Alas, no more Independent!

[Alcamtar]

Re: Alas, no more Independent!

 

I don't understand the whole idea that "if something exists someone has to have paid points for it".

 

I think the disconnect is that we have a system for it. It's like with D&D 3E, when everyone complained it took to long to prepare for a game because you had to construct monsters like characters, assign all their skills and feats and stuff, derive a correct challenge rating, and also make sure the treasure was within guidelines. The usual answer to this was: just make it up, nobody will know the difference. But making it up pretty much defeated the whole point of playing 3E in the first place. Might as well go back to playing 1E. And how did 4E fix this? Largely by dropping the complex build system and reverting to "make it up".

 

Even so, it might not be an issue, except that Hero has a long tradition of statting up everything. Weapons, armor, vehicles, bases, gadgets, even Talents are build as powers and a point cost can be determined. If Hero had a tradition of handwaving some things it would be a lot easier to ignore the system, but it feels weird as a GM to handwave stuff when you're the only one doing it. Also I suspect that most of us who play Hero aren't big on handwaving stuff, or we'd have chosen to a different game.

 

My "other" favorite games are D&D and Fudge. Both of those are handwavy games. Both are a lot easier to play, and Fudge at least can do anything Hero can do, you just have to make it up instead of having a metasystem to do it. The ONLY reason to use Hero is because I want to use the metasystem to build stuff, instead of just making it up. (Well, and because I also want to roll huge handfulls of damage dice!!)

 

One last issue, at least for me, is: how do you keep your balance in a game that lets you do anything? Hero's answer is that everything costs points, and you have a finite supply. If you say "points don't matter anymore" then there is no reason to limit yourself. A wizard can create a magic staff that can shoot three fireballs a day, or he can create a magic staff that contains every spell ever known, grants +12 SPD to the wielder, and uses zero END. If points don't matter, then the only thing stopping him is GM veto. This requires the GM to exercise a lot more judgment and authority, to review everything carefully, and personally I find it exhausting. Ultimately it's not the player building the power anymore, its the GM building everything to the player's specification. And again, if I want to run things that way it's a lot simpler and less work to do it in Fudge.

 

Working through the points system in Hero is fun. It stimulates creativity to try to stay within a budget, to try to squeeze one more real point off the cost, to evaluate various tradeoffs when you can't afford them all. As many have said, it's a game in itself.

 

So there are a lot of reasons. I'm not saying it's badwrong to make stuff up, or that it doesn't work in Hero. Just thinking out loud about why people don't want to.

[Alcamtar]

Re: Alas, no more Independent!

 

I loved the 1E Create power, and was considering using it in my 6e campaign. I'd forgotten how it worked.

[Kristopher]

Re: Alas, no more Independent!

 

I think the disconnect is that we have a system for it. It's like with D&D 3E, when everyone complained it took to long to prepare for a game because you had to construct monsters like characters, assign all their skills and feats and stuff, derive a correct challenge rating, and also make sure the treasure was within guidelines. The usual answer to this was: just make it up, nobody will know the difference. But making it up pretty much defeated the whole point of playing 3E in the first place. Might as well go back to playing 1E. And how did 4E fix this? Largely by dropping the complex build system and reverting to "make it up".

 

Even so, it might not be an issue, except that Hero has a long tradition of statting up everything. Weapons, armor, vehicles, bases, gadgets, even Talents are build as powers and a point cost can be determined. If Hero had a tradition of handwaving some things it would be a lot easier to ignore the system, but it feels weird as a GM to handwave stuff when you're the only one doing it. Also I suspect that most of us who play Hero aren't big on handwaving stuff, or we'd have chosen to a different game.

 

My "other" favorite games are D&D and Fudge. Both of those are handwavy games. Both are a lot easier to play, and Fudge at least can do anything Hero can do, you just have to make it up instead of having a metasystem to do it. The ONLY reason to use Hero is because I want to use the metasystem to build stuff, instead of just making it up. (Well, and because I also want to roll huge handfulls of damage dice!!)

