The Overbearing Presence

[Markdoc]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

I think we've more or less run this one its course. Sean, you seem to argue that yes, Flash can be exactly as devastating as PRE, but that doesn't matter because the defence is fairly common. Hugh, I and some others are saying that a really high PRE can be just as devastating as Flash ... but it doesn't matter because the defence is fairly common (and certainly published Hero product seem to bear that out). PRE defence (a 10 point investment just in defence would net you +20 PRE) makes you essentially all but immune to PRE attacks from a 60 PRE person. In that regard PRE and defence tends to scale extremely well with the other examples you give above.

 

All this is telling me is that we run games differently and what you consider "the norm" simply isn't the case in the games we run. That doesn't mean the rules are unbalanced - in fact, they don't seem to be, in play. It just means that in cases where Flash defence is rare, and people are not prepared for it, Flash will seem overly powerful. In cases where the various defences against PRE attacks are rare, and people are not prepared for it, a big PRE attack will seem overly powerful. In games where rDEF is low, killing attacks will seem overly powerful, etc.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

What causes me issues with PRE attacks more than anything is the ease of use (use it anytime, even if it is not your go, don't bother rolling to hit, hit as many as you like) and the fact that, unlike every other attack, it doesn't have a defence you don't have to build for yourself. It simply doesn't seem to work like other Hero stuff. I'm not necessarily adverse to diverse mechanisms, but this is a relatively big bit of rule: several pages are devoted to PRE attacks alone, but it remains a very wooly mechanic - which is probably why different people see it and use it and appreciate it in such varying degrees.

 

I'm sure your games do run differently to mine, and that character builds are different too, but I still think that the PRE mechanism could be substantially improved to even out some of the bumps that I and many others have encountered with it. I was hoping to have more of a discussion on how people actually do deal with PRE attacks and perhaps kick round some alternative mechanisms or refinements to the existing one, but we seem to have gone another way, and there seems little point in going further.

[dmjalund]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

IMHO what we need is an easy to digest, guilt free low calorie cheap and easily available to (almost) anyone Presence Defense (100% Non fat)

[Matt Holck]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

+20 presence character is stunned for a full phase (although not at half DCV not have they taken any actual damage0

and +30 presence character is knock out of combat

seem to be the categories people are focusing on.

 

 

mind control is not effective

the free ego break out roll before the power takes any effect is redundant as ego values have already been contested to determine effect

 

A breakout ego roll against presence attacks after the first segment seems like a good idea

with another break out each time increment (turn, minute, 5 minutes, hour...) with a culminative +1 bonus to each roll down the time chart.

 

more latter

gotta go to work

[schir1964]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

What I've always found to be difficult with implementing PRE as written and other Mind Control type powers (yes, I do consider PRE in that group, and I exclude Mental Blasts from the group) is that they don't work well in most of the games I would want to run. I would like to have Mental Attacks be rare and something to be feared.

 

I can make the Mental Attacks be rare by limiting access to such powers, but in order for them to be feared I need to make sure that Mental Defenses are even rarer. So I can tell you from my experience that this does not work well at all since the Mental Attack characters will dominate.

 

However, the same is not true for Killing Attacks. I can make killing attacks rare, but I don't have to make the Defenses rarer to keep killing attacks as something to be feared, and I don't have any problems with getting that to work well since the Killing Attack characters do not seem to dominate.

 

The main reason why this seems to be the case is that with Mental Attack characters the people they attack and succeed against can become an extension of themselves for whatever endeavor they want to achieve.

 

Now PRE is in between these two in this regard, but it is even worse to implement since the "defense" is not separate from the "attack" by itself and unlike Resistant Defenses, there is very few non-contrived reasons why the general populace would have access to or be inclined to have elevated PRE values (including the PCs), especially since the whole idea that extra-sensory Mental Influence type abilities are supposed to be rare in these type games, which there are many.

 

So for games where Mental Influence type powers are considered common and thus their defense is common, they work just fine.

