as it is now, but at most a half-phase action, and preferably zero-phase

 

Hmm. I agree in principle, but...in practice, you get this: Awesome Lad stands unafraid in front of the VIPER squad and calls for their surrender. He has to stand unafraid in front of them because calling for their surrender from behind a dumpster is less impressive, as is constantly flinching every time one of them looks like raising a weapon. Then he has to wait until their action to know what effect he has had - still standing there - now if he gets them all, and they surrender - fine - but if he doesn't, and one of them gets off a shot at him, making him stagger or cry like a girl, what is that going to do to the impression he's just made on the rest? So I don't see PRE attacks necessarily taking no effective time. Awesome Lad, in order to impress the opposition, doesn't have to look at all concerned about them - which may make him an easier target if the PRE attack doesn't work.

 

One option would be to require that PRE attacks are combined with another action, and the outcome of that action helps to determine the effectiveness of a PRE attack - so, for instance, if you decide to make an attack AS A PRE ATTACK, you make the attack and, if it is successful, you see what effect that has on enemy morale: frying one of your opponents might make the rest hesitate, frying the leader might make the rest delay until they can organise themselves and frying half the contingent might get the rest to surrender or flee. In the situation above, Awesome Lad might get -3 if he just shouts, 'surrender', but if he voluntarily reduces his DCV to half for a half phase he gets +1, or up to +4 if he voluntarily reduces his DCV to 0 for a full phase. Attitude matters - if he doesn't have confidence this is going to work, he's going to have a job convincing the enemy.

 

You could combine a PRE attack with a movement action (for example) but that's generally less impressive in combat, or any other action - that seems preferable to having it as a separate thing you do in isolation. I know that you can get bonuses for 'other actions', like attacks, but this would make the whole thing more contingent on the situation and what you are trying to accomplish if you HAD to combine it with another action, and 'automatically' address how long a PRE attack would take.

 

2. There needs to be some method for rapidly degrading effectiveness. I don't want people to be "continually awesome" - in other words a kind of "shock and awe" effect.

 

Again, generally agree, but...using the idea from above that you HAVE to base PRE attacks on other actions, if you continue to be successful in those actions, why should your PRE in effect grow, rather than diminish: the rout effect - once one part of the opposition breaks, panic can sweep through the ranks. Once you fail in an action, your 'aura of invulnerability' cracks and then the effect of your PRE rapidly diminishes. If everything goes perfectly you might beat the enemy with barely a shot being fired - but when does it ever go perfectly ? Equally if someone just keeps on shouting 'Surrender' at you, you are going to get bored quickly, but, if each time he shouts it one of your squad's head explodes, that is going to increase your fear factor considerably - even if the PRE attack didn't work the first time, once half your squad are dead you're going to be re-considering your options.

 

3. It needs to be heavily modifiable by situational modifiers - re-use modifier would solve problem #2 above.

 

Agreed - in fact I would say that the situational modifiers should, except in extreme cases, have far more impact than 'native PRE'. Matter of style and application really - but there definitely needs to be the ability to do this.

 

4. It should have some combat effect' date=' but that effect should not be overwhelming or result in long-term effects[/quote']

 

Here's where I'm going to get shouted at...I think that a PRE attack should generally not have overwhelming effect - but very occasionally - and in JUST the right situation you might even get the enemy to defect to your side. That would probably require troops who were already half inclined to go that way, and the right tone and presentation - but it should be possible - there is a real overlap with interaction skills here though. Equally, whilst I think that PRE attacks should GENERALLY not have a long term effect, I think any mechanic needs to include the possibility - if you hear a politician making a speech that not only makes great sense but also engages you with his personality, that might affect how you vote next year or the year after: all other things being equal you might well vote for the guy who impressed you. I do agree that COMBAT effects (delay, CV etc) should be relatively limited in both scope and time though.

 

That said, I have no particular problem with using a skill vs skill roll instead of the current mechanism. I can't see any particular advantage to it, but neither can I see any particular disadvantage. One difference is that you could use a PRE attack as a complementary to an interaction skill (the current mechanism simulates that by giving a small bonus for a successful PRE attack, but it's not precisely the same).

 

cheers, Mark

 

I'm wary of interaction skills (which are PRE based) giving you a bonus to a PRE attack, or vice versa - that seems like you get to use the PRE twice. The advantage of a skill roll type system is that you can actually use interactions skills as the basis of your PRE attack - almost like 'extraordinary skill use' - that way you get a clear advantage if your skills match the situation but you don't get the advantage of high PRE twice.

[megaplayboy]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Maybe PRE attacks should have a "fade rate"--in addition to providing PCs with an EGO/PRE roll to shake the effects off. The effect level might drop 5 points per time step, 5 points per turn, 1 level per phase, or somesuch. You could then have an advantage for it to be more lasting.