 

One last issue, at least for me, is: how do you keep your balance in a game that lets you do anything? Hero's answer is that everything costs points, and you have a finite supply. If you say "points don't matter anymore" then there is no reason to limit yourself. A wizard can create a magic staff that can shoot three fireballs a day, or he can create a magic staff that contains every spell ever known, grants +12 SPD to the wielder, and uses zero END. If points don't matter, then the only thing stopping him is GM veto. This requires the GM to exercise a lot more judgment and authority, to review everything carefully, and personally I find it exhausting. Ultimately it's not the player building the power anymore, its the GM building everything to the player's specification. And again, if I want to run things that way it's a lot simpler and less work to do it in Fudge.

 

Working through the points system in Hero is fun. It stimulates creativity to try to stay within a budget, to try to squeeze one more real point off the cost, to evaluate various tradeoffs when you can't afford them all. As many have said, it's a game in itself.

 

So there are a lot of reasons. I'm not saying it's badwrong to make stuff up, or that it doesn't work in Hero. Just thinking out loud about why people don't want to.

 

For my upcoming science fiction game, the weapons and ships aren't going to be built to exacting detail in HERO, they're just going to have the stats I want them to have, such as whatever range brackets I want them to have -- and range won't be based on the AP in the Power.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Alas, no more Independent!

 

I think the disconnect is that we have a system for it. It's like with D&D 3E' date=' when everyone complained it took to long to prepare for a game because you had to construct monsters like characters, assign all their skills and feats and stuff, derive a correct challenge rating, and also make sure the treasure was within guidelines. The usual answer to this was: just make it up, nobody will know the difference. But making it up pretty much defeated the whole point of playing 3E in the first place. Might as well go back to playing 1E. And how did 4E fix this? Largely by dropping the complex build system and reverting to "make it up".[/quote']

 

Oh, I'm not saying that if something exists it shouldn't be statted up. But a thing can exist, whether or not it is statted up, without a supply of points with which to create it.

 

More later.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Alas, no more Independent!

 

For my upcoming science fiction game' date=' the weapons and ships aren't going to be built to exacting detail in HERO, they're just going to have the stats I want them to have, such as whatever range brackets I want them to have -- and range won't be based on the AP in the Power.[/quote']

 

Kudos to you.

 

You'll find that there are a _lot_ of things that just don't need a whole lot of point-keeping. Many things are more enablers than properties of a character anyway.

[Kristopher]

Re: Alas, no more Independent!

 

Kudos to you.

 

You'll find that there are a _lot_ of things that just don't need a whole lot of point-keeping. Many things are more enablers than properties of a character anyway.

 

As mentioned by others, I see a tendancy to stat up EVERYTHING expressed by HERO players. At some point, I saw someone include the internal lighting system on a starship or submarine or base or whatever it was as Images, immobile focus, etc. I'm not saying that it's badwrongfun to do so, I just don't get it, personally.

 

Just because the system lets you build anything, doesn't mean that you have to build out every last thing.

 

Reading through books like Terran Empire, it seems that the every ship-based weapon has to be statted out as a Multipower to cover its entire range... and so the entry for each capital ship is about 75% HERO stats for the weapons and drives, 20% other stats, and 5% setting/color information.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Alas, no more Independent!

 

As mentioned by others, I see a tendancy to stat up EVERYTHING expressed by HERO players. At some point, I saw someone include the internal lighting system on a starship or submarine or base or whatever it was as Images, immobile focus, etc. I'm not saying that it's badwrongfun to do so, I just don't get it, personally.

 

Just because the system lets you build anything, doesn't mean that you have to build out every last thing.

 

Reading through books like Terran Empire, it seems that the every ship-based weapon has to be statted out as a Multipower to cover its entire range... and so the entry for each capital ship is about 75% HERO stats for the weapons and drives, 20% other stats, and 5% setting/color information.