But for games where they are supposed to be rare, not so much. And PRE doubly so.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[torchwolf]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

What causes me issues with PRE attacks more than anything is the ease of use (use it anytime, even if it is not your go, don't bother rolling to hit, hit as many as you like) and the fact that, unlike every other attack, it doesn't have a defence you don't have to build for yourself. It simply doesn't seem to work like other Hero stuff. I'm not necessarily adverse to diverse mechanisms, but this is a relatively big bit of rule: several pages are devoted to PRE attacks alone, but it remains a very wooly mechanic - which is probably why different people see it and use it and appreciate it in such varying degrees.

 

I'm sure your games do run differently to mine, and that character builds are different too, but I still think that the PRE mechanism could be substantially improved to even out some of the bumps that I and many others have encountered with it. I was hoping to have more of a discussion on how people actually do deal with PRE attacks and perhaps kick round some alternative mechanisms or refinements to the existing one, but we seem to have gone another way, and there seems little point in going further.

Personally, I would like to return to that part of the discussion.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Looking at 'result' mechanisms, the four main systems you could employ are:

 

1. An all-or nothing dice total against a total

2. A cumulative dice total against a total

3. An opposed roll using 'Body dice' totals or absolute totals

4. An opposed 'skill type' roll

 

PRE attacks use an all-or nothing dice total. Although I like the idea of cumulative attacks for mental powers, I'm not sure it works well for PRE attacks - they do not seem cumulative by nature, most of them anyway - although I could see using an extended PRE attack as a longer term social tool.

 

An opposed roll seems like something worth exploring to me though - first of all it scales better - you don't get the problem that higher levels of PRE in a game generally make PRE attacks less effective (eg if everyone has 30 PRE, you need at least 9 points from bonus dice to have any impact with a PRE attack, whereas if everyone has 10 PRE, you only need 3 points from bonus dice. Secondly it allows, certainly if you use opposed 3d6 rolls, for a broader range of individual impact. Opposed PRE rolls might also allow complementary skills: addressing a crowd - use oratory - resisting intimidation, use an EGO roll. You can take that into account with bonus dice, but this allows for more precise modeling. Finally 3d6 is nice and quick to roll and interpret. Of course this could and would also mean tha you react differently to similar PRE attacks on different occasions - occasionally you'll blow a roll - but it doesn't seem unrealistic that even the smoothest composure can crack sometimes - and not always when you'd expect it to.

 

So, I'd suggest that a PRE attack mechanism could work well as opposed PRE rolls, with effects based on how much you make the roll by. This could be great for a 'gunfighter/samurai' showdown where each is effectively pitting the force of their will/personality against the other to gain a small but significant advantage.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Now looking at your 20 CON 20 PD character with 50 STUN: you have to look at the rest of the build - does the character have a high SPD or DCV' date=' or maybe he has a 30 ED, so is very tough against energy not so much against physical attacks? If so that can mean that he doesn't have to rely on being tough so much - and can recover from being stunned before he suffers too much - but that is because thre are a large number of different factors in 'normal' combat: not so with PRE attacks - hitting is irrelevant, and the characteristic you use to resist PRE attacks is PRE. In other words, a 12d6 EB is not 'horribly unbalanced' because you've picked a character with lower than average characteristics - but 20 PRE is NOT lower than average.[/quote']

 

I believe I noted that the rest of the build was standard. I also have to look at the rest of the build for the PRE affected target. He could have +5 DCV when hesitating from a PRE attack (he automatically dodges) or have a high SPD so hesitation for a pohase is less of an issue.

 

Now what about the 3d6 AoE Flash? Yes it can be very effective' date=' but then Flash defence is not that uncommon and neither are enhanced senses and KNOWING that an opponent uses flash attacks means you can take less effect because the rules allow you to prepare for them, reducing or eliminating the effects. KNOWING an opponent is terrifying doesn't let you find them less terifying: if anything thinking about it is going to make then seem worse. Anyway the problem with AoEs is that you can only use them on opponents that are far enough away from your team - a really big AoE can be incredibly counterproductive. Guess what: PRE attacks don't have that problem...[/quote']

 

So make higher PRE and/or PRE defense more common and suddenly the 60 PRE is not overwhelming. Knowing an opponent has a terrifying PRE might lead to making surprise attacks, attacks at a distance, etc. Tactics can be changed.

