A Storeowner's First Impression

[RexMundi]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

While I still would have preferred a slip cover edition (At the combined MSRP), with the Colors being reversed (That much Yellow would get anyone's attention a mile away), I have to say, after running a game now, that having the smaller combat and adventuring book to flip through for player rules questions is easier then it would be if it were one giant book (Though Rex likes his one Giant Book).

 

So no real grumbles about the two book set up really. Still need to go out and get the Advanced and Basic thingies so I can start with a soft back beating and escalate to backhanding someone with 6e1.

 

~Rex

[ghost-angel]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Absolutely. However' date=' the back cover, while implying that, does not explicitly indicate "You need both volumes to play the game". And if it did, the logical next question would be "Then why are they sold separately?" or, at a minimum, "Why are they only sold separately?"..[/quote']

 

The 6th Edition rules come in two Core Rulebooks, Character

Creation and Combat And Adventuring. Together these two

books feature:

 

* The full HERO System rules, revised and updated for

greater consistency, flexibility, creativity, and ease of use

 

Seems pretty explicit to me.

 

Nope, sorry, not giving any ground on this one. It's explicit, anyone with even the most minor comprehension skills should figure it out pretty easily.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

The 6th Edition rules come in two Core Rulebooks, Character

Creation and Combat And Adventuring. Together these two

books feature:

 

* The full HERO System rules, revised and updated for

greater consistency, flexibility, creativity, and ease of use

 

Seems pretty explicit to me.

 

Nope, sorry, not giving any ground on this one. It's explicit, anyone with even the most minor comprehension skills should figure it out pretty easily.

 

So, why would they be sold separately, given it is "explicit to anyone with even the most minor comprehension skills" that they are only useful as a unit?

 

I also think a number of gaming books are purchased by non-gamers as gifts for gamers. Why would they do a detailed read of the back of the books?

 

I'm not disagreeing that the back cover blurb is pretty clear you need both books. I am disagreeing with the belief that the clarity of this need could not have been improved, or that an increase in such clarity would not be desirable. The decision to market the rules in two volumes creates confusion. That confusion should be minimized wherever possible.

[mayapuppies]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Nope' date=' sorry, not giving any ground on this one. It's explicit, anyone with even the most minor comprehension skills should figure it out pretty easily.[/quote']

And certainly those with the minimum comprehension skills necessary to be literate. I'm with G-A on this one.

[ghost-angel]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

So, why would they be sold separately, given it is "explicit to anyone with even the most minor comprehension skills" that they are only useful as a unit?

 

I also think a number of gaming books are purchased by non-gamers as gifts for gamers. Why would they do a detailed read of the back of the books?

 

I'm not disagreeing that the back cover blurb is pretty clear you need both books. I am disagreeing with the belief that the clarity of this need could not have been improved, or that an increase in such clarity would not be desirable. The decision to market the rules in two volumes creates confusion. That confusion should be minimized wherever possible.

 

Because they're two volumes.

 

I know I plan on buying a second Combat & Adventuring book for the table since during play 90% of what I look up are combat rules.

 

I know I'd be pretty annoyed if I couldn't buy one of two volumes. Maybe I need to replace just one, or want a second copy of one (which I actually do). Maybe you buy one and your friend buys the other and the two of you game together with it. But mostly, it's because they're two books - and selling them separately let's the buyer decide if they want both or just one.

 

They're two volumes, sold separately. Simple as that. You need both to play completely, but that doesn't mean you should be forced to buy both every time.

 

There are a 165 words on the back cover. You only need to get 102 words in to determine that you need both books to play. That's not exactly involved reading. That's a bout 30-60 seconds of your time.

 

Still not giving ground on this one, if you're playing devil's advocate you can stop. I won't be responding to further inqueries or anything else. Happy gaming.

[lemming]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Maybe a picture of an orc battling a cyborg ninja monkey space pirate dragon riding a stage coach at the bottom of the sea with his fireball spell and an M16? Yeah' date=' good luck with that graphic.[/quote']

 

I'd like to see that.

[BlackSword]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

If the staff at an FLGS doesn't have any idea what Hero is or why there are two books or what it does or why it is different...they deserve to be run out of business.

 

I'm certainly hope that I am misunderstanding and no one is actually implying that it is, somehow, DOJ's fault that an FLGS was ignorant about Hero.

I am not going to blame DoJ, but also not ready to put blame on the FLGS owners either. Being on the forums during all the development and discussion about 6E makes everything about the release seem obvious to the casual observer, assuming the casual observer has spent countless hours arguing over COM. I don't expect a storeowner to spend that much time on every company in existence. A quick look at the Hero Games home page today, and the only mention of 6E is 6E Champions. If you go to "What is Hero System," the page for "About Hero Games" has no mention of 6E, and "Hero System Basics" mentions it half way down the page, though it does explicitly say that it is two volumes.

[ghost-angel]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

RE: what a store owner should know.

 

I don't think a store owner needs to know the Hero System as a system.

 

What they should know about the product:

It's a universal generic system.