 

It's one of the problems that I have with Traveller Hero, as well. I absolutely love Book 1 for the character packages and other bits, and absolutely detest the ship rules. I'm much more likely to just grab Book 5 (from Classical Traveller), and stat a ship up with that.

 

JoeG

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Alas, no more Independent!

 

As mentioned by others' date=' I see a tendancy to stat up EVERYTHING expressed by HERO players. At some point, I saw someone include the internal lighting system on a starship or submarine or base or whatever it was as Images, immobile focus, etc. I'm not saying that it's badwrongfun to do so, I just don't get it, personally. [/quote']

 

 

No argument here. In this, I believe we are very much in agreement. I recall a conversation some years back where someone statted out building materials such as drywall, etc, to see how many pieces a character would pass through before it affected his flying speed (think canonballing through a building) or knockback. I thought that was a bit much.

 

Now as far as Traveller HERO goes, I can see it as a sourcebook or a genre book, just because there _are_ players out there (such as Kristopher's "Lights are Images" guy or the drywall guy) who really do want that information. It's easier, and probably more practical, to put it in there and let folks ignore it than to leave it out and have folks lament its absence. At least, that's how I see that sort of thing.

 

But when it comes time to play, for my group (and evidently for Kristopher, at least to some extent) a lot of it is just not needed.

 

 

Heh heh heh heh heh---

 

I probably shouldn't put this out there, particularly considering as how I try really hard to avoid constructs using this power, but on the Independant / making equipment / magic goodies thing:

 

How about Transform: raw materials to special doohickey. Requires correct raw materials, appropriate professional skills, and perhaps special tools or facilities and a set amount of time per unit.

 

This makes creating magic wands more of a super-skill, but it also allows a character to make something that doesn't actually cost him points per unit. He can crank out X wands of fire every week or month, assuming he's actively working on it, etc. Sort of the way Malaysian kids were cranking out Kathy Lee's line of clothing by the thousands of units, but not actually paying points to do it or losing points when they shipped them out.

 

 

Thoughts? Opinions?

 

(for the record, I'm disappointed to hear that about Terran Empire. I was hoping to pick it up next spring, as Traveller Hero referenced it quite often. I was hoping there would be a good bit of setting to justify the expense. )

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Alas, no more Independent!

 

One last issue' date=' at least for me, is: how do you keep your balance in a game that lets you do anything? Hero's answer is that everything costs points, and you have a finite supply. If you say "points don't matter anymore" then there is no reason to limit yourself. A wizard can create a magic staff that can shoot three fireballs a day, or he can create a magic staff that contains every spell ever known, grants +12 SPD to the wielder, and uses zero END. If points don't matter, then the only thing stopping him is GM veto. This requires the GM to exercise a lot more judgment and authority, to review everything carefully, and personally I find it exhausting. Ultimately it's not the player building the power anymore, its the GM building everything to the player's specification. And again, if I want to run things that way it's a lot simpler and less work to do it in Fudge.[/quote']

 

When a character starts play with a magic item (or, in supers or modern games, a gadget, or for that matter any Power at all in any genre) we expect there to be some kind of story justification for it being there. It's either part of a suite of powers with a common special effect, or else the backstory mentions how the character made/found/stole it. The rules are actually pretty silent on how long it takes to build a Focus, unless it's in a gadget pool of some kind (and even there there are rules for where the gadgets can go and what happens to the points). Even in instances where a character can "kitbash" or "hotshot" (i.e. upgrade) an item quickly, the general rule of thumb (going back to Champions 3E, at least) is that there's a good chance that whatever it is will break after it's used. Aside from that, it should take weeks of lab work to get a new item out (as true in fantasy as it is in supers).

 

My point to all of this being, if the GM allows a character to set up an assembly line of Foci, in whatever genre, the responsibility is solely the GM's for letting it happen. And especially in a fantasy game... at 3-5 XP per session, how long will a character have to save up in order to by a 25 point item? (A lot longer than he would if that item is reduced to 10 points by Independent....)