 

And who says your allies are immune to your PRE attacks? Are you any less terrifying to them?

 

Looking at 'result' mechanisms, the four main systems you could employ are:

 

1. An all-or nothing dice total against a total

2. A cumulative dice total against a total

3. An opposed roll using 'Body dice' totals or absolute totals

4. An opposed 'skill type' roll

 

PRE attacks use an all-or nothing dice total. Although I like the idea of cumulative attacks for mental powers, I'm not sure it works well for PRE attacks - they do not seem cumulative by nature, most of them anyway - although I could see using an extended PRE attack as a longer term social tool.

 

An opposed roll seems like something worth exploring to me though - first of all it scales better - you don't get the problem that higher levels of PRE in a game generally make PRE attacks less effective (eg if everyone has 30 PRE, you need at least 9 points from bonus dice to have any impact with a PRE attack, whereas if everyone has 10 PRE, you only need 3 points from bonus dice. Secondly it allows, certainly if you use opposed 3d6 rolls, for a broader range of individual impact. Opposed PRE rolls might also allow complementary skills: addressing a crowd - use oratory - resisting intimidation, use an EGO roll. You can take that into account with bonus dice, but this allows for more precise modeling. Finally 3d6 is nice and quick to roll and interpret. Of course this could and would also mean tha you react differently to similar PRE attacks on different occasions - occasionally you'll blow a roll - but it doesn't seem unrealistic that even the smoothest composure can crack sometimes - and not always when you'd expect it to.

 

So does this solve the problem? That 60 PRE attacker, with his PRE roll of 21-, will succeed by 8, on average, compared to the 20 PRE target. If we're going to let equal PRE characters have any impact on one another, that 60 PRE attacker will have a significant impact on 20 PRE targets pretty much all of the time - just like 12d6 will typically average over 40 rolled. I think your comments on a "small but significant advantage" indicates you want to change the results of success, but that can be done with the current mechanic as well.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

...........................

So does this solve the problem? That 60 PRE attacker, with his PRE roll of 21-, will succeed by 8, on average, compared to the 20 PRE target. If we're going to let equal PRE characters have any impact on one another, that 60 PRE attacker will have a significant impact on 20 PRE targets pretty much all of the time - just like 12d6 will typically average over 40 rolled. I think your comments on a "small but significant advantage" indicates you want to change the results of success, but that can be done with the current mechanic as well.

 

It may not solve it on its own but discussing the options is always a good thing. What this does is addresses the issue - if you see it as an issue - that as the campaign spends more on PRE, PRE becomes less useful. The results you get with this though - well, it gives you options: what if, and this is off the top of my head, you suffered a 2 DEX penalty for every point your PRE roll was beaten by? If that would halve your effective DEX, you can not take an offensive action for a half phase, if it exceeds your DEX, then you can not take an offensive action for a full phase, and if it is more than double your DEX, you can not take an offensive action for 2 phases...etc. That seems like a fairer - and more granular approach, doesn't? Whilst you could do something like that with the current system, it wouldn;t look like the current system when you'd finished.

 

Also I think PRE ought to have sfx: when you buy it you decide what it represents: sexiness, awesomeness, trustworthyness, leadership, bravery - whatever - and you get bonuses or penalties depending on whether or not you use PRE in accordance with those sfx. Similarly you could have a range of different effects that you are trying for - the above example is hesitation in attacking you, but perhaps you could OPT for an alternative - the result determines how far (or for how long) an enemy must retreat...or for rallying troops the result could determine temporary combat bonus levels, or somesuch - getting the sort of result range you do with opposed 3d6 rolls leaves much more open in utilising such a system.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

....................

 

And who says your allies are immune to your PRE attacks? Are you any less terrifying to them?

 

6.2.135 says that PRE attacks affect everyone who can see and/or hear them so long as they are intended for them - so you can decide who you affect - which is very powerful mojo.

[Matt Holck]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

there has been some talk focusing on

the stunning and knock out effects of presence attacks.

But a presence attack is more than just a shocking verbal and visual assault.

