CoreBrute Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 The court is in session, with numerous costumed and non-costumed visitors. The defendant is currently locked to his seat with heavy metal handcuffs which glow with orange energy. The defendant himself is in an orange jumpsuit and is shaved bald with Roman numerals tattooed down his neck and head. His attorney is a short hunchbacked old man. The prosecutor is a tall man with southern good looks and a well tailored suit. Everyone rises as the judge arrives. The Judge Arnold Dredd is presiding over the proceedings, a well known law official and retired super vigilante. The charges are read out. "This is the case of William "Power Stealer' Hamstrung vs Justice Cavaliers. Mr Hamstrung's actions in a recent battle against the Cavaliers resulted in him stealing the powers of several super heroes permanently. We believe that this is a serious crime, equivalent to rape or crippling a citizen and should be treated as a felony." The 3 victims are: Suzan 'Silk Star' Makita, a second generation superhero and member of the Justice Cavaliers she had the ability to turn control her density switching between being intangible and becoming strong enough to turn graphite to diamonds. After her powers were stolen, several super criminals found her home and killed her. Without her powers Suzan could not protect herself against her acquired enemies. Dr James 'Chemistro' Mann was given the abilities to manipulate chemical elements from his high school professor back in the 70s. He is a college drop out but managed to secure a job in a university being able to create revolutionary experimental elements. Losing his powers rendered him unable to keep his job and forced him to unemployment. Charles 'Void' Graham is born from a human father and a female resident from another dimension, and was able to travel from one dimension to another under his own power. He possessed dual nationality in America and the other nationality and was the only one who could access the dimension without incredible cost or magic. Now deprived from his family he has sunk into deep depression. To be continued... What do you think should be the punishment for stealing super powers (assume permanently, except with genetics or magic etc. the criminal can't return the powers himself). Should it be a serious felony? Is having super powers a right? How is it treated in your campaign? Any ideas or suggestions for the court case please post here. How do you think the Power Stealer should be punished? How would your character punish him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice9 Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing I'd say it'd be in the same category as an assault that left the victim crippled. Sure, they still have normal human abilities, but using that as a defense is like saying it's ok to cut off a weightlifter's arm because he'll still be able to lift more than most people. Of course, this also raises the question of stealing/destroying a powersuit. If it was normal technology and could be rebuilt, then this is simply a high-value theft/destruction. But what if the suit is literally irreplacable? And/or the suit is necessary to sustain the wearer's mobility? For instance, a gaseous alien who uses an exosuit to move around. Without the suit, it can still live, but only within a specially constructed room. Similar to taking someone's wheelchair if it was the last one on Earth ... but as that situation doesn't exist, I have no idea what kind of crime it would be classified as. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing The term is "aggravated assault", which covers cases of maiming and disfigurement. Of course that would only apply if if in fact the court accepted that superpowers are a part of the persons possessing them, and that would depend on the general acceptance of superpowered individuals in the relevant nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing As Reed pointed out to Ben long ago "the actual definition in legal terms of 'super-powered' isn't exact..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing As Reed pointed out to Ben long ago "the actual definition in legal terms of 'super-powered' isn't exact..." Not that it really has to be. It's one of the situations where, should it be necessary for a jurist to decide whether a certain ability is a super-power or just a cute trick, he can always apply the "I knows it when I sees it" standard. A great deal of law is made that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyrm Ouroboros Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing Yeah, I think three counts of aggravated assault would cover it. Presuming the victimized individuals are PCs, I'd concentrate more on how the PCs regain their powers instead of the long, stupid, boring court case re: whether or not Absorbatrix Man is convicted. Understand that Mr. Hamstrung's attorney might very well be able to make a case of 'accidental uncontrolled power use', and quite possibly plea-bargain it down to time served or community service -- especially if 'Power Stealer' always permanently steals powers, 'cause that's just the way his powers work. It'd be something similar to losing control of the car you're driving and slamming into the aforementioned weightlifter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoreBrute Posted November 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing After the prosecuter lists the victims, the defendants attorney rises. He begins to speak in a nasally voice. "My client is a victim of his powers as much as any of the citizens you have shown just now." He waits a moment for the shaking of heads among the jury and observers to subside. "Ever since my client was 17 he has possessed the ability to replicate the powers of of meta-humans he meets, first used to save the Shining Lights orphanage in Nevada he was living in from the super villain Dino-master before running from the orphanage. This was always a temporary ability and the powers would return to the original owner within 8 hours. "However several weeks ago, the villain Radiation man threatened the city of Los Angeles with an explosion blast large enough to turn