 

I loved the 1E Create power' date=' and was considering using it in my 6e campaign. I'd forgotten how it worked.[/quote']

 

I very much liked it also. The general mechanic is still around in the guise of "Differing Modifiers" under Usable By Others.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Alas, no more Independent!

 

This makes creating magic wands more of a super-skill, but it also allows a character to make something that doesn't actually cost him points per unit. He can crank out X wands of fire every week or month, assuming he's actively working on it, etc. Sort of the way Malaysian kids were cranking out Kathy Lee's line of clothing by the thousands of units, but not actually paying points to do it or losing points when they shipped them out.

 

 

Thoughts? Opinions?

 

(for the record, I'm disappointed to hear that about Terran Empire. I was hoping to pick it up next spring, as Traveller Hero referenced it quite often. I was hoping there would be a good bit of setting to justify the expense. )

 

For my last game, I modified the alternate item creation rules from FH 279, which is basically an updating of the old Create power (though it doesn't actually call it that) from the first edition FH. I'd highly recommend reading that section for a workable system of creating magic items without requiring either Independent or paying points each time an item is produced (or resorting to Transform).

 

JoeG

[Odraude]

Re: Alas, no more Independent!

 

 

Heh heh heh heh heh---

 

I probably shouldn't put this out there, particularly considering as how I try really hard to avoid constructs using this power, but on the Independant / making equipment / magic goodies thing:

 

How about Transform: raw materials to special doohickey. Requires correct raw materials, appropriate professional skills, and perhaps special tools or facilities and a set amount of time per unit.

 

This makes creating magic wands more of a super-skill, but it also allows a character to make something that doesn't actually cost him points per unit. He can crank out X wands of fire every week or month, assuming he's actively working on it, etc. Sort of the way Malaysian kids were cranking out Kathy Lee's line of clothing by the thousands of units, but not actually paying points to do it or losing points when they shipped them out.

 

 

Thoughts? Opinions?

 

(for the record, I'm disappointed to hear that about Terran Empire. I was hoping to pick it up next spring, as Traveller Hero referenced it quite often. I was hoping there would be a good bit of setting to justify the expense. )

 

Here are two examples of that power for you guys. The first is basically the Enchant Item spell from DnD while the second is more of an alchemical type of power. Don't mind the RSR roll. That's just for my game.

 

Imbue Magic Ritual: Major Transform 5d6 (Mundane item into Magic Item with up to 50 AP of a power), 50 AP; No Range (-1/2), Incantations (Throughout; -1/2), RSR (Infusion Power Roll; -1/2), Extra Time (20 minute; -2 1/2), Concentration (0 DCV, Unware, Throughout; -1 1/2), 8 RP

 

Alchemical Concoction: Major Transform 5d6 (Mundane items into Magic Potion with up to 50 AP of a power), 50 AP; No Range (-1/2), RSR (Infusion Power Roll; -1/2), Extra Time (20 minute; -2 1/2), Concentration (0 DCV, Unware, Throughout; -1 1/2), Focus (OAF Expendable, various ingredients; -1), 7 RP

 

I figure that there is a difference between a power that is confined to a focus (wand of fireball, elixir of life) and a power that needs a focus (A wizard needs a tome to cast a spell, but others cant cast it if they have it). The first would definitely be a universal, which means anyone can use it, including the bad guys. You should definitely have the bad guys steal one or two of the foci and use it properly against the good guys. Plus, the power itself being based on charges (like most alchemy potions) helps to at least balance the amount of times some one can use the power. If it becomes very abusive, suggest Usable by other. The second is easy enough. Personal focus. Sure someone takes the wand or tome you need, but it doesn't mean they can use it.

 

If its going to be universal, I say make them take charges. Or else, just make it UOO.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Alas, no more Independent!

 

Nice bit of work there; thanks!

 

For you "Create" folks:

 

The only Fantasy Hero I've ever owned is the one for 4th ed, and I'll openly admit to never having read it or the two companions. They were gifts, and well-appreciated for both the thought and the investment.

 

However, Fantasy has never been my thing. Ever.

