6E Mess

[Yansuf]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Problem #2: She could buy Shapeshift, where her height, weight, and appearance change, but this is counterproductive for what it offers. It costs SIXTY EIGHT points, which is likely less than Ember ever spent in limitations on Only in Hero ID.

 

IMHO, 68 points is WAY too much to pay for turning into a slightly hotter hot chick, and it's also WAY too much to pay for turning into Granite Boy.

 

Where do you get that it costs 68 points?

By my calculations the base (for All sense groups) is 25 points in 5ER, and only 19 points in 6th.

So for 31 points (5ER) or 24 points (6th) you can buy it with "only costs end to activate", even without applying any limitations/disadvantages.

[mattingly]

Re: 6E Mess

 

"Activation of Powers as a O Phase Action"

It amuses me that a capital O was typed here instead of a 0. Although O Phases are a lot more fun, they're far less common than 0 Phases.

[Tasha]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Where do you get that it costs 68 points?

By my calculations the base (for All sense groups) is 25 points in 5ER, and only 19 points in 6th.

So for 31 points (5ER) or 24 points (6th) you can buy it with "only costs end to activate", even without applying any limitations/disadvantages.

 

Shape Shift (Sight, Hearing, Mental, Radio, Smell/Taste and Touch Groups), Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (42 Active Points).

 

I guess if you added Cellular to change DNA it becomes 55pts, but shouldn't be necessary. If you did the External Version of Cellular it becomes 51 pts

 

Shape Shift (Sight, Hearing, Mental, Radio, Smell/Taste and Touch Groups), Cellular (Externals ie Retinas, Fingerprints, Hair follicles etc), Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (51 Active Points).

 

It really isn't needed. Enchanced Senses see you as you are NOW. Radar doesn't see The Thing or The Hulk as their trapped whimpy alter-egos, no does it see their Superdense and huge counterparts when they are in Human form. Really!

[Tasha]

Re: 6E Mess

 

It amuses me that a capital O was typed here instead of a 0. Although O Phases are a lot more fun' date=' they're far less common than 0 Phases.[/quote']

 

Tasha

[Yansuf]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Shape Shift (Sight, Hearing, Mental, Radio, Smell/Taste and Touch Groups), Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (42 Active Points).

 

I guess if you added Cellular to change DNA it becomes 55pts, but shouldn't be necessary. If you did the External Version of Cellular it becomes 51 pts

 

Shape Shift (Sight, Hearing, Mental, Radio, Smell/Taste and Touch Groups), Cellular (Externals ie Retinas, Fingerprints, Hair follicles etc), Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (51 Active Points).

 

It really isn't needed. Enchanced Senses see you as you are NOW. Radar doesn't see The Thing or The Hulk as their trapped whimpy alter-egos, no does it see their Superdense and huge counterparts when they are in Human form. Really!

 

I agree with your last point about radar.

In fact I think hearing cannot also.

So for 6th, Sight(8)+Mental(2)+Touch(2)+Smell/Taste(2)=14 points.

So add Persistent and Only costs endurance to activate (total +1/2) and we get: 21 points.

[Bloodstone]

Re: 6E Mess

 

You don't even need Radio Group to fool Radar or Hearing group to fool Sonar (though you are probably going to grab the latter for the voice change aspect). They both detect physical objects and are affect by the Touch Group.

 

Don't see why a character who's personality doesn't change would need mental group Shape Shift either.

 

The most I could see something like this costing would be 35 points, but I still wouldn't charge a PC for it.

[Balabanto]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Where do you get that it costs 68 points?

By my calculations the base (for All sense groups) is 25 points in 5ER, and only 19 points in 6th.

So for 31 points (5ER) or 24 points (6th) you can buy it with "only costs end to activate", even without applying any limitations/disadvantages.

 

But you have to buy O END, Persistent, and Inherent. Or the character changes back when knocked unconscious, and suppressing his shapeshift knocks him out of it if you don't purchase inherent.

[Tasha]

Re: 6E Mess

 

I agree with your last point about radar.

In fact I think hearing cannot also.

So for 6th, Sight(8)+Mental(2)+Touch(2)+Smell/Taste(2)=14 points.

So add Persistent and Only costs endurance to activate (total +1/2) and we get: 21 points.

 

I was going for a Kitchen sink writeup. It probably isn't really too in genre to have someone's scent change due to changing forms. Heck it's how Wolverine figured out the Peter Parker = Spidey.

 

Killer Shrike laid it out VERY well. nothing more really needs to be said. Bala needs another therapeutic read of 6E. Not just an assumption that everything is the same from 3e and 4e. That would fix many of his misconceptions of what the powers do and what is needed in this case.

 

Tasha

[Balabanto]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Oh, believe me, I spent many hours poring over the Multiform rules and trying to fix how broken this is.

 

My house rules are currently loaded with notes like "You may not buy DMCV through a technological device" and other things that enforce the theme and how powers work.