make the newest attraction in California a crater. However, heroically William here," he taps his client on the head enderingly. "Grabbed the villain and absorbed his powers." "Objection your honour, Mr Hamstrung was robbing the city at the time with Radiation man." The Prosecuter states. "Now while William was there for less then noble reasons, he did save the city. However no good deed goes unpunished." He adds cryptically. He pulls out a folder from his briefcase. "I have here a medical report stating that the radiation not only turned Power Stealers effect permanent, they gave him fatal bone cancer. While my client could take the ability to heal himself from another super human, he would rather not as that would likely kill them. He wants to be allowed to die in peace in the safety of his home." The door violently opens and a man in a hospital gown walks in. "This man violated me!" He points at not Power Stealer but the Admiral, leader of the Justice Cavaliers. He gulps. "Nathan! Good to see you-" The Admiral quickly begins. "Save it! You took my powers away from me!" the court room is silenced. Then the story unfolds. A week ago, Nathan 'Mini Body' Mark was knocked into a coma by an alien parasite that would kill in 4 hours. The alien was too small to be surgically removed, so the heroes needed to shrink down to get the parasite. However Nathan was the only shrinker in the district. So they got Power Stealer to take his abilities and shrink down to remove the parasite. The parasite was removed and Power stealer went on his way. "However my powers are gone permanently! And you knew Admiral! You saw what happened to Suzan and you let this happen!" The team leader looks saddened and looks down. The judge slams his hammer. "I call a recess. We shall review the evidence when the jury returns." To be continued... Any more comments or queries will be welcomed. Opinions are also valid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba smith Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing I'd say it'd be in the same category as an assault that left the victim crippled. Sure, they still have normal human abilities, but using that as a defense is like saying it's ok to cut off a weightlifter's arm because he'll still be able to lift more than most people. Of course, this also raises the question of stealing/destroying a powersuit. If it was normal technology and could be rebuilt, then this is simply a high-value theft/destruction. But what if the suit is literally irreplacable? And/or the suit is necessary to sustain the wearer's mobility? For instance, a gaseous alien who uses an exosuit to move around. Without the suit, it can still live, but only within a specially constructed room. Similar to taking someone's wheelchair if it was the last one on Earth ... but as that situation doesn't exist, I have no idea what kind of crime it would be classified as. good point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing After the prosecuter lists the victims, the defendants attorney rises. He begins to speak in a nasally voice. "My client is a victim of his powers as much as any of the citizens you have shown just now." He waits a moment for the shaking of heads among the jury and observers to subside. "Ever since my client was 17 he has possessed the ability to replicate the powers of of meta-humans he meets, first used to save the Shining Lights orphanage in Nevada he was living in from the super villain Dino-master before running from the orphanage. This was always a temporary ability and the powers would return to the original owner within 8 hours. "However several weeks ago, the villain Radiation man threatened the city of Los Angeles with an explosion blast large enough to turn make the newest attraction in California a crater. However, heroically William here," he taps his client on the head enderingly. "Grabbed the villain and absorbed his powers." "Objection your honour, Mr Hamstrung was robbing the city at the time with Radiation man." The Prosecuter states. "Now while William was there for less then noble reasons, he did save the city. However no good deed goes unpunished." He adds cryptically. He pulls out a folder from his briefcase. "I have here a medical report stating that the radiation not only turned Power Stealers effect permanent, they gave him fatal bone cancer. While my client could take the ability to heal himself from another super human, he would rather not as that would likely kill them. He wants to be allowed to die in peace in the safety of his home." The door violently opens and a man in a hospital gown walks in. "This man violated me!" He points at not Power Stealer but the Admiral, leader of the Justice Cavaliers. He gulps. "Nathan! Good to see you-" The Admiral quickly begins. "Save it! You took my powers away from me!" the court room is silenced. Then the story unfolds. A week ago, Nathan 'Mini Body' Mark was knocked into a coma by an alien parasite that would kill in 4 hours. The alien was too small to be surgically removed, so the heroes needed to shrink down to get the parasite. However Nathan was the only shrinker in the district. So they got Power Stealer to take his abilities and shrink down to remove the parasite. The parasite was removed and Power stealer went on his way. "However my powers are gone permanently! And you knew Admiral! You saw what happened to Suzan and you let this happen!" The team leader looks saddened and looks down. The judge slams his hammer. "I call a recess. When the Jury returns we shall see their verdict." To be continued... Any more comments or queries will be welcomed. Opinions are also valid. Err, I know this is just a "what if" and there's only so much detail you can go into, but a jury doesn't usually get sent to make a decision after five minutes which include a huge outburst (which would get the person removed from the courtroom if not found in contempt and fined). I think you need to flesh out the situation (a lot) more before jumping to the verdict… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing There is obviously a difference between cutting someone's arm off as part of an assault, and cutting someone's arm off because they have gangrene and otherwise they'll