[Markdoc]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Sean' date=' you comment on use of an interaction skill above. I wonder whether one approach might be to make PRE attacks at their base an "fear me, I am awesome" ability, and require an appropriate interaction skill roll (with relevant modifiers) to be able to direct your PRE attack (only my enemies will be impressed and hesitate) or get a more focused result (eg. unlock the door instead of run away or faint in terror).[/quote']

 

My approach has always been that PRE attacks are something of a blunt instrument. Given the relative price of PRE, you should not be able to substitute a PRE attack for Mind Control, or for interaction skills. Instead, they should be useful mostly as an adjunct to those abilities. The other is that a PRE attack is - as suggested by the name, an "attack". In other words, although there's much, much more to PRE attacks than trying to gain a combat advantage - PRE attacks can be used to augment information gathering, seduction/charm attempts, etc - you still have to "do something" to make a PRE attack, even if that something is a free action.

 

So Sean gave a good example of how PRE attacks are often used in my game: a specific command, or a threat. That does not, itself constitute an attack (in the sense of a phase-ending action) but it is noticeable action which will have consequences in how you are perceived:threatening to fill someone with arrows is unlikely to make them think warmly of you, even if you don't do it. But the essential point is that pretty much by definition you can't make a PRE attack which isn't noticed, even if it's only by the recipient.

 

Some examples - you could use a PRE attack when using conversation to try and get information out of someone - but you'd have to do something: slam your hand on the table and shout "Dammit, I know you are holding out on me! Tell me the truth" or hiss "If I don't get the answer I want right now, the Mandarin will hear of this!" or even try pathos: "You have a daughter yourself. You understand I'm worried and need to know where my daughter is". You could even (if you are giving up on the soliloquy bonus ) just say "I'll try threatening him - PRE attack". But you couldn't however (at least in my game) say "I'll presence attack him to get a bonus, but without him noticing" Likewise, you could use a PRE attack to augment a Charm (nee: seduction) attempt by pulling open your shirt and saying "C'mon baby, you know you want me!" but you couldn't "stealthily" PRE attack your target to get a bonus to your seduction attempt.

 

Edit: unless you bought your PRE with invisible power effects, or whatever it's called these days. I've never had anyone do that, but it'd be a way to build a nondescript but oddly convincing character

 

Of course the listed modifiers include hefty penalties for "against the mood" and "inappropriate setting" - and those are separate and cumulative categories so whippin' out the ol' PRE attack without setting the situation up is unlikely to be successful. And - importantly - since the PRE attack has to be an obvious and somewhat aggressive action a failed PRE attack is likely to incur negative penalties. At the very least it draws attention, more often it will make you seem pushy, rude, an exhibitionist, etc It will also almost certainly tip off your target as to your true intentions. That might get you what you want - in the short term - anyway. But it will likely have long term consequences.

 

This is one reason that the Overbearing Presence isn't really a game wrecker - unless you rarely interact with the same people more than once, PRE attacks rapidly lose any utility.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Maybe PRE attacks should have a "fade rate"--in addition to providing PCs with an EGO/PRE roll to shake the effects off. The effect level might drop 5 points per time step' date=' 5 points per turn, 1 level per phase, or somesuch. You could then have an advantage for it to be more lasting.[/quote']

 

The 6E rules now include examples of precisely that - essentially, you declare an effect you want and for every step up the chart you get beyond that, you get a longer period of effect.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

....................

 

Sean, you comment on use of an interaction skill above. I wonder whether one approach might be to make PRE attacks at their base an "fear me, I am awesome" ability, and require an appropriate interaction skill roll (with relevant modifiers) to be able to direct your PRE attack (only my enemies will be impressed and hesitate) or get a more focused result (eg. unlock the door instead of run away or faint in terror).

 

That's an interesting approach: using the PRE as both force and direction - but I come back to high PRE characters who will always (or often) succeed in the interaction skill simply because they have so much PRE. Using the current system you could certainly give a bonus for any skill levels you had in an appropriate interaction skill...

[Matt Holck]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Maybe PRE attacks should have a "fade rate"--in addition to providing PCs with an EGO/PRE roll to shake the effects off. The effect level might drop 5 points per time step' date=' 5 points per turn, 1 level per phase, or somesuch. You could then have an advantage for it to be more lasting.[/quote']

 

