Sean Waters Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 What has always bugged me about his Naked Advantage is that it does not reflect utility in cost. A Naked AoE advantage on an EB costs the same as having the advantage on the EB, but is more useful – you can decide not to use it. Moreover a single NA can apply to several powers (say all attack powers) if appropriate and the GM says it is OK – all for the same cost, potentially – but that cost depends on overall build. Then there is that weird thing with NAs costing END whether or not the base power does. So, what if we take the advantage and apply another advantage to make it naked? Naked Advantage Advantage* You can apply this advantage to the point cost of an advantage to be able to switch it off. The cost depends on the number of powers you can affect with the naked advantage. Calculate the value of the naked advantage (Base power x Advantage) Apply an advantage to that cost as follows: Applies to one power: +1/4 Applies to two powers: +1/2 Applies to four powers: +3/4 Applies to eight powers: +1 Applies to sixteen powers: +1 ¼ Applies to any power: + 1 ½ Finally apply any limitations that would apply to ALL the powers the NA could affect to the cost of the NA. Example 1: NA (AoE 8m Radius +1/2) on a 60 point power: 30 points base One power only (+1/4): 37 points Example 2: NA (AoE 8m Radius +1/2) on a 60 point power with a –1/2 limitation (OIF): 30 points base One power only (+1/4): 37 points, -1/2 limitation: 25 points Example 3: NA (AoE 8m Radius +1/2) on a 60 point power: 30 points base three powers in a MP (+3/4): 52 points Example 4: NA (Autofire on all guns (OAF) +1/2) up to 30 points: 15 point base, +1 ½ advantage (all powers): 37 points –1 (for OAF): 18 points Thoughts? *Name may need some work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dino Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Re: Nudity for your benefit We used to require that naked advantages have the Variable Special Effects (+1/2) advantage applied to them, for those very reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Re: Nudity for your benefit NPA's are a powerful design tool, gaining leverage via abstraction. And like anything powerful they require more GM attention than plain vanilla effects. Generally speaking, IMO, NPA's should typically have some other modifier on the advantage itself that isn't also on the base power(s) they are intended to modify. If they don't then I consider it a flag to press the player real hard to justify their NPA via concept. If they can make a case for having the NPA at all, I'll generally consult them into some modifier on it, such as Extra Time or a RSR: Power Skill, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Re: Nudity for your benefit I agree with Sean here. NPAs are a very useful tool, but they require very careful watching by the GM. However, rather than Sean's suggestion, I'd look at what it can be applied to and allow slightly broader grouping. After all, charging +1/4 for an NPA that applies to only one power seems a bit unfair: an advantage applied to only one power costs ... +0 over the advantage cost. It only becomes an NPA if applied to more than one power, no? With that in mind, I'd suggest: Applies to a tight group of powers: +1/4 Applies to closely related powers: +1/2 Applies to a loose related powers: +3/4 Applies to any power: + 1 Very tight would (for example) be something like "Fire blasts" allowing the NPA to be applied to EB or RKA with fire as a special effect. Closely related and loosely related could be things like "Fire attacks" (add Flash into the mix, for example or HKA) and "Fire powers" respectively. For a numeric approach 2-3 potential applications equals "tight", 4-6 "close" and more than that "loose, when restricted to a specific power set (like for example "any attack") or special effect. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Re: Nudity for your benefit Remember that Naked Advantages have to cover the total Active Points of the power they apply to as well, not just the Base Cost. Meaning they effectively make other Advantages applied (directly) to the power more expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice9 Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Re: Nudity for your benefit That's true - in an extreme case, compare: 90 - Neutron Rifle - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body 45 - Smart Scope - No Range Penalty on Neutron Rifle. 105 - Neutron Rifle w/ Scope - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body, No Range Penalty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted September 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Re: Nudity for your benefit That's true - in an extreme case, compare: 90 - Neutron Rifle - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body 45 - Smart Scope - No Range Penalty on Neutron Rifle. 105 - Neutron Rifle w/ Scope - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body, No Range Penalty Not true any more under 6e if the scope is JUST for the Neutron Rifle (assuming I've read it right), but also... 90 - Proton Rifle - 6d6 RKA 45 - Spreader - 8m radius AoE on Neutron Rifle 135 - Proton Rifle with Spreader - 6d6 RKA with 8m radius AoE With my example you get the choice of whether to use it as a single target or AoE attack - and it costs the same. That is why I'm suggesting quite a radical re-think of NAs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armitage Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Re: Nudity for your benefit Not true any more under 6e if the scope is JUST for the Neutron Rifle (assuming I've read it right) It wasn't true for 5th Edition either. The cost differed based on whether the Naked Advantage applied to a group of Powers or a single Power. Group Naked Advantages based the cost on the Active Points of the affected Powers. ...the character defines the maximum Active Points the Advantage can apply to...The character "applies" the Naked Advantage to the defined Active Point total, then subtracts the defined Active Point total to determine the Naked Advantage's cost. Single Power Naked Advantages were calculated using