 

Can someone point me to a place where I might be able to scavenge a copy of 1st ed Fantasy Hero?

 

Or perhaps tell me if there's some sort of version of it in the 5e book? I don't really have that kind of disposable cash, but it's something to save for if I have to....

[Odraude]

Re: Alas, no more Independent!

 

Nice bit of work there; thanks!

 

For you "Create" folks:

 

The only Fantasy Hero I've ever owned is the one for 4th ed, and I'll openly admit to never having read it or the two companions. They were gifts, and well-appreciated for both the thought and the investment.

 

However, Fantasy has never been my thing. Ever.

 

Can someone point me to a place where I might be able to scavenge a copy of 1st ed Fantasy Hero?

 

Or perhaps tell me if there's some sort of version of it in the 5e book? I don't really have that kind of disposable cash, but it's something to save for if I have to....

 

Thanks. Here is a suppimentary power to the alchemy powers built on charges. Could give inspiration to other charge based foci. Resupplies the charges at a price of course.

 

Alchemists Mobile Workshop: Minor Transform 5d6 (A power with no charges left into one with full reloaded charges; "healed" by using the charges), 25 AP; Extra Time (20 Minutes; -2 1/2), OIF (Suitcase with Alchemy Tools; -1/2), OAF (Proper Ingredients of Spell, Expendable; -1), Concentration (1/2 DCV, Throughout; -1/2), RSR (Infusion Power Roll; -1/2), 4 RP

 

Create Enchanted Items starts on Page 276 in FH: 5TH

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Alas, no more Independent!

 

Nice bit of work there; thanks!

 

For you "Create" folks:

 

The only Fantasy Hero I've ever owned is the one for 4th ed, and I'll openly admit to never having read it or the two companions. They were gifts, and well-appreciated for both the thought and the investment.

 

However, Fantasy has never been my thing. Ever.

 

Can someone point me to a place where I might be able to scavenge a copy of 1st ed Fantasy Hero?

 

Or perhaps tell me if there's some sort of version of it in the 5e book? I don't really have that kind of disposable cash, but it's something to save for if I have to....

 

If you look under Usable On Others, in the section marked With Differing Modifiers, you'll get more or less the original Create power. In a nutshell, you build the Power as it will be used by the user, with whatever Advantages and Limitations it takes, but you don't pay any of these points. Take the Real Cost for that as the Base Cost of your Create Power, and to that you apply any Advantages and Limitations involved in creating it; that's the Power that you buy. 5E and 6E assume you're adding some form of Usable On Others to that as well, which would apply to the Create Power. It's in HD under Differing Modifiers, as well.

[Vondy]

Re: Alas, no more Independent!

 

I think the disconnect is that we have a system for it. It's like with D&D 3E, when everyone complained it took to long to prepare for a game because you had to construct monsters like characters, assign all their skills and feats and stuff, derive a correct challenge rating, and also make sure the treasure was within guidelines. The usual answer to this was: just make it up, nobody will know the difference. But making it up pretty much defeated the whole point of playing 3E in the first place. Might as well go back to playing 1E. And how did 4E fix this? Largely by dropping the complex build system and reverting to "make it up".

 

Even so, it might not be an issue, except that Hero has a long tradition of statting up everything. Weapons, armor, vehicles, bases, gadgets, even Talents are build as powers and a point cost can be determined. If Hero had a tradition of handwaving some things it would be a lot easier to ignore the system, but it feels weird as a GM to handwave stuff when you're the only one doing it. Also I suspect that most of us who play Hero aren't big on handwaving stuff, or we'd have chosen to a different game.

 

My "other" favorite games are D&D and Fudge. Both of those are handwavy games. Both are a lot easier to play, and Fudge at least can do anything Hero can do, you just have to make it up instead of having a metasystem to do it. The ONLY reason to use Hero is because I want to use the metasystem to build stuff, instead of just making it up. (Well, and because I also want to roll huge handfulls of damage dice!!)