 

filibuster only outside of combat

the art of staling eminent actions for long periods of time

this might be useful for waiting for the police arrive

+5 points beyond threshold to buy effect down the time chart

[Markdoc]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Hmm. I agree in principle' date=' but...in practice, you get this: Awesome Lad stands unafraid in front of the VIPER squad and calls for their surrender. He has to stand unafraid in front of them because calling for their surrender from behind a dumpster is less impressive, as is constantly flinching every time one of them looks like raising a weapon. Then he has to wait until their action to know what effect he has had - still standing there - now if he gets them all, and they surrender - fine - but if he doesn't, and one of them gets off a shot at him, making him stagger or cry like a girl, what is that going to do to the impression he's just made on the rest? So I don't see PRE attacks necessarily taking no effective time. Awesome Lad, in order to impress the opposition, doesn't have to look at all concerned about them - which may make him an easier target if the PRE attack doesn't work.[/quote']

 

They don't have to take no effecive time - but I'm not real interested in a mechanism that requires they take up time. Otherwise you get the situation where Grond seizes a tank, smashes it to the ground and roars "Flee, puny humans!" and the GM goes, "No, that's a full phase, so it's not impressive - you can be impressive next phase, but you'll have to stop doing stuff - you're only impressive when more or less immobile, so that you can use an action."

 

I'd translate your example above completely differently were I GM.

 

Cowering behind the dumpster? Big minuses to the number of dice.

Getting hit and obviously taking significant damage? Bonus to the EGO roll of the others to negate the effects of the PRE attack (which might mean they get to act anyway, that phase - potentially bad for Awesome Lad)

However, jumping out in front of them - essentially saying "Hah - you can't harm me!" - at the worst an unmodified PRE attack, maybe even a bonus depending on how cool he looks doing it

Jumping out in front of them and standing still (DCV 0). Essentially saying "Take your best shot" - big-time bonuses to the PRE attack - demonstrating a power. In fact, I've done exactly that in the past with one of my own Brick characters. Getting a bunch of agents to surrender is far more efficient than beating them up one by one.

 

One option would be to require that PRE attacks are combined with another action, and the outcome of that action helps to determine the effectiveness of a PRE attack - so, for instance, if you decide to make an attack AS A PRE ATTACK, you make the attack and, if it is successful, you see what effect that has on enemy morale: frying one of your opponents might make the rest hesitate, frying the leader might make the rest delay until they can organise themselves and frying half the contingent might get the rest to surrender or flee. In the situation above, Awesome Lad might get -3 if he just shouts, 'surrender', but if he voluntarily reduces his DCV to half for a half phase he gets +1, or up to +4 if he voluntarily reduces his DCV to 0 for a full phase. Attitude matters - if he doesn't have confidence this is going to work, he's going to have a job convincing the enemy.

 

You could combine a PRE attack with a movement action (for example) but that's generally less impressive in combat, or any other action - that seems preferable to having it as a separate thing you do in isolation. I know that you can get bonuses for 'other actions', like attacks, but this would make the whole thing more contingent on the situation and what you are trying to accomplish if you HAD to combine it with another action, and 'automatically' address how long a PRE attack would take.

 

These things you request - they are already in the rules on PRE attacks, as she is wrote. That is exactly what "exhibiting a power", Violent actions" etc are made of. This is, is it not, the point I have been making, over and over? The penalties are there for a reason: standing safely back out of reach and trying to PRE attack people into submission is going to activate the penalties - it's the difference between shouting "Go on, chaps! You charge the machine guns, while I stay here!" and boldly vaulting the barbed wire, shouting "Come on chaps! Follow me and we'll give the hun a real seeing-to!" There's an instance where in fact, a movement action makes all the difference.

 

Again' date=' generally agree, but...using the idea from above that you HAVE to base PRE attacks on other actions, if you continue to be successful in those actions, why should your PRE in effect grow, rather than diminish: the rout effect - once one part of the opposition breaks, panic can sweep through the ranks. Once you fail in an action, your 'aura of invulnerability' cracks and then the effect of your PRE rapidly diminishes. If everything goes perfectly you might beat the enemy with barely a shot being fired - but when does it ever go perfectly ? Equally if someone just keeps on shouting 'Surrender' at you, you are going to get bored quickly, but, if each time he shouts it one of your squad's head explodes, that is going to increase your fear factor considerably - even if the PRE attack didn't work the first time, once half your squad are dead you're going to be re-considering your options.[/quote']

 

If you keep requesting things which are already in the rules, you only confirm my opinion that perhaps you'd find PRE attacks less problematic if you actually used them more. Making people's head explode certainly would trigger the violent actions and exhibiting powers modifiers - more than offsetting the penalty for repeating yourself, and possibly offsetting penalties for things like numerical advantage.

 

How many times must it be said? Modifiers, modifiers, modifiers! If you don't use 'em (and heavily, at that) you're not in fact, using the rules as written and if you don't use the rules as written, it seems a bit off to complain about the way they're written, no?

 

However, if demonstrating your power doesn't budge your opponents in the first few phases, it's unlikely that doing it over and over again will. At some point they're going to say "Yeah, you can make people's heads explode, We get that already."