You need both volumes for the full rules.

 

That's not a lot of ask of an owner to know the basic idea and which products to sell. Hobby Stores are the one place I do expect someone in the store to know about any given item.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

"Sorry, we would have put all this in one book, but there's a lot of material and it would probably break your desk when you set it down."

 

That'd sell a lot of copies, don't you think? Trying to explain why the system comes in two volumes would be as close to an apology as you can get, even if the wording were chosen a lot more carefully than mine. And one thing you absolutely never do in marketing is apologize [EDIT: about the product you are trying to sell].

[torchwolf]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

EDIT: I was out of line and apologize for this. I remove the needless parts of this post.

 

Well well. I didn't anticipate any confusion about the 6th Edition being two volumes of a rules set. In hindsight, the two volumes could of course have been labeled "6E1:2" and "6E2:2", to make everything perfectly clear.

Still, I'm not aware that any particular confusion arose when GURPS 4th edition came out, titled "GURPS Basic Set:Characters" and "GURPS Basic Set:Campaigns". True, only the Characters set was necessary for play, and this may or may not be behind some of the confusion - someone who is familiar with how GURPS 4th Edition organized the contents might have assumed it was the same with Hero 6th Edition.

 

In any case, while the backside blurb does not describe the relationships between the contents of the two books, doing so would have made a really long blurb. Stating that this is a rules set in two volumes is as clear you can get.

 

Including some fliers telling more about the Hero System 6th Edition with a shipment to a retailer so potential buyers could inform themselves might incidentally be a good idea, but I suppose there are already such plans in the making.

[Jagged]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

It is worth noting since there seems to be some confusion' date=' to the best of my knowledge the 6e rules are split into two volumes because it would be a physical problem to print the entirety of the rules as a single volume. They aren't a player's book and a ref's book. I've personally known quite a few players in the time that I've played Hero that would get by quite well only with the Combat and Adventuring book, as they always would have others make their characters for them. [/quote']

 

Hmmm, thats true for my group as well. Since we have fallen into the tradition (?) of the Ref building all the characters.

[gojira]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Still, I'm not aware that any particular confusion arose when GURPS 4th edition came out, titled "GURPS Basic Set:Characters" and "GURPS Basic Set:Campaigns". True, only the Characters set was necessary for play, and this may or may not be behind some of the confusion - someone who is familiar with how GURPS 4th Edition organized the contents might have assumed it was the same with Hero 6th Edition.

 

 

This is exactly where the confusion would lie, I think. GURPS has one scheme, DnD has another, and neither is the same as HERO. Thus, Hero Games should really be as proactive as possible when they explain their product to store owners and customers.

 

Just my 2 cents, again. (I'm in for four now, I think.) I understand perfectly what the books are for, I'm just concerned that Hero Games may be missing some sales due to store or customer confusion. Obviously, it's Steve's and Darren's and co.'s paychecks on the line. As long as they're happy, I'm fine with what they think is the best thing to do.

[garou]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Maybe a picture of an orc battling a cyborg ninja monkey space pirate dragon riding a stage coach at the bottom of the sea with his fireball spell and an M16? Yeah' date=' good luck with that graphic.[/quote']

 

That would be soo kewl.

 

 

Maybe I can commission an artist or something. . .

[Vondy]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

"Sorry' date=' we would have put all this in one book, but there's a lot of material and it would probably break your desk when you set it down."[/indent']

 

That'd sell a lot of copies, don't you think? Trying to explain why the system comes in two volumes would be as close to an apology as you can get...

 

"For ease of reference..." ?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

The system is a generic tool-kit. What picture SHOULD be on the cover? Dr D and Seeker? Doesn't that imply a superhero game? So someone looking for a fantasy system will pass it by. Maybe then an orc and a dragon? Then superheroists will pass it by. Maybe a picture of an orc battling a cyborg ninja monkey space pirate dragon riding a stage coach at the bottom of the sea with his fireball spell and an M16? Yeah' date=' good luck with that graphic.[/quote']

 

Maybe something like 6e2 pg 215.

[casualplayer]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Maybe something like your basic Rifts cover, since those players have been wandering without a homeland for 40 years. "Come play a game where you can play anything you want plus the system encourages balanced characters."

 

Unless it's a labor of love, someone trying to sell enough to keep the doors open and the lights on is going to gravitate to the most bang for their buck, or the most buck for their time. You can tackle the "labor of love" part by keeping the fanbase stoked and the buck-bang part by keeping the retailers satiated with a steady flow of attention-grabbing, high-turn product.

 

When anyone with retail experience expresses concern you realize that for every one that chimes in 9 others are probably feeling the same way. And you realize that being an asshat to them might just make them use that shelf space for something non-HERO, something involving less rudeness and less effort.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Maybe something like 6e2 pg 215.

 

Errr...?

[torchwolf]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

When anyone with retail experience expresses concern you realize that for every one that chimes in 9 others are probably feeling the same way. And you realize that being an asshat to them might just make them use that shelf space for something non-HERO' date=' something involving less rudeness and less effort.[/quote']

True, and I regret being such a hat. I have now edited my post above.