the Base Points of the Power. ...recalculate the cost of the base Power as if it normally had the Naked Advantage. After you have that new cost, subtract the cost of the base power to determine the cost of the Naked Advantage. The Neutron Rifle with the Smart Scope would be: 90 - Neutron Rifle - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body 15 - Smart Scope - No Range Penalty on Neutron Rifle. No Range Penalty would only be applied to the 30 base points of the KA. It would only be 45 points if it applied to several Powers of up to 90 Active Points. The thing that was often forgotten about Single Power Naked Advantages, including by a few writers, is: All Advantages and Limitations applicable to the base power automatically apply to and/or function with the Naked Advantage, but do not alter its cost. 40 - Neutron Rifle - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body, OAF, 12 c. 15 - Smart Scope - No Range Penalty on Neutron Rifle. Total: 55 points. 47 - Neutron Rifle - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body, No Range Penalty, OAF, 12 c. So it actually costs 8 points extra to have the ability to turn off No Range Penalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 Re: Nudity for your benefit Well Sean, I don't have anything newer that Fred (I don't even have re-Fred), so rather than offering, I'm asking. No Sixth Edition to consult, after all. Have Naked Advantages changed in some significant way since 5th? If not, I think we're still going to stick with "Switchable" ( discussed here: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60195&highlight=switchable ) as opposed to going with Naked Advantages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZilla Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 Re: Nudity for your benefit That's true - in an extreme case, compare: 90 - Neutron Rifle - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body 45 - Smart Scope - No Range Penalty on Neutron Rifle. 105 - Neutron Rifle w/ Scope - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body, No Range Penalty Not true any more under 6e if the scope is JUST for the Neutron Rifle (assuming I've read it right), but also... 90 - Proton Rifle - 6d6 RKA 45 - Spreader - 8m radius AoE on Neutron Rifle 135 - Proton Rifle with Spreader - 6d6 RKA with 8m radius AoE With my example you get the choice of whether to use it as a single target or AoE attack - and it costs the same. That is why I'm suggesting quite a radical re-think of NAs. Sean, what about when the Naked Advantage is useable on a power that has it's own Advantages? Your example applies the NA to an un-Advantaged power, meaning your cost and 5ER's cost would thus be the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZilla Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 Re: Nudity for your benefit It wasn't true for 5th Edition either. The cost differed based on whether the Naked Advantage applied to a group of Powers or a single Power. Group Naked Advantages based the cost on the Active Points of the affected Powers. Single Power Naked Advantages were calculated using the Base Points of the Power. The Neutron Rifle with the Smart Scope would be: 90 - Neutron Rifle - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body 15 - Smart Scope - No Range Penalty on Neutron Rifle. No Range Penalty would only be applied to the 30 base points of the KA. It would only be 45 points if it applied to several Powers of up to 90 Active Points. The thing that was often forgotten about Single Power Naked Advantages, including by a few writers, is: 40 - Neutron Rifle - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body, OAF, 12 c. 15 - Smart Scope - No Range Penalty on Neutron Rifle. Total: 55 points. 47 - Neutron Rifle - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body, No Range Penalty, OAF, 12 c. So it actually costs 8 points extra to have the ability to turn off No Range Penalty. I would presume that if it were a Neutron/Proton/Electron Rifle built as a Multipower, a Smart Scope Naked Advantage for it would have to be purchased as a Group Naked Advantage... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 Re: Nudity for your benefit I'm very glad this didn't start with an anecdote about dog walking. Sean walking his dog in the nude would have been too traumatic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted September 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 Re: Nudity for your benefit I'm very glad this didn't start with an anecdote about dog walking. Sean walking his dog in the nude would have been too traumatic. Very bracing though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 Re: Nudity for your benefit ANYWAYS, any conversation on this issue I think has to at least consider how Multipowers work The cost for having an advantaged version and a non advantaged version tends to be on the low side For instance, using the neutron rifle setting above 135 Neutron Rifle MP 13 u with spreader 9u W/O Spreader that is only a cost of 22 points, less than a +1/4 advantage on the main power Not saying anyone is wrong, but that it is at least worth factorin into the cost arguments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 Re: Nudity for your benefit I'm very glad this didn't start with an anecdote about dog walking. Sean walking his dog in the nude would have been too traumatic. I don't know about you, but where I come from, people seldom dress their dogs to take them walking. In fact, I suspect most people do not have clothes for their dogs at all. Lucius Alexander What does a palindromedary have to hide? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaJoe3 Posted September 27, 2009 Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 Re: Nudity for your benefit I don't know about you, but where I come from, people seldom dress their dogs to take them walking. In fact, I suspect most people do not have clothes for their dogs at all. Most dogs will at least wear a collar. Also, dogs with short fur need a sweater in cold weather to keep from getting chilled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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