The problem is in combat situations a player will always opt for "stunning" because that option is so cheap.

 

A quick fix would be to increase the stun steps to 15 points each

Pre +15 hesitate 1/2 phase

Pre +30 hesitate full phase

Pre +45 hesitate full turn

 

then allow other defined and discussed effects to be bought for the points over defense of the character being presence attacked

 

 

 

 

 

Presence attacks should roll to hit as an ego attack

 

-1d6 for each doubling of the number of targets presence attacked

+1d6 for each doubling of the number of attackers making the presence attack

[schir1964]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

I think comparing PRE vs PRE rolls (like STR vs STR) could also work, but you would have to figure what success/failure results mean and their effects.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Ice9]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Of those, I would actually go with 3, the opposed roll using dice Body. It achieves the same results as 4, but with less variance, which I think is desirable. Often, Presence goals can be thought of in terms of consistency - "Mr. Terror should always be able to panic average bystanders", "The Golem shouldn't be frightened by any force short of Cosmic Power", and so forth. More variance means you have to aim higher to achieve that.

[Matt Holck]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

I think comparing PRE vs PRE rolls (like STR vs STR) could also work, but you would have to figure what success/failure results mean and their effects.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

except that won't leave a lot of points to play around with

 

Interrupting a perception roll

This is the classic maneuver of trying to keep the target from noticing something or someone else.

every 2 points past threshold gives the target -1 to its perception to notice a particular object for one sense

or every 3 points past threshold gives the target -1 to its perception to notice a particular object for all senses

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

It may not solve it on its own but discussing the options is always a good thing. What this does is addresses the issue - if you see it as an issue - that as the campaign spends more on PRE' date=' PRE becomes less useful. The results you get with this though - well, it gives you options: what if, and this is off the top of my head, you suffered a 2 DEX penalty for every point your PRE roll was beaten by? If that would halve your effective DEX, you can not take an offensive action for a half phase, if it exceeds your DEX, then you can not take an offensive action for a full phase, and if it is more than double your DEX, you can not take an offensive action for 2 phases...etc. That seems like a fairer - and more granular approach, doesn't? Whilst you could do something like that with the current system, it wouldn;t look like the current system when you'd finished.[/quote']

 

Except that now PRE is less useful as campaign average DEX rises, since lower DEX scores makes it easier to halve the target's DEX. I'm also not sure 2 points for every point beaten is effective. Looking at those Supers again, this means the fellow with 60 PRE wins by 8 (on average) against targets with 20 PRE or EGO, subtracting 16 from their DEX. That will cost most Champions characters a half phase action. Loss of a full phase action requires a win by 12, which seems very unlikely. A typical character with that 20 PRE and, say, a 4 point bonus from great circumstances to make the PRE attack will win by an average of 4, subtracting 8 DEX and having no significant effect other than a slight hesitation, although that's not too different from the status quo (28 rolled beats PRE, but not even by 10).

 

Transport this to a Heroic game where DEX is lower. A win by 8 means loss of 16 DEX - most characters lose a half phase, but many will lose a full phase. A win by 4 will cost many targets a half phase.

 

Also I think PRE ought to have sfx: when you buy it you decide what it represents: sexiness' date=' awesomeness, trustworthyness, leadership, bravery - whatever - and you get bonuses or penalties depending on whether or not you use PRE in accordance with those sfx. Similarly you could have a range of different effects that you are trying for - the above example is hesitation in attacking you, but perhaps you could OPT for an alternative - the result determines how far (or for how long) an enemy must retreat...or for rallying troops the result could determine temporary combat bonus levels, or somesuch - getting the sort of result range you do with opposed 3d6 rolls leaves much more open in utilising such a system.[/quote']

 

However, this makes being, say, both brave and trustworthy much more expensive. At present, PRE serves triple duty - it makes you scary, persuasive and resistant to those traits in others. Perhaps having PRE that only makes you persuasive (only enhances interaction skills) should be a limitation, not the standard.

[Lucius]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

The first problem I see with opposed rolls is that it slows up the game.