 

I already can't stand that the point cost of CSLs and having them add to damage isn't an optional rule and breaks the whole combat system. All combats now look like this. Get them down, hit them while they're down, put all your CSLs into damage. I can see this coming from a mile away. Legsweep is now ridiculously powerful. People wait for legsweep to go off, everyone puts their levels into Damage against half DCV since they're holding for the Legsweeper, BAM!

 

This was specifically designed to be a "System without limits." But if your world has limits, rebalancing it is very difficult. I still don't understand the balance point of making Armor Piercing a +1/4, and I've done the math on this 30 times, no joke. I don't understand the reworking of Area Effect. An 8d6 AP Blast in a 16 meter cone used to cost 100 points. This power went from "Unattainable for anyone except a master villain, at 100 points" to "the top of my power cap at 70 points." The problem with AOE Cone is this: People can buy flight. So really, what you have is a power that's just as effective as a 32 meter radius against everyone who can't fly, and is still pretty darned good against everyone who can, AND it's armor piercing. The problem isn't the advantage itself. It's the stackability of the advantage.

 

I've been struggling with some of the minutae of this system for a month, and it's becoming more and more frustrating that I can't get it right immediately. I'm supposed to be smart. I have an IQ of 180. I've published adventures for this system. This should be EASY! But it's not. I should be able to crunch these numbers and get everything balanced by the time the books arrive on my players doorsteps. But the idea of failure angers me a lot, and I don't like to lose.

[Ice9]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Wait, you're the DM? Then why is there even an issue with Multiform? You're not compelled to get tons of forms just because you can, you know. If you think what would be balanced is, say, a 400p "hero form" and a 50p "normal form", then just get 50p worth of stuff on the normal form and leave any other points unused.

 

It's no different than any other power. Just because you can use Mind Control (with many advantages) to get "everyone in the world is my minion" for less than 60 points, doesn't mean you have to or should, and it doesn't mean Mind Control is unusable for legitimate purposes. The final resulting power is what needs balancing, not the components that go into it.

 

 

I don't understand the reworking of Area Effect. An 8d6 AP Blast in a 16 meter cone used to cost 100 points.

For this specifically, keep in mind that in a campaign with ~25 DEF, 8d6 is not 2/3 as strong as 12d6, it's more like 1/6 as strong, because only ~1/6 as much damage gets past defenses. For this reason, the old pricing yielded AoE powers that were mostly useless against any credible opposition - 6d6 will barely scratch someone with 20 DEF. The only way to get any benefit from them was in combination with NND or similar. Personally, I'm glad this has changed.

[Greywind]

Re: 6E Mess

 

What is more important? Having fun or making sure the numbers add up exactly as you expect them to?

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Mess

 

It later says exactly what you said. So which is it? It cannot be both' date=' sir. [/quote']

 

It can be both and it is both.

 

There is no one absolute way to use the power. Your inability to see past that is not the systems fault.

 

I'm tired of you asking a question - getting a RAW answer and then telling us it's wrong. No wonder you have 48 pages of house rules for stuff that isn't broken.

[Balabanto]

Re: 6E Mess

 

What is more important? Having fun or making sure the numbers add up exactly as you expect them to?

 

The most important thing is that the CHARACTERS not change, and the way the numbers work that tell the best stories not change. There's also a fairness issue vis a vis the players in the game.

 

The most fun happens when the best stories are told and the players in the game aren't fighting over who got the best break. The numbers NEED to work right. If not, I'll change them. But every time so far with a conversion, I've been correct right out of the box, and the game continued as if nothing had happened. This time, I know that this isn't going to happen because of the rules on CSLs alone.

 

Armor Piercing at +1/4 changes the way EVERYONE in the game fights. You have to take design into account when figuring out how an NPC is going to react to being hit and hurt. If you don't know how many hits are going to take someone down, you can't figure out important things, like "Is he going to cut and run? Is he going to take hostages?" It also increases the number of people with hardened defenses. I am concerned that certain key things, like Combat Skill Levels and Armor Piercing, are so effective that every villain in the game will have to be redesigned to cope with them. And if that's the case, then they're broken. (See the old 4th edition creation checklist. Your mileage may vary, and you can feel free to disagree with me) Hardened, also, now falls into this category. If enough people buy armor piercing, Hardened suddenly becomes common, as everyone scrambles to buy defenses to prevent it.

 

Plus, Armor Piercing is broken because of it's stackability. It's 8d6 AP 16 meter cone for 100 points in 5th. The same power in 6th costs 70. This is broken because people can buy flight. Period. That cone is now 32 meters wide, hits everything on the ground, forces dozens of people to waste their actions and hits most people for 15 stun per hit. And you know, it's still pretty good against the people it catches in the air. For the tradeoff, many of the guy's fellow PC's might be willing to take that damage. It may not seem broken to you, but it sure seems broken to me. You cannot convince me that 15 stun to everything on a battlemap when your average agent has a con of around 13, thus defeating an entire tactical situation in a single attack, does not make the other players feel like there was a need for them to be there. I don't run games where the only purpose of the Justice League is to kick the Kryptonite out of the way for Superman. Granted, the second time this happens, every agent on the battlefield will probably shoot at that character, but quite frankly, I try to manage the resources of my agencies so that they're fairly distributed.