 

You don't have to take an action (meaning, move attack, etc) to use a PRE attack, but given that PRE attacks are almost always going to be at a minus (for "against mood", if nothing else: you generally don't PRE attack people to get them to do something they already want to do) unless you really have bags of PRE, you're going to need those extra dice. It's why, in game, The Overwhelming Presence is really not overwhelming: just standing there being awesome gets you relatively little traction - certainly 60 PRE isn't going to cut it.

 

Agreed - in fact I would say that the situational modifiers should' date=' except in extreme cases, have far more impact than 'native PRE'. Matter of style and application really - but there definitely needs to be the ability to do this.[/quote']

 

I dunno - my reaction to a baby jumping out at me is likely to be less severe than to that of an adult man and less to a man than to a lion. I'm thinking native PRE is also important. But no question - situation is very, very important indeed. A lion on the other side of a wall and moat simply isn't scary, no matter how much he roars. A lion roaring nearby in the bush when when you are in an open-topped vehicle is kind of scary (speaking from experience here). A lion roaring when right beside you, unexpected like - well I imagine that'd be pants-wettingly scary.

 

Here, we seem to be getting closer to some sort of agreement.

 

So ... yeah. Modifiers. Must have modifiers appropriate to the situation. To take an example, if The Overwhelming Presence marches up the door of the villain's lair and demands entrance from the minion on the other side of the armoured door, he's going to be looking at -4 to -6d6 in situational modifiers on his roll. That's going to be enough - at most - to make the minion hesitate for a half phase and think "Woah. Scary lookin' dude". If on the other hand, he blows a hole in the door ... exhibiting a power, violent action and maybe no longer looking at the "disadvantage" penalty. Now the minion is likely going to seriously consider the request

 

It's not all in the modifiers - Ethel the unassuming is not going to have the same effect even if she can shoot holes in the door - but that's OK: it's what The Overwhelming Presence paid all those points for. However, no discussion of PRE attacks can meaningfully be held without considering modifiers.

 

Here's where I'm going to get shouted at...I think that a PRE attack should generally not have overwhelming effect - but very occasionally - and in JUST the right situation you might even get the enemy to defect to your side. That would probably require troops who were already half inclined to go that way' date=' and the right tone and presentation - but it should be possible - there is a real overlap with interaction skills here though. Equally, whilst I think that PRE attacks should GENERALLY not have a long term effect, I think any mechanic needs to include the possibility - if you hear a politician making a speech that not only makes great sense but also engages you with his personality, that might affect how you vote next year or the year after: all other things being equal you might well vote for the guy who impressed you. I do agree that COMBAT effects (delay, CV etc) should be relatively limited in both scope and time though.[/quote']

 

As I play things, to get the longer term effects you need an interaction skill. A PRE attack will make you sit up and pay attention: it might even make you pay rapt attention. But unless there's actually some meat there - oratory, persuasion, whatever, a long term effect is not possible with raw PRe. The best you could hope was "Wow, he's a really great speaker, really charismatic" but when asked "So what dis he say?" the reply - without some interaction skill - is "Oh, you know. Stuff. About ... things."

 

However, I don't disagree that in some situations you can get extraordinary results like getting people to swap sides. It's going to need a very good roll, but it could happen. Once they have done that, however, the effects of the PRE roll don't need to be long lasting - it's not like they can just casually brush off the consequences "Well, yeah we did turn on you that one time, but hey - you can trust us now!" Once the first flush of enthusiasm wears off, you're going to have to have a discussion with your new allies

 

I'm wary of interaction skills (which are PRE based) giving you a bonus to a PRE attack' date=' or vice versa - that seems like you get to use the PRE twice. The advantage of a skill roll type system is that you can actually use interactions skills as the basis of your PRE attack - almost like 'extraordinary skill use' - that way you get a clear advantage if your skills match the situation but you don't get the advantage of high PRE twice.[/quote']

 

As noted, I don't have a problem with that: you get to use your PRE twice .... once, if you know what I mean. Basically by using a PRE attack to net a bonus to your interaction skill, you are laying your cards on the table and use raw power to try for a quick resolution. If it fails, in most cases, you are going to be worse off. To take one of my examples if the raw PRE bonus from ripping your shirt off and going "Hey Baby!" fails to make your Charm skill roll successful, you are likely unable to return to "OK, so how about we go back to casual conversation ..."

 

I don't see it as fundamentally any different to using two PRE-based interaction skills together (Persuasion to get a complementary bonus to Oratory, for example, when trying to sway a crowd). there you are also using PRE twice. If you grab someone and squeeze them, you are also using STR twice. Using a characteristic twice is hardly an unusual action in Hero system.