 

In the case of some person PRE attacking a crowd of a hundred, it slows up the game a LOT.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Slow palindromedary

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Of those' date=' I would actually go with 3, the opposed roll using dice Body. It achieves the same results as 4, but with less variance, which I think is desirable. Often, Presence goals can be thought of in terms of consistency - "Mr. Terror should always be able to panic average bystanders", "The Golem shouldn't be frightened by any force short of Cosmic Power", and so forth. More variance means you have to aim higher to achieve that.[/quote']

 

It bears looking at, but that is part of my objection: if you get a crowd of 100 normals, all exposed to Mr Terror's fear attack, it is possible that a few might not flee in terror (although they might, quite rationally, decide to flee...). The current system and the Normal Body roll, certainly when you are talking about largish numbers of dice give very consistent results, and I'm not convinced that human reactions are that predictable. The other advantage of 3d6 is it is always quick to roll...

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

The first problem I see with opposed rolls is that it slows up the game.

 

In the case of some person PRE attacking a crowd of a hundred, it slows up the game a LOT.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Slow palindromedary

 

Well two people each rolling 3d6 and totaling is probably quicker than one person rolling 9d6 and totaling.

 

Rolling for every target is a separate issue but 3d6 will still be quicker in most cases. To an extent it doesn't matter though - because PRE attacks are only rarely going to be used against VERY large numbers of people (and then they are you can use a single roll, and use a 3d6 probability chart to work out how many of the crowd would have rolled a 6 and how many would have rolled a 12 and apply the results that way). There is always an issue of play speed against 'realistic' reactions. One thing I'd suggest is that a crowd is probably more likely to react as an 'average roll' so you could (say) divide the crowd into groups (a crowd of 100 might get 5 rolls, for example) and apply those rolls to groups within the group - some might panic some might hold.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Except that now PRE is less useful as campaign average DEX rises, since lower DEX scores makes it easier to halve the target's DEX. I'm also not sure 2 points for every point beaten is effective. Looking at those Supers again, this means the fellow with 60 PRE wins by 8 (on average) against targets with 20 PRE or EGO, subtracting 16 from their DEX. That will cost most Champions characters a half phase action. Loss of a full phase action requires a win by 12, which seems very unlikely. A typical character with that 20 PRE and, say, a 4 point bonus from great circumstances to make the PRE attack will win by an average of 4, subtracting 8 DEX and having no significant effect other than a slight hesitation, although that's not too different from the status quo (28 rolled beats PRE, but not even by 10).

 

Transport this to a Heroic game where DEX is lower. A win by 8 means loss of 16 DEX - most characters lose a half phase, but many will lose a full phase. A win by 4 will cost many targets a half phase.

 

True, although I might point out that in superhero games, where SPD is higher, the loss of 1/2 or even a full phase has less overall impact.

 

This, though, is why we might want to have a range of possible different results, not simply limited to loss of reaction.

 

Also, it is worth noting that, whilst you might get 60 PRE v 20 PRE in a superhero game, in a heroic game you are not likely to get the same sort of gap: if heroes average 20 PRE, it is unlikely, unless you are playing Cthulu stuff, that anyone will have or be able to justify a 60 PRE - so the genre itself will even out a lot of the inequities. That would mean that the situation you describe is less likely. Of course, with a 3d6 roll you can get more extreme results more often and so your objection is valid in that 'good' rolls will have more proportional effect in heroic games, but, like I said, they do anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

However' date=' this makes being, say, both brave and trustworthy much more expensive. At present, PRE serves triple duty - it makes you scary, persuasive and resistant to those traits in others. Perhaps having PRE that only makes you persuasive (only enhances interaction skills) should be a limitation, not the standard.[/quote']

 

PRE makes you scary, persuasive, charming, sexy, intimidating, believable, brave, trustworthy...in fact it makes you every positive human trait. That should be expensive. If you want to be able to blast with both fire and ice it costs more.

