Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

[Alcamtar]

OK got a question.

 

A player in my Fantasy Hero game is creating a Priest who requires a Faith Skill Roll for his powers.

 

I said Faith should be based on EGO, but he argued that Faith should be based on PRE. He said faith is based on courage and humble obedience, not willpower. His theological argument is good, but I question whether that is really modeled by PRE.

 

This is complicated by the fact that the definintions of EGO/PRE seem to have changed in 6e. In 5e, Presence attacks could be resisted by either EGO or PRE whichever was higher; EGO represented fortitude and self-control, while PRE represented attitude and self-esteem ("I'm just as bad as you are!") At least that's how I understood it.

 

But in 6e, Presence attacks are resisted only by PRE as a default rule, which suggests that PRE also represents fortitude. EGO is still an optional rule, but the emphasis is subtly different, and I think he is reading a lot into that, and also into the conventional association of "ego" with "arrogant pride". (The fact that PRE adds to his "Turn Undead" ability, and he used EGO as a dump stat was probably also a motivating factor )

 

Now his key argument is that his character is humble. He resists fear because he is so humble and obedient that he has no self esteem and takes no thought for his own danger, he is "empty of himself". Since (he argues) PRE is courage and EGO is arrogant self-will, high PRE is the very soul of selfless humility.

 

Now, it seems to me that PRE is the very essence of "arrogant pride" and "being full of yourself." It also seems to me that EGO is the perfect stat to represent selfless, obedient self control. So I think he has these exactly backwards.

 

I'm the GM. It's okay if he wants to build his char that way, and I can certainly exploit his lack of EGO. But for running the game, and for the other characters, I want to have a correct understanding and usage of these abilities.

 

What do you all think?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

I dont think that either EGO or PRE really map to faith. EGO measures the strength of mind to impose and to resist others imposition. PRE measures the strength of spirit to impose and to resist others spirit.

 

For courage, I would use PRE rather than EGO for other things I'd use EGO.

 

Why not suggest a compromise, base it on (EGO + PRE)/2?

 

Doc

[Panpiper]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

Kwai Chang Caine clearly was a humble man. I dare say however he had great strength of will. Lack of pride does not mean lack of 'Ego' as it is used in the Hero System. That said, the fact that Turn Undead is based on Presence is a fair indicator that Presence has more to do with faith than does Ego in the Hero System. Indeed, a television preacher is even used as the very example of presence.

 

It does make great sense to me that will power and self discipline (Ego) should be usable to resist presence attacks. However Presence has mostly to do with self confidence than anything else, and faith can most certainly be a big factor in self confidence.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

Part of the problem is that the characteristics cover pretty broad bases. Personally, I would rather have seen only EGO resist PRE attacks (being impressive is not synonymous with being hard to impress).

 

To the instant problem, I'd say it's reasonable to use either characteristic as the base for "religion" in any specific faith. If it has been defined in your campaign, either for religion in general or for this religion specifically, the answer is to use the established characteristic. If not, then why can't this faith use PRE (forcefulness, charisma, bravery, confidence, bearing and leadership qualities) rather than EGO (mental strength and strength of will)? Of course, resisting temptation may be a challenge (the character has limited willpower), but there will always be a drawback to a low stat, right?

[Vondy]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

I would make it a general skill. An 11- roll at a 3:2 cost ratio.

 

Modifiers would be based on how well he role-plays it.

[pinecone]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

OK got a question.

 

A player in my Fantasy Hero game is creating a Priest who requires a Faith Skill Roll for his powers.

 

I said Faith should be based on EGO, but he argued that Faith should be based on PRE. He said faith is based on courage and humble obedience, not willpower. His theological argument is good, but I question whether that is really modeled by PRE.

 

This is complicated by the fact that the definintions of EGO/PRE seem to have changed in 6e. In 5e, Presence attacks could be resisted by either EGO or PRE whichever was higher; EGO represented fortitude and self-control, while PRE represented attitude and self-esteem ("I'm just as bad as you are!") At least that's how I understood it.

 

But in 6e, Presence attacks are resisted only by PRE as a default rule, which suggests that PRE also represents fortitude. EGO is still an optional rule, but the emphasis is subtly different, and I think he is reading a lot into that, and also into the conventional association of "ego" with "arrogant pride". (The fact that PRE adds to his "Turn Undead" ability, and he used EGO as a dump stat was probably also a motivating factor )

 

Now his key argument is that his character is humble. He resists fear because he is so humble and obedient that he has no self esteem and takes no thought for his own danger, he is "empty of himself". Since (he argues) PRE is courage and EGO is arrogant self-will, high PRE is the very soul of selfless humility.