die. And there is a difference between accidentally maiming someone and deliberately doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoreBrute Posted November 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing Err' date=' I know this is just a "what if" and there's only so much detail you can go into, but a jury doesn't usually get sent to make a decision after five minutes which include a huge outburst (which would get the person removed from the courtroom if not found in contempt and fined). I think you need to flesh out the situation (a lot) more before jumping to the verdict…[/font'] Fair enough. Adjusted it, so they don't ask for the verdict after the recess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing Honestly, this seems likely to be more a matter of arguments before the judge, and appeals to judicial panels. The question is not "Did this man do this act?", its "what crime, if any, does this act constitute?" The jury does not, nominally, get to decide what acts constitute a crime. They decide whether or not the defendant has, in fact, committed the acts beyond a reasonable doubt. Aggravated assault sounds about right, though. Most if not all victims could also sue in civil court for some *major* damages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing Main question is: is there prior precedent or will this case set the precedent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoreBrute Posted November 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing set precedent. Right now all Hamstrung is guilty of is grand larceny (goods not powers). This case will dictate whether the taking of powers is a felony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Holck Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing Grand Larceny isn't a felony? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing He didn't say that Matt Holck. He said the case will determine whether the taking of powers is a felony. That in no way implies that grand larceny is not a felony, unless you are assuming "stealing" powers would count as grand larceny... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing Unfortunately, as far as I'm aware (and my knowledge is of English law, but it is the sister-system of US law) it is not down to the Judge or Jury to determine whether a particular action is a crime. What they MAY determine is whether a particular action falls within the remit of an existing crime. Then the process is: - the prosecution determine the charge they wish to make - they collect and present evidence as to why the specific action meets the definitions as set out in current law - the judge makes decisions in relation to the law, which may rule certain evidence inadmissable or certain legal constructions to be unacceptable. - the jury makes a decision on the facts of the case In terms of the prosection, in English law it would be tried as an assault, of which we have 4 main categories: - Common Assault & Battery - must either have physical contact with the victim (battery) or undertake actions that cause the victim to believe that physical violence was going to result (assault) - Assault Occasioning Actual Bodily Harm - as Common Assault, but you will have left some lasting mark, such as bruising or a cut. - Unlawful Wounding - as above, but causes "serious" bodily harm - Grevious Bodily Harm (GBH) - as above, but both intends to and causes "serious" bodily harm. In English law, it would come down to three things: 1. Was there a physical contact such as could be considered an assault? In superhero land, there is probably already precedent relating to SFXs such as Spiritual and Ego attacks, but if not, this is a major issue and could see the case being thrown out. After all, loss of an intangible and undefineable power by an intangible and undefiniable force is a tough case to make! How powers manifest and how they're detected in your campaign world is a key consideration. 2. What scale of damage is the loss of a superpower? This would vary dramatically based on SFX. There is precedent in English law that psychological harm can be ABH, so that would be the starting point. The permanence alone wouldn't be enough to lift it to GBH, and would be down to the jury to decide on a case by case basis - as such, the prosecution would probably try for ABH, Wounding AND GBH at the same time. Context is key - loss of radar sense for Daredevil qualifies, as would loss of forcefield for the Invisible Woman. There could be some very interesting legal arguments in relation to the "Eggshell" principle, which says that an attacker takes his victim as he finds him, and it is not a defence that the person has a thin skull if you strike him lightly on the head and he dies. In the same vein, it is arguable that loss of a superpower is an extension of this principle. NB: Google just pointed me to the current sentencing guidelines, and suggests that one type of GBH is "Victim suffered a very serious injury or permanent disfigurement" - if I was the prosection, that's what I'd be aiming for! 3. What was the intent? Did the Aggressor intend to take the power, or was it a side-effect. This would judge whether it would be a "Wounding" offence, with maximum penalty of 10 years, or GBH, with maximum of life. If this type of case has never been tried before, it is extremely unlikely that the judge would allow a successful prosection. However, he would almost certainly permit grounds for appeal so that a higher court can adjudicate on the specific legal matters. In English law at least, you cannot appeal on a finding of fact (i.e. the jury think you did X or did not do Y), you can only appeal on a matter of law. It is also worth noting that true legal precedent is only set by the higher courts - in England, only the Court of Appeal / Court of Criminal Appeal and Supreme Court (formerly House of Lords) sets precedent. I suspect the same is true in US law. So whatever this judge decides may be influential but is unlikely to be binding on any future case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DusterBoy Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing Ah, CoreBrute - you do know that Judge Dredd's first name is Joseph, yes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing Unfortunately, as far as I'm aware (and my knowledge is of English law, but it is the sister-system of US law) it is not down to the Judge or Jury to determine whether a particular action is a crime. What they MAY determine is whether a particular action falls within the remit of an existing crime. . A distinction without a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoreBrute Posted November 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing Ah' date=' CoreBrute - you do know that Judge Dredd's first name is Joseph, yes?