 

The objection your raise is a valid one, however, this is easily solved: pick an 'attack' trait and a 'defence' trait (to be honest defence traits are probably a lot thinner on the ground) and you can add another trait for (say) 5 points, a sort of specialism. If you do not have the trait that is relevant then your PRE is reduced (halved possibly) in that particular situation - so someone who is charming is less effective at threatening to break your legs for you, and someone who is intimidating is less likely to get you to trust them - but you CAN be both charming and intimidating without having to pay for your PRE twice.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

One thing that did occur to me is that it is silly to allow a bonus for a PRE attack if you make an appropriate interaction skill roll - whatever the mechanism you use. The reason is that you are using PRE twice: you get the benefit of the PRE when you roll the attack dice AND (if you have high PRE) you are almost certain to get a bonus tot he attack for making an appropriate PRE skill roll - it is double dipping.

 

If you use a 3d6 roll you get round that by, say, using an Oratory roll instead of a basic PRE roll: in fact you might decide that PRE atatcks should always be based on appropriate skill rolls, with a penalty if you do not have the appropriate skill - which - at least in part - addresses the 'sfx' issue I mentioned above: if you want to convince a crowd to leave the area without panicking, but you do not have Oratory, then you take a -3 'unfamiliar' penalty tot he roll.

[Markdoc]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

A breakout ego roll against presence attacks after the first segment seems like a good idea

with another break out each time increment (turn, minute, 5 minutes, hour...) with a culminative +1 bonus to each roll down the time chart.

 

Ummm... you do know that the rules already include EGO rolls to negate the effect of PRe attacks, yes? EGO has been a permissible defence against PRE attacks, for a long time.

 

Cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

6.2.135 says that PRE attacks affect everyone who can see and/or hear them so long as they are intended for them - so you can decide who you affect - which is very powerful mojo.

 

To some extent - if you go "Fear me!", aiming to scare all the bad guys in the area, you will also affect nearby allies (though at a reduced level, as per the rules). If you are trying to intimidate a bad guy to open a door for you, that's not going to affect the bad guys peering down form the upper windows. Targetting with PRE attacks is a pretty blunt instrument.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

Ummm... you do know that the rules already include EGO rolls to negate the effect of PRe attacks, yes? EGO has been a permissible defence against PRE attacks, for a long time.

 

Cheers, Mark

 

The option to use PRE or EGO as a defence has been removed as a basic rule, but sidebarred back in as an option (as is using INT or other characteristics, for certain types of effect). The use of EGO rolls to negate effects is very much a 'if the GM thinks it appropriate' thing and the wording doesn't make it entirely clear if that applies to both combat and non-combat effects. EGO rolls, if they are used to resist PRE attacks work in the opposite way to mental power breakout rolls - the higher the level of PRE attack the more difficult it is to make an EGO rolls - with mental powers the higher the level of effect you are aiming for the more likely a breakout roll will succeed.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

To some extent - if you go "Fear me!", aiming to scare all the bad guys in the area, you will also affect nearby allies (though at a reduced level, as per the rules). If you are trying to intimidate a bad guy to open a door for you, that's not going to affect the bad guys peering down form the upper windows. Targetting with PRE attacks is a pretty blunt instrument.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Although 'All those who oppose me, know fear!' is a pretty easy way to exclude your own (hopefully loyal) troops from the effect. The rules actually say that the PRE attack affects those it was intended for.

[Markdoc]

Re: The Overbearing Presence

 

If we were talking about what we'd want to see in PRE attacks mechanics-wise, here's what I'd want to see:

 

1. It must not be an attack action, as that rules out being impressive or scary while doing something. It doesn't necessarily have to be free as it is now, but at most a half-phase action, and preferably zero-phase

2. There needs to be some method for rapidly degrading effectiveness. I don't want people to be "continually awesome" - in other words a kind of "shock and awe" effect.

3. It needs to be heavily modifiable by situational modifiers - re-use modifier would solve problem #2 above.

4. It should have some combat effect, but that effect should not be overwhelming or result in long-term effects

 

That said, I have no particular problem with using a skill vs skill roll instead of the current mechanism. I can't see any particular advantage to it, but neither can I see any particular disadvantage. One difference is that you could use a PRE attack as a complementary to an interaction skill (the current mechanism simulates that by giving a small bonus for a successful PRE attack, but it's not precisely the same).

 

cheers, Mark