 

Now, it seems to me that PRE is the very essence of "arrogant pride" and "being full of yourself." It also seems to me that EGO is the perfect stat to represent selfless, obedient self control. So I think he has these exactly backwards.

 

I'm the GM. It's okay if he wants to build his char that way, and I can certainly exploit his lack of EGO. But for running the game, and for the other characters, I want to have a correct understanding and usage of these abilities.

 

What do you all think?

 

I'd have no problem either way....as is I'd penalize the faith caster when he is bummed or otherwise depressed..."Your girl had a big blow up last night, so -1, -2 if you love her..." or "one of the flock is having hard times, hard not to worry" etc...

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

Faith, in my opinion, is a combination of EGO and PRE.

 

EGO is the willpower. To resist temptation is always an EGO roll. To push yourself, physically and emotionally, requires an EGO roll. A humble man can still have a huge EGO stat since it is not necessarily being egotistical. Indeed, it might be easier for him if his cause isn't about himself. Such is the reason for bonuses to EGO roll to save the world.

 

PRE is the persuasive part of will. I want to convince you that smoking isn't bad for you, or that my religion is a good religion to follow. (Persuasion, Oratory) That I am not scared when really I am. (Acting) It is also used in Turning Undead, which I guess represents converting the Undead which is PRE. I can convince you that this is the correct course of action, not because of ME but because of the Greater Good.

 

Hmm, a good cleric really needs to have a high EGO to resist temptation. A successful cleric needs PRE to expand his flock, push back the Undead and convince the spawns of Hell to leave his faithful alone. In short, resisting a succubus' charm is EGO. Commanding that succubus to go away is PRE.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

I'd base it on Ego on the principle that faith is basically a Psychological Limitation ('Follows InsertReligionHere Devoutly"), and thus any ability to overcome that limitation would require an Ego roll.

[McCoy]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

I'd base it on Ego on the principle that faith is basically a Psychological Limitation ('Follows InsertReligionHere Devoutly")' date=' and thus any ability to overcome that limitation would require an Ego roll.[/quote']

That sounds good to me.

[Lucius]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

That sounds good to me.

 

It does?

 

It doesn't make any sense to me.

 

We're not talking about resisting one's own convictions, we're talking about enacting them and being empowered by them.

 

But my suggestion is to give the priest a Contact with their Higher Power, and use that Contact roll as the "Skill Roll" for the powers.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Contact: Palindromedary

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

But my suggestion is to give the priest a Contact with their Higher Power, and use that Contact roll as the "Skill Roll" for the powers.

 

Lucius, you're a genius.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

I'm going Freudian with this

 

ID, the desire effect the world is Presence

Ego, the will to control ones action would be Ego

Super Ego, the learned structures of civilized behavior (please, thank you) would be Wisdom?

[薔薇語]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

Lucius' date=' you're a genius.[/quote']

 

I'm pretty sure he is a "Certified" genius to boot. But don't tell him lest you want his EGO to increase. .

 

La Rose.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

It does?

 

It doesn't make any sense to me.

 

We're not talking about resisting one's own convictions, we're talking about enacting them and being empowered by them.

 

There was a disconnect for me too...

 

But my suggestion is to give the priest a Contact with their Higher Power' date=' and use that Contact roll as the "Skill Roll" for the powers.[/quote']

 

Odd you should say that, I have drafted the contact rules into my plans for Runequest for animist magic (not divine). I think it is a good way forward (well I would wouldn't I?). I guess for divine magic you are simply asking the divine power to turn on the tap rather than to do anything...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

Hmm. Faith (in the Christian tradition) is a gift from God, the ability to believe in the divine.

 

The question to ask is 'what effect does that have in-game'?

 

Well, believe - indeed moral certainty - in a divine being who watches you and rewards or punishes you according to your actions can certainly stiffen your backbone when you are faced with a moral choice.

 

Both EGO and PRE have 'defensive' capabilities. in 6e, EGO no longer substitutes for 'PRE defence'. So, to simulate 'faith' you need both.

 

Faith can cause you to sway crowds, or resist evil powers, but both PRE and EGO can have connotations that do not include humility.

 

So, how about 'Faith: +10 EGO and +10 PRE Only whilst acting within the tenets of Faith (-1/2) Only whilst acting 'Humbly' -1/2 20 Active 10 Real'

 

'Acting within the tenets of Faith' would be 'as you see them' - which means that it is not always going to help you resist temptation if you do not appreciate that you are being led into sin - the Devil if the Lord of Lies, after all, and pride may make you think you are acting in faith - may even strengthen your resolve to walk the slippery path - you know what that goes before.

