OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

[sobran]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

Actually, I was thinking about that, and if you're not planning to buy up your DMCV, you might as well sell it back too, maybe get some EGO or Mental Defense instead. Against a mentalist with a decent OMCV, DMCV 3 is no more helpful than DCV 3.

 

As for the reasoning - Zen-Style Mental Countermeasures Training. By emptying the mind of all struggle, and bending with the incoming attack rather than trying to block it, the hostile force will flow past like a river, leaving you relatively untouched. In a world where mental powers are a fact of life, I can see agencies like UNTIL providing this type of training to their operatives.

I rather like this idea actually. I will likely implement it in any games in which I could see it being relevant. Or rather, I will provide the opportunity for characters to receive such training in play, essentially allowing a Post-Chargen sellback/trade.

 

I would like to say I will give you full credit, but none of my players are really aware of these forums. Come to think of it, none of my players could contradict me... *shifty eyes* I promise to give you full credit!

[Sean Waters]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

So, does he have amnesia.

 

Are you sure?

 

Maybe he just doesn't REMEMBER he has amnesia...

 

Maybe you don't remember that you've got amnesia and I've already won this argument

 

Seriously though: 'Because they have' is no good answer for the question; 'Why do normal people have any ability at all with hitting stuff with mental powers?'

 

The only possible answer is 'because we decided OMCV would be a characteristic'.

 

Pah!

 

OMCV and ODCV should start at zero.

 

It is all relative anyway, so buying UP from 3 (where everyone is compelled by peer pressure or somesuch to maintain a value of 3) is really no different from buying up from zero AND it takes away that awful temptation.

 

In fact, think about it more: why is OMCV and ODCV set at 3? Because OCV and DCV are. That is the only possible answer*. Whichever way you slice it, it is a meta-decision.

 

Normal people have no experience with mental attacks, either making them or defending against them, even in worlds where mental powers are relatively common, like superhero settings. Why should they have any ability at all in that area?

 

Set the base ability to zero and you are golden. Does the system REALLY need to cater for 'subnormal mental combat ability'?

 

No. It doesn't.**

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*OK, not strictly true, but I'm trying to make a case here

 

** Subliminals: cool huh? And, of course, useless.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

I can think of a couple of decent uses for OMCV for a character who doesn't have Mental Powers:

 

1) Targeting Mental Entangles that have to be targeted because of the Transparent Advantage. (My Acrobat Reader is too slow to check right now, but memory tells me that this mechanic is still in place in 6E.)

 

2) Using a Mental Power based on someone else's Focus, or a Focus centered on a Base or Vehicle.

 

3) Using a Mental Power granted by a Transform.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

I see no reason someone could not have a high EGO and a high Mental DCV based on willpower. I just don't see how that individual could then reasonably be deficient compared to an average person in respect of his Mental OCV. The logic does not follow.

 

Practicing Willpower/Mental DCV: "I'm going to continue doing this painful thing for 2 minutes, then 2 and a half, then three ..." or any other mind-over-matter willpower-practicing exercise you can think of.

 

Practicing Mental OCV: "I'm going to think at that beer can really hard." I'm not imagining that going very far.

 

In any event, I don't agree with decoupling CVs from statistics, so for my games at least, it's moot.

[Sean Waters]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

I can think of a couple of decent uses for OMCV for a character who doesn't have Mental Powers:

 

1) Targeting Mental Entangles that have to be targeted because of the Transparent Advantage. (My Acrobat Reader is too slow to check right now, but memory tells me that this mechanic is still in place in 6E.)

 

You don't have to roll to hit an entangle you are in, do you? I'm not sure 'transparent' is an entangle advantage. 'Takes no damage' is, but it doesn;t apply tot he trapped person.

 

2) Using a Mental Power based on someone else's Focus' date=' or a Focus centered on a Base or Vehicle.[/quote']

 

Fair enough, but in all my years I've never had that situation come up. You're not really supposed to be handing foci round anyway, and if you di you'd not hand your Mental Lance to Sir MindFumble.

 

3) Using a Mental Power granted by a Transform.

 

...of course the transform could ALSO give you more OMCV...

 

I'm completely behind the idea that you could MAKE a use for OMCV. I'm just saying that the system shouldn't force you to do that: there should be a good in-game reason why we have a non-zero number for an ability we never use. If OMCV and ODCV had been set to start at zero* this would never have been an issue.