 

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

They don't have to take no effecive time - but I'm not real interested in a mechanism that requires they take up time. Otherwise you get the situation where Grond seizes a tank' date=' smashes it to the ground and roars "Flee, puny humans!" and the GM goes, "[i']No, that's a full phase, so it's not impressive - you can be impressive next phase, but you'll have to stop doing stuff - you're only impressive when more or less immobile, so that you can use an action[/i]."

 

Not really suggesting that- simply that a PRE attack should be made as a part of another action, and takes as long as that action does. You could potentially make it as part of a soliloquy only - which would mean it was an action that took no time - but doing so would not be impressive, even if the soliloquy was. This really is not far from the rules as tehy are at present, it just explicitly states that rather than being a SEPARATE action that takes no time, PRE attacks work only when you are doing something that you want to impress people with.

 

I'd translate your example above completely differently were I GM.

 

Cowering behind the dumpster? Big minuses to the number of dice.

Getting hit and obviously taking significant damage? Bonus to the EGO roll of the others to negate the effects of the PRE attack (which might mean they get to act anyway, that phase - potentially bad for Awesome Lad)

However, jumping out in front of them - essentially saying "Hah - you can't harm me!" - at the worst an unmodified PRE attack, maybe even a bonus depending on how cool he looks doing it

Jumping out in front of them and standing still (DCV 0). Essentially saying "Take your best shot" - big-time bonuses to the PRE attack - demonstrating a power. In fact, I've done exactly that in the past with one of my own Brick characters. Getting a bunch of agents to surrender is far more efficient than beating them up one by one.

 

Again, I don't think I'm that far from how it works - it just isn't expressed that well: the point is you can not know what effect a PRE attack has until after the people you are trying to impress act unless they helpfully soliloquise, "OK, you've convinced us.". That has a lot of imlpications for how PRE attacks work in practice. 'Deliberately exposing yourself to enemy fire, contemptuous of its ability to harm you' is not one of the things in the modifiers list - and whilst it isn't an exclusive list, the things it concentrates on could certainly be broadened. Simply working it thorough mechanically though, a PRE attack may take no game time to make, but unless you stick around to see what effect it had, you will undermine it: shouting 'Surrender' to one group of agents then, before they can act, flying off to confront another group is going to weaken the PRE attack. If it were in fact complete when you utter the words, what you do after shouldn't matter. Just to stress though - the rules can do this - but don't discuss it, which is unhelpful.

 

 

 

These things you request - they are already in the rules on PRE attacks' date=' as she is wrote. That is exactly what "exhibiting a power", Violent actions" etc are made of. This is, is it not, the point I have been making, over and over? The penalties are there for a reason: standing safely back out of reach and trying to PRE attack people into submission is going to activate the penalties - it's the difference between shouting "[i']Go on, chaps! You charge the machine guns, while I stay here[/i]!" and boldly vaulting the barbed wire, shouting "Come on chaps! Follow me and we'll give the hun a real seeing-to!" There's an instance where in fact, a movement action makes all the difference.

 

Y'see here I'm of the opinion that a PRE attack shouldn't even be necessary - it really is a matter of role playing. Unless you are an utter b*****d, you're not going to let Captain Braveheart (a PC) do the dash across no-man's land without backup. That aside, I did say that a movement action would be GENERALLY less impressive - but you've picked a good example of when it works well.

 

Interesting thought - PRE attacks are almost never going to be used in that kind of 'inspirational' way against PCs: the only time inspirational PRE attacks will be relevant will be to overcome enemy PRE attack results or psychological limitations. To that extent, I don't care much about them because, as GM, what an NPC does is one of the things I control, and I usually make them act in a sensible way given the situation, which takes into account their bravery and psychology. I don't really want to abrogate responsibility for the world to the dice unless it is almost irrelevant to the plot. I don't mind LOOKING like I'm deferring to the dice - but I don't want to actually do it. No, PRE attacks only matter when there is a PC involved and then generally when a PC is trying to influence NPCs or a reasonably major NPC is trying to influence a PC or, sometimes, a PC is trying to influence another PC.

 

To an extent, unless you have a character that is built for PRE, and has substantially more than those around him, and given that most heroes and significant NPCs with probably have above average PRE, the whole thing becomes, more often than not, simply a way for the GM to decide on how minor NPCs react. Hmm. Have to think more about that....

 

 

 

More to say but called away - I'll come back to this and your other interesting points later

[Matt Holck]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

That's an interesting approach: using the PRE as both force and direction - but I come back to high PRE characters who will always (or often) succeed in the interaction skill simply because they have so much PRE. Using the current system you could certainly give a bonus for any skill levels you had in an appropriate interaction skill...