 

'Only whilst acting humbly' may seem like double dipping - but it prevents you using your boosted EGO and PRE 'offensively' in many cases, and so I think justifies a second limitation. Most religions do not believe much is accomplished by forcing someone to believe - indeed that is almost a contradiction in terms.

 

So, I'm arguing that BOTH PRE and EGO are relevant to 'faith' as defined. They each contribute to your ability to maintain your beliefs and live your life by them. That does not help the OP much - or does it? I'd argue that a 20 EGO could be there as a result of self belief, even arrogance, or as a result of belief in the divine, sustaining the self: if God thinks you are important, who are you to argue? In that way, Faith acts like loyalty. The 'number' assigned to EGO and PRE does not tell you how that characteristic manifests in-game - that is all about sfx.

 

Perhaps it does not matter? Perhaps you could argue that you should define how a high characteristic manifests itself and chose the most appropriate one. 6e allows you to define a roll from the most appropriate of two characteristics.

 

Another idea is not to base a roll on a characteristic at all, but pick a number that best reflects your strength of Faith, and use that: if your faith is strong, use 14-, if it is questionable, use 11-, if it is weak, use 8-...and build the power on that 'set' roll.

 

Otherwise you have to make a decision which characteristic bes describes 'Faith'. If I had to pick one, I'd pick EGO, but both have elements that could be argued as being granted by 'faith', and so any such decision would be at least part arbitratry. Of course in those situations the GM always wins

[Steve]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

I'd actually make an argument that FAITH should be a new stat toolkitted in, costed the same as PRE. One could have a high PRE but not believe in anything religious, and one could have a strong will (EGO) and not believe in anything religious. By making FAITH its own characteristic, you can have low-PRE or low-EGO individuals who could have a high FAITH stat. That FAITH stat could be affected by Aids (Divine blessings) or Drains (Temptations or Curses). It could be used as a Complementary roll when using skills that would be affected by faith.

[Fearghus]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

Having a high ego or a high presence has nothing at all to do with faith

 

A pious person can be weak willed and uncharismatic

An atheist can be determined and charming

 

I am pretty sure I know several atheists that if made into hero character would have both a high ego and presence, and I know lots of pious people who if made into hero characters would have low ego and presence. So if a faith roll is required I like the idea of making it it's own stat

[Manic Typist]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

You're right, he's wrong.

 

EGO to me is faith, while PRE is your ability to preach it, to put it in very simplistic terms.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

super ego is your psych lims(compilations)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

Having a high ego or a high presence has nothing at all to do with faith

 

A pious person can be weak willed and uncharismatic

An atheist can be determined and charming

 

I am pretty sure I know several atheists that if made into hero character would have both a high ego and presence, and I know lots of pious people who if made into hero characters would have low ego and presence. So if a faith roll is required I like the idea of making it it's own stat

 

 

True...but...the fact that a faithful person may be weak willed and uncharismactic does not matter - when they are acting on something as a matter of faith they may be able to resist all sorts of temptations, and that is what 'faith' simulates - the ability - in certain circumstances - to act outside your normal self. Therefore, whilst a true believer could be weak willed and uncharismatic, when the spirit fills them they become able to resist almost any temptation and sway unbelievers with the strength of their conviction. In game terms it is having high EGO and PRE but only for certain purposes.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

I'd actually make an argument that FAITH should be a new stat toolkitted in' date=' costed the same as PRE. One could have a high PRE but not believe in anything religious, and one could have a strong will (EGO) and not believe in anything religious. By making FAITH its own characteristic, you can have low-PRE or low-EGO individuals who could have a high FAITH stat. That FAITH stat could be affected by Aids (Divine blessings) or Drains (Temptations or Curses). It could be used as a Complementary roll when using skills that would be affected by faith.[/quote']

 

There's sense in what you say but I do not like adding characteristics because they dilute the point pool (unless you get rid of something else) and usually require a slew of house rules to properly integrate. Also, unless it is a characteristic that a lot of the players will be using - or at least a lot of the inhabitants of the game world - you run the risk of being seen as playing favourites with certain character types.

 

It might well be a decent idea to have a new general skill: Faith. Being a general skill it is worth what you pay - it is not related to other stats. Perhaps every 2 points you make a faith roll by gives you +5 EGO and PRE for converting the unbeliever or resisting temptation (and the GM can give a bonus or penalty to the roll depending on the situation in which you are using it).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

The first and most important question is 'What will Faith do in the game?'

 

Answer that and you will have a good idea how to simulate it.