 

One last issue, at least for me, is: how do you keep your balance in a game that lets you do anything? Hero's answer is that everything costs points, and you have a finite supply. If you say "points don't matter anymore" then there is no reason to limit yourself. A wizard can create a magic staff that can shoot three fireballs a day, or he can create a magic staff that contains every spell ever known, grants +12 SPD to the wielder, and uses zero END. If points don't matter, then the only thing stopping him is GM veto. This requires the GM to exercise a lot more judgment and authority, to review everything carefully, and personally I find it exhausting. Ultimately it's not the player building the power anymore, its the GM building everything to the player's specification. And again, if I want to run things that way it's a lot simpler and less work to do it in Fudge.

 

Working through the points system in Hero is fun. It stimulates creativity to try to stay within a budget, to try to squeeze one more real point off the cost, to evaluate various tradeoffs when you can't afford them all. As many have said, it's a game in itself.

 

So there are a lot of reasons. I'm not saying it's badwrong to make stuff up, or that it doesn't work in Hero. Just thinking out loud about why people don't want to.

 

I would make two points...

 

1) Statting something up does not mean points have to be payed for it

2) Paying points for equipment is a convention of superheroic games, not heroic ones. Its right there in the books.

 

Unless the item is integrated into a characters concept (ala stormbringer) I see no reason points should be paid for it in a heroic game.

 

Nor do I regard "free gear" as "making it up."

 

You are free to depart from the convention if it suits you, but it is system's default setting for heroic level games.

[dmjalund]

Re: Alas, no more Independent!

 

you could just be statting something up, to give you an idea how effective or overbalancing it might be

[Curufea]

Re: Alas, no more Independent!

 

I would make two points...

 

1) Statting something up does not mean points have to be payed for it

2) Paying points for equipment is a convention of superheroic games, not heroic ones. Its right there in the books.

 

Unless the item is integrated into a characters concept (ala stormbringer) I see no reason points should be paid for it in a heroic game.

 

Nor do I regard "free gear" as "making it up."

 

You are free to depart from the convention if it suits you, but it is system's default setting for heroic level games.

 

Pretty much what I said in post 22 on the second page.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/76714-Alas-no-more-Independent%21?p=1940456#post1940456

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Alas, no more Independent!

 

Thanks, Chris!

[tesuji]

Re: Alas, no more Independent!

 

I see two different things being conflated here.

 

How does the character make/get magic items? that is simply a campaign world "laws of magic" definition thing for the setting. in some its an easy ritual, in others its prayer, in others its sacrifice. All of this is flavor and has nothing to do with "what is written on the character sheet"

 

How does a player record and enter into his character sheet the presence of a magic item he found, he made, etc and how does it get "paid for" if at all? If it does get paid for, what happens when it is broken or lost, especially if it is a found which cannot be just remade?

 

No one ever used independent in my games. Every time someone did i explained - you are "renting" the powers. It will be lost and when it is lost the cp go away." every time they changed their mind because everytime they saw it as just a freebie -2 and they never expected to have it affect them.

 

Glad its gone.

 

if a character is a blacksmith in your game and he spends some time and makes a sword, a regular sword, do you make him pay points for the sword?

 

If a character finds an axe in your game and keeps it and uses it, do you make him pay points for it?

 

If a character finds a horse in your game, keeps it, learns to ride it, trains it, etc do you make him pay cp for it?

 

Why should the answer change if th sword has the ability to glow red hot and inflict some extra damage?

Why should the answer change if the axe can once a day turn itself and the weilder invisible?

Why should the answer change if the horse has wings and can fly and carry a rider?

 

Most FH games I am familar with would have answered the first three questions "no" using the heroic equipment rules.

 

You can leave the answers to the magic ones NO as well and have things stay in check if the in game necessities to make magic items are sufficiently limiting. Time and materials and difficulty can do wonders for preventing an overabundance of magic items.

 

But again it is a question of setting? if its fairly easy to make magic items, if a wand of healing can be whipped out in a day from relatively available components, then one would expect to see a lot of them in the world. So the pcs making a couple is no big deal. They are fairly ubiquitous.