 

oddly no, if the character doesn't buy the skill,

it can't add to their 8- everypersons skill

regardless to their presence

[Markdoc]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Not really suggesting that- simply that a PRE attack should be made as a part of another action' date=' and takes as long as that action does. You could potentially make it as part of a soliloquy only - which would mean it was an action that took no time - but doing so would not be impressive, even if the soliloquy was. This really is not far from the rules as tehy are at present, it just explicitly states that rather than being a SEPARATE action that takes no time, PRE attacks work only when you are doing something that you want to impress people with.[/quote']

 

Actually, that would work fine for me - as noted, I always require my players to tell me how they are PRE attacking. Not because it is required by the rules, but so that I can assess penalties/benefits. It's very rare in our games (actually, I can't think of an instance) of someone just standing there doing nothing and PRE attacking - though if the player wanted, they could do that - as long as they told me that's what they were doing. It's not likley to be very impressive, but hey, that's their choice.

 

Again' date=' I don't think I'm that far from how it works - it just isn't expressed that well: the point is you can not know what effect a PRE attack has until after the people you are trying to impress act unless they helpfully soliloquise, "OK, you've convinced us.". That has a lot of imlpications for how PRE attacks work in practice. 'Deliberately exposing yourself to enemy fire, contemptuous of its ability to harm you' is not one of the things in the modifiers list - and whilst it isn't an exclusive list, the things it concentrates on could certainly be broadened. Simply working it thorough mechanically though, a PRE attack may take no game time to make, but unless you stick around to see what effect it had, you will undermine it: shouting 'Surrender' to one group of agents then, before they can act, flying off to confront another group is going to weaken the PRE attack. If it were in fact complete when you utter the words, what you do after shouldn't matter. Just to stress though - the rules can do this - but don't discuss it, which is unhelpful.[/quote']

 

That's a very good point - we've always assessed PRE attacks in context so it's not "I PRE attack. Did that work? OK, then I go over there and do these things". It's more "I am going to PRE attack and then go over there and do these things" So yeah, if you pose in front of a gang of agents to impress them with your contempt for their weapons you run the risk of them not being impressed and shooting you. If you want to play it safe stay behind the dumpster and take 4 dice off your PRE attack. You can't say "I'll PRE attack them and *if* they lose their DCV then I'll shoot them" any more than you can say "I'll run up and punch him with all my levels on damage unless he dodges, in which case I'll put mine in OCV" It is possible to PRE attack and then delay, to see what their reaction would be, I guess, but then you take the disadvantages of delaying - and hesitating potentially tags you with the disadvantage penalty. To use PRE attacks effectively you have to be Bold! Decisive! Have your healer nearby!

 

 

Y'see here I'm of the opinion that a PRE attack shouldn't even be necessary - it really is a matter of role playing. Unless you are an utter b*****d' date=' you're not going to let Captain Braveheart (a PC) do the dash across no-man's land without backup. That aside, I did say that a movement action would be GENERALLY less impressive - but you've picked a good example of when it works well.[/quote']

 

I dunno about that - in war plenty of bold charges have petered out when the lads have decided "**** this for a game of pixies - I'm going back in me 'ole" PRE - and the ability to mobilise the minions is the mark of a true leader. And of course reputation figures into that too. If Captain Flashhard is rumored to be the only one who ever comes back from his brave charges, it's very likely he'll end up going over the top by himself pretty shortly. In other words, PRE might be good starting point, but good PRE attacks need deeds, not just words. Roleplaying's important - even crucial - but the PRE attack is the mechanism upon which it's built. As a GM. you might think "Charging the guns is stupid" - but sometimes people do stupid things - the PRE attack gives you a solid mechanism to decide whether or not people act on those impulses.

 

Interesting thought - PRE attacks are almost never going to be used in that kind of 'inspirational' way against PCs: the only time inspirational PRE attacks will be relevant will be to overcome enemy PRE attack results or psychological limitations. To that extent' date=' I don't care much about them because, as GM, what an NPC does is one of the things I control, and I usually make them act in a sensible way given the situation, which takes into account their bravery and psychology. I don't really want to abrogate responsibility for the world to the dice unless it is almost irrelevant to the plot. I don't mind LOOKING like I'm deferring to the dice - but I don't want to actually do it. No, PRE attacks only matter when there is a PC involved and then generally when a PC is trying to influence NPCs or a reasonably major NPC is trying to influence a PC or, sometimes, a PC is trying to influence another PC.[/quote']

 

Why not? I use PRE attacks against my PCs all the time, sometimes in inspirational ways. PCs use it on other PCs the same way - rallying them to fight against foes that have shaken them. An example from recent play - the City magician was trying to persuade the PCs to investigate an area of the ruins. It's close to Puzzle Palace, where the PCs recently had a very nasty experience, and the players don't actually want to go back. Now the City Magician doesn't actually know much about this area (he's too smart to have ever been close to the place, which is why he wants the PCs to go ) so he can't provide any details. However he PRE attacks the players (I describe him as waxing really enthusiastic, walking about waving his arm and talking of their "destiny" etc). He gets a "consider deeply" result. Now I can't just tell the players they have to do what he wants or deeply consider his request - that'd be counterproductive. So instead, I haul out some ideas from the "PCs own heads" mentioning that they have been close to the palace without harm before - as long as they stay out of the ruins of the palace itself, they should be fine, and that the ruins most places have been picked clean by treasure hunters - their best chance of decent loot is probably in the vicinity of places with bad reputations ... In other words, inspiration PRE attacks by NPCs don't dictate what the players decide anymore than they dictate what NPCs decide - but as GM, they give me licence to press the players a bit harder.