[archermoo]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Hmmm' date=' thats true for my group as well. Since we have fallen into the tradition (?) of the Ref building all the characters.[/quote']

 

While as I noted I have known people who liked that, I wouldn't play anything outside of a Con game or the like with a character that I didn't create myself. Most of the people I've gamed with have felt the same, though there have of course been the few exceptions...

[Jagged]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

While as I noted I have known people who liked that' date=' I wouldn't play anything outside of a Con game or the like with a character that I didn't create myself. Most of the people I've gamed with have felt the same, though there have of course been the few exceptions...[/quote']

 

That was my initial reaction as well. I always loved the act of creating my character and was loath to give it up. But once I played a few it wasn't as bad as I feared

 

Still, the main reason is that it fits our game style (of not being able to get together with any great frequence) and that fact that some of our group would always be reliant on the Ref to build their character even if they told him what they wanted.

 

As a Ref who has built all the player characters for his own campaign I am also aware of the advantages it gives in plot creation. In comics the best stories are built for their specific lead characters so as a Ref its easier (I feel) to come up with a decent plot if you build all the characters as well. In my last campaign for example the physics behind super powers had a lot to to with the plot so I was happy I didn't have to explain to my players why characters with Cybernetics were not allowed. No need to give them extra insights

 

Anyway, blame Sean Waters. He started it

[John Desmarais]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

While as I noted I have known people who liked that' date=' I wouldn't play anything outside of a Con game or the like with a character that I didn't create myself. Most of the people I've gamed with have felt the same, though there have of course been the few exceptions...[/quote']

 

 

I prefer to make my own character, and know many people who do also - but I have also been in groups where it was not uncommon for me to look around the table and realize that I had built every character in play (and, oddly enough, I wasn't the GM).

[Vondy]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I prefer to make my own character' date=' and know many people who do also - but I have also been in groups where it was not uncommon for me to look around the table and realize that I had built every character in play (and, oddly enough, I wasn't the GM).[/quote']

 

I had a player like that. He's the one I still game with (via google docs). He had a great sense of character and what would fit both the game and other players. He'd do the builds with disadvantages, give me a one minute spiel on them, and I'd do a background write-up. Most of the players would happily take them sight unseen. Others would give him a concept, he'd build it, and I'd work up a background from what he and they would tell me. This allowed me to slide campaign details in that would integrate them better. This was for Hero. Other games, not so much. I think it was because most of them had a system-aversion in terms of how open ended it is.

[Vondy]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

As for the OP, our personal love of Hero and Hexman aside, he has a point. People like packaging. If its flashy, catches the eye, and clues them in to what the product is about they are more likely to pick it up and look themselves, or ask the clerk about it, than if it doesn't. As a generic system, Hero has a problem with visually cuing the prospective new buyer in to what the game is about. Yes, its generic, but that means its about nothing and everything all at one time. The store owner can try to hard-sell it to everyone he meets, but unless he loves the system to start with, why would he? You run a business to make money. You sell what moves. The games that help sell themselves move more. I don't know how many times I've been struck by an evocative piece of cover art that verved "take a look" and told me there may well be something there that would appeal to me. This is especially true of games with dedicated settings. What's inside is most important, of course. But the packaging can tell me something about what's inside. Is it the right genre, mood, or style? Unless you know about Hero to start with, Hexman... not so much. I'm not really sure they had a better alternative, though. Its not a setting. How do you evoke: generic system?

[megaplayboy]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Why not put the Hex-man in the center, with 6 little circular character portraits--a fantasy character, a sci fi hero, a superhero, a martial artist, a street samurai, and a pulp adventurer--surrounding it? Then a "recycled" version of the old HSR group pic on the back cover...or maybe in a two page splash when you crack open the book.

The color scheme of the book is fine, just would have been nice to see a little character art there.

 

On the overall page count thing, I'm curious to know what the diehards' upper tolerance limit is for the "core" rules...1000? 1200? 1500? 2500? If putting 800 pages in one volume is a logistical challenge, and the longest book previously done clocked in at just under 600, I'm guessing the upper limit would be 3 volumes and 1200-1800 pages? 600 pages on character creation would have to be pretty darn comprehensive, and 400+ on combat would as well. I think you'd have a hard time writing a 3rd book covering adventuring, that was longer than about 250 pages, without actually incorporating some "sample" settings and a bunch of adventure ideas and character writeups.

I still think the "smaller and simpler is better" side of the argument will finally win one(and get it right in the process) with 8th edition, but I've been wrong on that before. I think the current trend will continue through 7th edition, though. That's why I'm wondering how far it will go...

[Balabanto]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Quite frankly, I think it would have been possible to do the same thing in one book with less excessive verbiage. Steven Long is extremely wordy when he writes. It should be possible to do one book that's about 500 pages.

 

A little more Ernest Hemingway and a little less J.R.R. Tolkein would not necessarily be a bad thing in terms of writing style.