[/quote'] Yup. I did that on purpose to refer to two people. Judge Dredd, and Arnold 'Governator' Schwarzenegger. If I did that the other way around however i don't think anyone would have seen a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DusterBoy Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing Yup. I did that on purpose to refer to two people. Judge Dredd' date=' and Arnold 'Governator' Schwarzenegger. If I did that the other way around however i don't think anyone would have seen a joke.[/quote'] I see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing A distinction without a difference. No, it's entirely fundamental to the point of how guilt is proven. It's much trickier to fit something like the theft of a superpower into existing laws relating to offenses against the person, than it is to create a new crime that specifically matches the action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing Treat it as willful crippling during the commission of a felony. Whatever if any difference during the felony would make. Doesn't really matter because if he got out ,he'd be too much risk to the big time super villains . They WOULD take him out. I don't think i would want to be in the same courtroom, building or even town when Dr. Omnipotent decides to take him out with his orbital proton cannon. Then again maybe that's colored by the fact I find power stealing repugnant and utterly utterly failing my suspension of belief on every level ( kind of like that fractually wrong poster in the motivation poster thread says:D) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing I'd say it'd be in the same category as an assault that left the victim crippled. Sure, they still have normal human abilities, but using that as a defense is like saying it's ok to cut off a weightlifter's arm because he'll still be able to lift more than most people. Of course, this also raises the question of stealing/destroying a powersuit. If it was normal technology and could be rebuilt, then this is simply a high-value theft/destruction. But what if the suit is literally irreplacable? And/or the suit is necessary to sustain the wearer's mobility? For instance, a gaseous alien who uses an exosuit to move around. Without the suit, it can still live, but only within a specially constructed room. Similar to taking someone's wheelchair if it was the last one on Earth ... but as that situation doesn't exist, I have no idea what kind of crime it would be classified as. Some of that harm would be a "civil" matter" i.e. you'd sue for damages.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Re: Super Law: Power stealing The court is in session, with numerous costumed and non-costumed visitors. The defendant is currently locked to his seat with heavy metal handcuffs which glow with orange energy. The defendant himself is in an orange jumpsuit and is shaved bald with Roman numerals tattooed down his neck and head. His attorney is a short hunchbacked old man. The prosecutor is a tall man with southern good looks and a well tailored suit. Everyone rises as the judge arrives. The Judge Arnold Dredd is presiding over the proceedings, a well known law official and retired super vigilante. The charges are read out. "This is the case of William "Power Stealer' Hamstrung vs Justice Cavaliers. Mr Hamstrung's actions in a recent battle against the Cavaliers resulted in him stealing the powers of several super heroes permanently. We believe that this is a serious crime, equivalent to rape or crippling a citizen and should be treated as a felony." The 3 victims are: Suzan 'Silk Star' Makita, a second generation superhero and member of the Justice Cavaliers she had the ability to turn control her density switching between being intangible and becoming strong enough to turn graphite to diamonds. After her powers were stolen, several super criminals found her home and killed her. Without her powers Suzan could not protect herself against her acquired enemies. Dr James 'Chemistro' Mann was given the abilities to manipulate chemical elements from his high school professor back in the 70s. He is a college drop out but managed to secure a job in a university being able to create revolutionary experimental elements. Losing his powers rendered him unable to keep his job and forced him to unemployment. Charles 'Void' Graham is born from a human father and a female resident from another dimension, and was able to travel from one dimension to another under his own power. He possessed dual nationality in America and the other nationality and was the only one who could access the dimension without incredible cost or magic. Now deprived from his family he has sunk into deep depression. To be continued... What do you think should be the punishment for stealing super powers (assume permanently, except with genetics or magic etc. the criminal can't return the powers himself). Should it be a serious felony? Is having super powers a right? How is it treated in your campaign? Any ideas or suggestions for the court case please post here. How do you think the Power Stealer should be punished? How would your character punish him? Well at leat in the U.S. nothing is against the law, unless there Is a law. So without a statute prohibiting it, the only criminal issue would be laws against "maiming". Also the victims and familys /estates could sue for damages (good luck with that if he's destitute...) My games usually Do have "super laws" on the books so he'd be charged with something under those I'd guess.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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