 

To an extent' date=' unless you have a character that is built for PRE, and has substantially more than those around him, and given that most heroes and significant NPCs with probably have above average PRE, the whole thing becomes, more often than not, simply a way for the GM to decide on how minor NPCs react. Hmm. Have to think more about that....[/quote']

 

That is, in fact, mostly how it turns out - I'd add the proviso, that in my games at least, it is a way to determine how minor NPCs react in stress situations. An otherwise loyal henchman might crack in the face of imminent dismemberment. But if he's loyal, he'll also probably try to repair the harm as soon as he recovers his balance. It also stands in for leadership. If the players are threatening an NPC henchman of the evil overlord, how he reacts is likely to be strongly influenced not just by prior interactions with his boss, but also by whether the evil overlord is right there.

 

cheers, Mark

[Bartman]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

A (GM) friend of mine encountered a problem about PRESENCE that I hope there is some rule we overlooked that can deal with it. The PC with a multipower slot had an effective Presence of 75+. This allowed him to cower Black Harliquin into submission and thereby ending the adventure somewhat prematurely.

 

His(PC) explanation to this multipower slot was that it was like Gandalf in the 1st movie where Gandalf caused Bilbo to cower in his home when he refused to give up the ring.

 

Any suggestions how to fairly deal with this issue without saying you can't have that or redo your character?

 

Well I am the player in question. The GM just dropped me a note highlighting the thread. So I thought I might respond.

 

For those who are familiar with the scenario, this took place in the amusement park portion of Champions Battlegrounds. The PCs had separated to tackle the various death traps that had been placed everywhere. During all of this two of the PCs were killed (due to GM fiat this was later modified to really badly wounded). And my PC's dunder was really up by the time we reached Black Harlequin. While not a casual killer my PC was certainly not opposed to it. And in this case was leaning toward it being a very good thing.

 

So in we burst on BH, his goons, and their hostages. Hoping to prevent the death of the hostages, I was already thinking of some sort of shock and awe moment. So the spell (which required setup) was already cast. After a short standoff and some posturing, BH sent one of the goons over to kill a hostage. I used a saved phase and eviscerated him (21 DC killing attack against an unarmored opponent). Then I pull my PRE-attack. "Surrender now and you will live. But if any of these hostages gets so much as a paper-cut and you will all envy him [pointing at the fallen goon] for the rest of your very short lives" (or something similar, this was about 6 years ago and the memory is weak). For this I had a base 18 PRE + 25 PRE from the spell (not bad I grant you but hardly 75). But the GM did give me just about every bonus available (reputation, extremely violent action, soliloquy, target in retreat, etc) that accounted for at least another 12d6. At which point BH did surrender. Now this hardly ended the encounter prematurely. One way or another it would have ended within 2 segments.

 

I don't think this was really in any way abusive.

1- The character had had that power for over two years of game play, and this was the first use. So I was hardly overusing it.

2- The power had been approved by the GM. In fact at one point I had asked about having it be 50 points, and he recommended the 25 point level. And the moment he asked for it to be removed, it was removed from the character. It was hardly vital to the character, but given how broody/intense/dark/mysterious the character was, I thought some sort of Boo! power was appropriate.

3- Likewise an Aid or Succor wouldn't have changed much. Succor would have reduced it by 1.5d6. And if allowed, the PC's spell multipower had a 50-pt pool. I could have achieved that 25 points of effect with no problem. Anyway the situational bonuses were what drove attack not the PRE itself.

4- It was in no way out of line for the power level of the campaign. I had a teammate who punched for 25 DCs and on a move through reached 38 DCs (43 if he haymakered it). And could comfortably take similar attacks. My PC was strictly second tier in power.

5- It was highly appropriate for the moment.

6- As a player all I was really hoping for was to scare the goons, and cause BH to pause and give me enough time to counter anything he did. Had BH made a move against a hostage, I was intending to wipe him out.

 

But frankly the only remotely rational thing for BH to do was surrender. The PC team was a very well known quantity at that point. He had to have known he couldn't run, the surviving PCs all had great movement and senses. And he couldn't beat us. He had basically killed Batman and Robin and now had a vengeful and infuriated Superman and Thor all up in his face. If the PRE attack is what caused him to surrender, it was in my mind a good thing.