 

 

 

 

 

*like mental defence is - and try thinking of a good reason you'd have inate ability with OMCV and ODCV but NOT mental defence. Can't? Good - not just me then.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

Fair enough' date=' but in all my years I've never had that situation come up. You're not really supposed to be handing foci round anyway, and if you di you'd not hand your Mental Lance to Sir MindFumble.[/quote']

 

And also, if you did, remember that he's got OMCV 0 against most people's DMCV 0, giving him an 11- chance to hit the average person. Sir MindFumble isn't going against Egor the Ment-eriffic with that Mental Lance.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

Fair enough' date=' but in all my years I've never had that situation come up. You're not really supposed to be handing foci round anyway, and if you di you'd not hand your Mental Lance to Sir MindFumble.[/quote']No, though in some fantasy settings there could be magic items whose function is represented with Mental Powers. Similarly, in some sci-fi settings there may be psionic technology that anyone can use. Both cases are uncommon enough to not really warrant buying OMCV up, but they can give some consideration on whether to sell it down, and by how much

I'm completely behind the idea that you could MAKE a use for OMCV. I'm just saying that the system shouldn't force you to do that: there should be a good in-game reason why we have a non-zero number for an ability we never use.

Good point, that. It's one reason why I'm resistant, as others in this thread have also expressed, to CVs being divorced from their root Characteristics. But for myself I'd rather wait and try it in an actual game before really making a call on that.

[ghost-angel]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

Whose the "we" in this "we never use" statement.

 

More random blank statements on other gamers games... yeesh.

 

It get used all the time in campaigns I'm in. Maybe not by every character in every game. But enough of them to say "never use" is about as off the mark as pointing to Japan on a map and stating you're pointing at England.

[Sean Waters]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

Whose the "we" in this "we never use" statement.

 

More random blank statements on other gamers games... yeesh.

 

It get used all the time in campaigns I'm in. Maybe not by every character in every game. But enough of them to say "never use" is about as off the mark as pointing to Japan on a map and stating you're pointing at England.

 

The 'we' in question is normal humans.

 

We never get mentally attacked or have the opportunity to make a mental attack. There's no reason why we should develop any facility at all with mental combat.

 

Heroes in some games might well use mental combat more often...but then they would buy the values up if that was important to them. 2 OMCV/DMCV is just as useful in a 'baseline zero' world as 5 OMCV/DMCV in a 'baseline3' world.

 

So there seems no good reason why 'in game' we would chose '3' as the value - it is a hangover from CHAR/3 for ECV, but the underlying logic is gone.

 

And it has never come up, not once in all the years I've been playing, that someone needed to roll a mental attack when they did not have mental power. Mental damage to get out of Mental Paralysis - sure - but that never required ECV and doesn't require OMCV now. Even if it did come up IT IS ALL RELATIVE. They can still make an OMCV roll if we all start at zero, and it avoids all this which has already been the subject of a couple of discussions and will probably be the subject of more until we agree to disagree.

 

So there is no good reason why we need to start at 3 from a 'mechanics' view point as exactly the same effect can be gained by starting at zero, and no one will be tempted to buy characteristics down, which clearly upsets some people. Again it seems to be a case of 'how we have always done it'.

 

I'm sure I must be being unnecessarily abrasive recently without meaning to as I seem to be evoking strong reactions. Perhaps I should fade for a bit.

 

And that was not Japan, it was Norway.

[Sean Waters]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

And also' date=' if you did, remember that he's got OMCV 0 against most people's DMCV 0, giving him an 11- chance to hit the average person. Sir MindFumble isn't going against Egor the Ment-eriffic with that Mental Lance.[/quote']

 

Absolutely.

[prestidigitator]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

I'd be against putting most people at a MCV of zero in my games. I just have this picture of people having enough innate mental agility/stubbornness that they'd be able to get by at a very basic level even if they've never witnessed any kind of mental attack (from either end). Most people are self-aware enough to have a general feel for the thought labyrinth that is their own mind, and could probably use this knowledge to ferret out parallels in other peoples' minds or a general mind-scape as well.

 

Besides, I do like to see a difference between an awake, aware, and ready target and one who is surprised, Stunned, unconscious, etc. Multiplying a 0 DMCV by zero or one half doesn't accomplish much, so it's not like the baseline of 0 is completely equivalent to the baseline of 3. In some games there might be an Unfamiliar Weapon penalty for psionic weaponry you haven't used/trained with as well, and that 3 OMCV might just be needed to sop up the difference.