 

If the wands require a month of prep or rare materials that are risky and difficult to obtain, and which are sought by other such talented individuals, then you wont have a wand surplus.

 

Plus while that mage is spending a month off in his tower, what else is going on?

 

In a heroic equipment game, two fighters with the same point totals can be side by side... one has bare hands and is naked, the other has swords and bows and armor and a horse... all for the same point total, and will slaughter the unarmed and unarmored guy. So balance by points is already tossed aside when there is equipment disparity. Calling the equipment "magic" doesn't change that and shouldn't.

 

If you want to try and keep equipment effects balanced, don't use heroic equipment. perhaps give each character an equipment pool. "for every 1 cp invested in the pool your character can have 5 cp of equipment" or somesuch. Or just use superheroic equipment rules and make them pay for every dagger, lantern, an vial of poison they keep.

[dmjalund]

Re: Alas, no more Independent!

 

Hows this idea? make a set of rules that uses the point cost of a power to determine how long it takes to make it, how much it cost to make it, how hard it is to find the ingredients to find to make it (each of these could interact in a A x B x C kind of way) - any shortcuts or failed skill rols could mean waisted time/money/effort or it could end up with an (interestingly?) flawed magic item with perhaps a hidden limitation

[tesuji]

Re: Alas, no more Independent!

 

One last issue, at least for me, is: how do you keep your balance in a game that lets you do anything? Hero's answer is that everything costs points, and you have a finite supply. If you say "points don't matter anymore" then there is no reason to limit yourself. A wizard can create a magic staff that can shoot three fireballs a day, or he can create a magic staff that contains every spell ever known, grants +12 SPD to the wielder, and uses zero END. If points don't matter, then the only thing stopping him is GM veto. This requires the GM to exercise a lot more judgment and authority, to review everything carefully, and personally I find it exhausting. Ultimately it's not the player building the power anymore, its the GM building everything to the player's specification. And again, if I want to run things that way it's a lot simpler and less work to do it in Fudge.

 

balance in hero is not provided by active points or real points but by gm policing. The in play impact of water breathing varies greatly by campaign even though it has a set cost of 5cp. The in game value of sense invisible varies greatly by setting, even though it has a set value. The in game value of 2d6 rka firebolt will definitely vary in a game with heroic equipment rules (where it is common for characters to have similar damaging weapons or armoras free equipment) as opposed to the same game with superheroic equipment rules.

 

Even with the carefully constructed point tallies, it comes down to GM judgement, not points as to where balance and imbalance are.

 

note how few times the questions about balancing characters get responses along the lines of "if they are built on same points you should be good" as opposed to answers talking about dc caps, rox, ocv dcv comparisons, defense values, etc.

 

Gms achieve balance in hero not by letting the points add up, but by comparing the results, the actual in game effects, an asking questions like "how often will this hit?" "how much damage does it do?" etc.

 

this is exactly what is done in games like fudge and dnd where there isn't a point system and you just "make it up".

 

sometimes you will see detractors of the other systems bemoaning the lak of a build system because "how do you know how powerful something is?" and the answer is "by comparing the net results, what it will do, and how good that is compared to other stuff... just like what you have to do in hero."

 

Having run many a game system, most of which had minimal to no "carefully constructed point by for stuff systems" I have had no more and no less balance issues in them than in hero. truthfully, i have had a few more in hero because the existence of the point by to some players seems like permission to "get anything i can build legally".

 

and of course, is making the character pay cp fr the ring of water breathing at all balanced when the knight gets his warhorse, plate armor, two handed sword all free under standard heroic rules?

 

More over, is it fair to charge the other knight character lotsa points because his enchanted plate armor which gives him water breathing as well as the typical protection of plate armor when the other knight just gets the protection and it is free?

 

balance isn't about points, doesn't derive from points and never has been never will be... its about gm judgement and reasoned approval and dissapproval for his campaign.