 

And to the best of my recollection he still remains the only villain to surrender to us. In general even the Viper agents were suicidally fanatic.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Sounds appropriate as described: you flung a 20+d6 PRE attack, and that would make anyone with less than 40 PRE surrender. If there is a problem there is is not the level of PRE so much as the generosity of the bonuses. Mind you in a game where characters can manage 43 DC at a push, and 20+DCs of damage as general attacks (21 DC killing: that's 25 killing Body damage, and 25DC punch gives you 87 stun on average) you're looking at pretty monstrous characters, compared to the levels I usually play at.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Sounds appropriate as described: you flung a 20+d6 PRE attack' date=' and that would make anyone with less than 40 PRE surrender. If there is a problem there is is not the level of PRE so much as the generosity of the bonuses. Mind you in a game where characters can manage 43 DC at a push, and 20+DCs of damage as general attacks (21 DC killing: that's 25 killing Body damage, and 25DC punch gives you 87 stun on average) you're looking at pretty monstrous characters, compared to the levels I usually play at.[/quote']

 

I think this highlights a significant issue in the discussion - if you bump up DC's for damage, but don't match that in other areas, you will see problems. 20+DC's of mental powers become pretty effective if EGO still hovers at 15 - 20 for the typical target, and a 20+DC PRE attack will be pretty potent if everyone keeps their PRE and EGO in the same range.

[Matt Holck]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

I think the "hesitates for a full phase" is not as potent as

grabbing, entangling, flashing or stunning a target

all of which lower the targets base DCV

[Markdoc]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

I think the "hesitates for a full phase" is not as potent as

grabbing, entangling, flashing or stunning a target

all of which lower the targets base DCV

 

That's been my experience as well - especially in heroic level games - a simple entangle can be a fight-ender.

 

cheers, M ark

[megaplayboy]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

I think this highlights a significant issue in the discussion - if you bump up DC's for damage' date=' but don't match that in other areas, you will see problems. 20+DC's of mental powers become pretty effective if EGO still hovers at 15 - 20 for the typical target, and a 20+DC PRE attack will be pretty potent if everyone keeps their PRE and EGO in the same range.[/quote']

 

Or you wind up with some characters who closely model conventional archetypes(uber-brick, uber-blaster, uber-mentalist, etc.) and others who spread their xp evenly to be more well-rounded--not overwhelming in any one area, but not having any particular weaknesses, either (e.g. the "Batgod" from, oh, any issue of JLA the past decade or so).

[torchwolf]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Very interesting points have been made here, in fact so many I'll just bring up a few points:

 

 

• PRE Attacks taking no time: Interaction Skill Rolls could well fall under 6E1 55: Half Phase Action.
  
• HAP and PRE Attacks (6E2 288): This is useful in dire needs, assuming you use HAPs.
  
• Opposed Rolls: To make PRE Attacks quicker to use, you could apply just the base dice against a group, and instead of modifying +/-d6, you could use Standard Effect for individual effects, including adding the equivalent of 2d6 (+/-6 using Standard Effect) for an EGO Roll made by half by target.
  
• Opposed Skill Rolls: In some situations, it might be appropriate to allow the target the use of, for instance, Persuasion vs Persuasion, if that is used as part of the PRE Attack (oh, he's using that approach - I did that last week).
  
• sfx on PRE Attacks: I think Striking Appearance fits this, and certainly some characters updated to 6E could use shifting some of their Presence into this instead (for 5th edition, limited PRE could also be utilized more, maybe as an adjunct to COM).
  

All in all, this is a very fruitful discussion I think.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

HAPs?

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Looking at the characteristics in 6e, I'm stunned that DEX costs twice as much as INT and PRE. All three enhance yoiur abilty at a suite of skills, so they have that in common. Each provides another ability, being combat order, perception and PRE attack and defense, respectively. Of those three, I suggest PRE attack and defense is the most valuable. NO WAY is it substantially less valuable than combat order. Initially, I felt the answer was DEX should be 1 point, but I think the better answer is that PRE and INT should be 2 points. As well, PRE defense should be removed from PRE and added to EGO only (being impressive does not make you less susceptible to others' impressiveness, plus this would motivate non-mentalists to still be strong-willed individuals - ie heroes).

 

My group did all that in addition to making STR, EGO, and CON cost 2 points, and it's been working pretty well, but we're still not sure if we should up amount of starting points as well. We also removed the mandatory limitation on HA since it now costs half of what strength does, so now we can build throwing Mjolnir as a ranged HA without any balance issues.

[torchwolf]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

HAPs?

Heroic Action Points, can also be found in Pulp Hero in a slightly less extensive treatment than in 6E.