[torchwolf]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

I'd be against putting most people at a MCV of zero in my games. I just have this picture of people having enough innate mental agility/stubbornness that they'd be able to get by at a very basic level even if they've never witnessed any kind of mental attack (from either end). Most people are self-aware enough to have a general feel for the thought labyrinth that is their own mind, and could probably use this knowledge to ferret out parallels in other peoples' minds or a general mind-scape as well.

 

Besides, I do like to see a difference between an awake, aware, and ready target and one who is surprised, Stunned, unconscious, etc. Multiplying a 0 DMCV by zero or one half doesn't accomplish much, so it's not like the baseline of 0 is completely equivalent to the baseline of 3. In some games there might be an Unfamiliar Weapon penalty for psionic weaponry you haven't used/trained with as well, and that 3 OMCV might just be needed to sop up the difference.

 

Lacking any official options for Blocking when being attacked by Mental Powers, I think this feels reasonable.

 

Lets just say that when it comes to normal people with MCVs, 3 is the new zero (as opposed to 0).

[ghost-angel]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

The 'we' in question is normal humans.

 

We never get mentally attacked or have the opportunity to make a mental attack. There's no reason why we should develop any facility at all with mental combat.

 

Heroes in some games might well use mental combat more often...but then they would buy the values up if that was important to them. 2 OMCV/DMCV is just as useful in a 'baseline zero' world as 5 OMCV/DMCV in a 'baseline3' world.

 

So there seems no good reason why 'in game' we would chose '3' as the value - it is a hangover from CHAR/3 for ECV, but the underlying logic is gone.

 

And it has never come up, not once in all the years I've been playing, that someone needed to roll a mental attack when they did not have mental power. Mental damage to get out of Mental Paralysis - sure - but that never required ECV and doesn't require OMCV now. Even if it did come up IT IS ALL RELATIVE. They can still make an OMCV roll if we all start at zero, and it avoids all this which has already been the subject of a couple of discussions and will probably be the subject of more until we agree to disagree.

 

So there is no good reason why we need to start at 3 from a 'mechanics' view point as exactly the same effect can be gained by starting at zero, and no one will be tempted to buy characteristics down, which clearly upsets some people. Again it seems to be a case of 'how we have always done it'.

 

I'm sure I must be being unnecessarily abrasive recently without meaning to as I seem to be evoking strong reactions. Perhaps I should fade for a bit.

 

And that was not Japan, it was Norway.

 

I suppose it's because the book flat out states it does not model Normal Humans, it's starting values are for Heroic Characters.

 

Does that mean the "Example Normal" should be modified? Probably.

 

But it also means the starting value shouldn't.

 

It was too Japan.

[Sean Waters]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

I suppose it's because the book flat out states it does not model Normal Humans, it's starting values are for Heroic Characters.

 

Does that mean the "Example Normal" should be modified? Probably.

 

But it also means the starting value shouldn't.

 

 

 

I think it is the fact that the example Normal has MCV of 3 that causes me issues: if it was zero, there would be no pressure against buying it down...but then heroic characters MIGHT need the higher characteristics....albeit the majority - if they were going to spend 18 points - would probably be better off putting it all in DMCV for 0/6 (or 1/5 if 1 is as low as you can go).

 

Of course the problem THEN is that someone who wants to have mental powers has to buy that much more OMCV to get over the 'defensive hump'.

 

Still, I'd rather that than Joe and Jane MindTitan*.

 

 

It was too Japan.

 

What? With fjords?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Hyperbole Productions C 2009

[BobGreenwade]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

What? With fjords?

Fjord? I thought it was a chevy....

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

There's an easier way. All the GM has to do is say "You can't sell your MCV down below the default 3."

 

"But my character is head injured, blah blah blah..." I'll show you head injured.

[Sean Waters]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

There's an easier way. All the GM has to do is say "You can't sell your MCV down below the default 3."

 

"But my character is head injured, blah blah blah..." I'll show you head injured.

 

http://thepeoplebrand.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/halfhead.jpg

[Beast]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

I'd go by taking the points and putting them into ego to get a 22 ego to defend against mind control,illusions,scan

 

 

 

 

 

I think it is the fact that the example Normal has MCV of 3 that causes me issues: if it was zero, there would be no pressure against buying it down...but then heroic characters MIGHT need the higher characteristics....albeit the majority - if they were going to spend 18 points - would probably be better off putting it all in DMCV for 0/6 (or 1/5 if 1 is as low as you can go).