[IKerensky]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

Actually, the Bible (not a bad reference about faith ) define it as "the firm believe in invisible things we know will be happening but that we are not deemed to see". For me that sound a lot more like a mix of INT and EGO than pure PRE.

 

Turn Undead is not a good example as it is a demonstration of your capacity to project your believe in order to convince others (here undead) to act (here fly, turn or disappear),this it is logically related to PRE. Gettting a miracle done by asking directly (and usually meekly) to the higher power is more of a ask and thou shalt receive thing and thus an EGO.

[Markdoc]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

It might well be a decent idea to have a new general skill: Faith. Being a general skill it is worth what you pay - it is not related to other stats. Perhaps every 2 points you make a faith roll by gives you +5 EGO and PRE for converting the unbeliever or resisting temptation (and the GM can give a bonus or penalty to the roll depending on the situation in which you are using it).

 

For my games, faith is simply something you have or not - at high levels it's worth a disadvantage/complication, which will (properly played) inhibit your ability to do certain forbidden things or encourage you to do certain other things, but also armour you against temptations/mind control to do those things that are forbidden. As for faith-based magic, that's a power skill roll. A mage who learns spells by rote and diligent study might base his power skill roll off INT - a priest who runs on faith might base it on EGO or PRE. That's up to the GM or religion in question. Shucks, if you were priest of the god of might, the GM might even base it on STR: the stronger you are in faith the stronger you actually become. Converting the heathen by persuasion is simply a social skill roll (oratory/persuasion, etc) which may or may not be affected by divine assistance (floating in the air radiating a holy radiance that heals the sick is likely to give you a bonus when you try to persuade people that you have divine backing).

 

Of course, it's an open question of how much "faith" means when people can manifest such powers. At that point it becomes more like "knowledge".

 

cheers, Mark

[torchwolf]

Re: Faith, Courage and Humble Obedience

 

The first and most important question is 'What will Faith do in the game?'

 

Answer that and you will have a good idea how to simulate it.

 

This Very Important Question is for some reason seldom put at the top of a thread.

 

Some ideas on the default Characteristics:

 

 

• PRE: Adjustments (encompassing more than Adjustment Powers) to PRE are mostly used for generating fear-based attacks (Change Environment, Adjustment Powers) but is also suggested as the Characteristic to target with Spiritual Transforms (i.e., representing the soul). This might make it suitable as numerically representing the "soul" of a character (as noted above in this thread).
  
• EGO: While this is the other Mental Characteristic in the system, it is (under 6E) not used to resist PRE Attacks; instead it usually is applied as a Char Roll to overcome personal flaws or limits (Breakout Rolls, EGO Rolls resist PRE Attack effects, overcome Psychological Complications, etc.) and for resisting some outside influences (assumed here to use the character's willpower to do so). This might make it suitable for overcoming temptations (also as noted above in this thread).
  

 

Assuming PRE and EGO represents different aspects of faith, I would agree with Sean about the Faith Skill, bought as Aid to either or both of those Char or extra points of PRE/EGO, Requires A Roll (Faith Skill). Extra PRE can also be used for the classic inspirational abilities of a determined priest facing Evil and such.

Looking briefly at The Exorcist and similar movies, it could be argued that these religious rituals help a devout priest access his Faith (the Skill Roll), and it could even be argued that some additional PRE and/or EGO be bought with Costs END.

Personally, I am not certain that a Only When Acting In God's Interests is a viable Limitation to any faith-related extra PRE/EGO regardless of build; faith should probably be available when the character needs it most.

 

Another way to go would be Striking Appearance (Faithful) which would apply to certain evil and/or supernatural beings.

A new Talent, Resist Temptation could also be used (based on Resistance), for increasing the defensive/willpower aspect of faith; possibly a Resist Horror of Evil (applied to the EGO Roll for circumventing the effects of PRE Attacks).

 

Generally, what constitutes a Faith ability in game terms should probably be able to counteract fearful effects of supernatural evil, so the choice of mechanics might be decided in part on what mechanics those evils use to scare people (Adjustment Powers and Spiritual Transforms might suggest that Faith has Power Defense; Change Environment might just suggest limited extra PRE/EGO; etc.).

 

NOTE 1: Any miracle abilities built on a Faith ability should probably not manifest in an overly obvious manner, or the Faith effectively become a Certainty (no need for belief when you have proof).

EDIT: As Markdoc pointed out while I was writing my post.

 

NOTE 2: In most campaigns, whether the character "saw her face" or not should probably not affect the character's religious beliefs for these purposes.

 

These are some of my beliefs about Faith.