 

Of course the problem THEN is that someone who wants to have mental powers has to buy that much more OMCV to get over the 'defensive hump'.

 

Still, I'd rather that than Joe and Jane MindTitan*.

 

 

 

What? With fjords?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Hyperbole Productions C 2009

[archermoo]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

There's an easier way. All the GM has to do is say "You can't sell your MCV down below the default 3."

 

"But my character is head injured, blah blah blah..." I'll show you head injured.

 

Or say "OMCV of 1/0 is the starting value in my campaign". Or "If you don't have any abilities that use OMCV, you don't have one so you can't buy it down". Or any number of other ways to "fix" it for people who think it might be a problem.

[prestidigitator]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

Or combine OCV and OMCV into one Characteristic that costs 8 points and allow people to use the Limitations Only for Mental Attacks (-2) and Not for Mental Attacks (-1/2). Hey, one step closer to getting rid of CSLs entirely!

[archermoo]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

Hey' date=' one step closer to getting rid of CSLs entirely! [/quote']

 

You say that as if it were a good thing...

[prestidigitator]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

You say that as if it were a good thing...

 

I've generally liked CSLs, but they're starting to look a little complicated and cumbersome of late for some reason....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

Practicing Willpower/Mental DCV: "I'm going to continue doing this painful thing for 2 minutes' date=' then 2 and a half, then three ..." or any other mind-over-matter willpower-practicing exercise you can think of.[/quote']

 

This sounds more like resisting the effect of an attack that has already connected than avoiding that attack in the first place. IOW, a higher EGO or Mental Defense, but not MDCV. Of course, part of the problem with this analysis is that we don't have real world analogues for MOCV, MDCV or resistance to mental attacks.

 

Practicing Mental OCV: "I'm going to think at that beer can really hard." I'm not imagining that going very far.

 

Practicing Mental DCV: "I'm going to avoid that fellow thinking at me really hard." If you have never been targeted by a mental attack, how can you simulate that to practice avoiding it?

 

If OMCV and ODCV had been set to start at zero* this would never have been an issue.

 

*like mental defence is - and try thinking of a good reason you'd have inate ability with OMCV and ODCV but NOT mental defence. Can't? Good - not just me then.

 

I think this would have been the best solution. You have no mental powers by default, so you have no MCV by default. A 4 MOCV attacker against a 0 MDCV hits just as often as a 7 MOCV attacker hits a 3 MDCV.

 

I'd be against putting most people at a MCV of zero in my games. I just have this picture of people having enough innate mental agility/stubbornness that they'd be able to get by at a very basic level even if they've never witnessed any kind of mental attack (from either end). Most people are self-aware enough to have a general feel for the thought labyrinth that is their own mind' date=' and could probably use this knowledge to ferret out parallels in other peoples' minds or a general mind-scape as well.[/quote']

 

I could live with this approach as well, but then we need to ask what is deficient about SellBack Man in this regard. In making the sellback, he is indicating his character has lesser ability in this regard than most.

[Fearghus]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

For my two cents I consider this like a disadvantage that is not a disadvantage... It's worth NOTHIN! So you'd be welcome to take you're OMCV down to -1,000,000,000 if you wanted... Your still not gonna get any points for it simply because it does not hinder you... not even a little.

 

However... If it you did have mental powers and bought down you OMCV you would get points for it because now it is a limitation.

 

I realize that this is probably not in the rules anywhere, but it seems like a house rule that is well within the spirit of the game. You only get or spend points on things that effect game play.

[Tasha]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

There's an easier way. All the GM has to do is say "You can't sell your MCV down below the default 3."

 

"But my character is head injured, blah blah blah..." I'll show you head injured.

 

Actually I told my players in my Champions Game to Sell down their OMCV to 1 (6e doesn't allow selling down to 0). It gave my player a whole 6 points that I hope they spent on interesting skills. No, I am not going to come up with an convoluted excuse to punish them for taking those 6points (as suggested in the rules). It's such a minor thing, I don't see the point in worrying about it.

 

I kind of hate the old think of "If something gives the players points, it should penalize them in someway."

 

BTW taking those 6points are not allowed in most Heroic level games. Unless those games happen to have mental powers as part of their genre.