 

The removal of CSLs adding to damage as an optional rule also does that.

 

A good game doesn't have wars of escalation. It prevents them from the start. Every game I've ever played in that had a war of escalation eventually collapsed under it's own weight.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Mess

 

I still don't understand the balance point of making Armor Piercing a +1/4' date=' and I've done the math on this 30 times, no joke.[/quote']

 

Post your math, let's take a look at it.

[teh bunneh]

Re: 6E Mess

 

If I may be frank, I've always detected a strong "GM vs. Players" theme when Balabanto posts about his campaigns. The players try to screw him by coming up with ways to break the system and/or the game, so he screws them right back by creating an enormous list of House Rules that forbid whatever the last player tried to do. And back and forth, the cycle continues.

 

Me, I play with people who's main goal is for the whole group (not just one person) to have fun. Nobody wastes any time trying to come up with the most broken combination possible, or try to squeeze every last joule of advantage out of their points. No player in my games has ever said, "I spent 10 points on Shapeshift to Smell/Taste, but when she Multiforms into her Elephant form she gets a whole different scent for free, and that's not fair!" The concept is completely foreign to me. It would just never happen... and if it did happen, I'd just laugh and we'd keep playing.

 

But, you know. Diff'rent strokes. Game on, brother.

[Greywind]

Re: 6E Mess

 

We start carrying semi-automatics, they buy automatics. We start wearing kevlar … they buy armor-piercing rounds. And you're wearing a mask … and jumping off rooftops. ~ James Gordon Batman Begins

[Bloodstone]

Re: 6E Mess

 

Oh' date=' believe me, I spent many hours poring over the Multiform rules and trying to fix how broken this is.[/quote']

 

It's not really broken...

 

My house rules are currently loaded with notes like "You may not buy DMCV through a technological device" and other things that enforce the theme and how powers work.

 

Seems needlessly arbitrary, but I don't know what the basis of your game is. Tech based mental protection devices like headbands, helmets and force fields are all very much in genre.

 

I already can't stand that the point cost of CSLs and having them add to damage isn't an optional rule and breaks the whole combat system.

 

Adding damage with levels wasn't an optional rule in 5E, as far as I know... I believe the mechanics are now unified between heroic and superheroic games, but otherwise it's same as it ever was.

 

All combats now look like this. Get them down, hit them while they're down, put all your CSLs into damage. I can see this coming from a mile away. Legsweep is now ridiculously powerful. People wait for legsweep to go off, everyone puts their levels into Damage against half DCV since they're holding for the Legsweeper, BAM!

 

So you're players weren't already doing this? Seems to imply they either didn't want to or didn't understand it was already possible...

 

Setup maneuvers have pretty much worked just like that for as log as I have played. Grab, Entangle, Flash, Invisibility and Darkness can provide similar utility. Kick the guy while he''s down is such a basic tactic that they teach it on the playground in Kindergarten...

 

If you didn't see it from a mile away back then, I'm not sure you should be patting yourself on the back for finally realizing it now.

 

I still don't understand the balance point of making Armor Piercing a +1/4, and I've done the math on this 30 times, no joke.

 

I haven't done the math 30 times. I don't need to. AP as a +1/2 advantage was a losing game in most scenarios. It underperformed and was often not an advantage at all.

 

I've been struggling with some of the minutae of this system for a month, and it's becoming more and more frustrating that I can't get it right immediately. I'm supposed to be smart. I have an IQ of 180. I've published adventures for this system. This should be EASY! But it's not.

 

There are three options that spring immediately to mind here:

 

you're a great deal smarter than all of us and have discovered flaws with the system that none of us can even percieve yet.

 

you're not as smart as you think you are...

 

or, most likely, you're really just over thinking it man.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 6E Mess

 

The first sentence, right at the top of the Multiform block, states

 

"A character with this Standard Power can change his original form into one or more other forms, each with its own abilities, personality, and

Characteristics."

The key word there is can, which is not the same as must.

[Balabanto]

Re: 6E Mess

 

If I may be frank, I've always detected a strong "GM vs. Players" theme when Balabanto posts about his campaigns. The players try to screw him by coming up with ways to break the system and/or the game, so he screws them right back by creating an enormous list of House Rules that forbid whatever the last player tried to do. And back and forth, the cycle continues.

 

Me, I play with people who's main goal is for the whole group (not just one person) to have fun. Nobody wastes any time trying to come up with the most broken combination possible, or try to squeeze every last joule of advantage out of their points. No player in my games has ever said, "I spent 10 points on Shapeshift to Smell/Taste, but when she Multiforms into her Elephant form she gets a whole different scent for free, and that's not fair!" The concept is completely foreign to me. It would just never happen... and if it did happen, I'd just laugh and we'd keep playing.

 

But, you know. Diff'rent strokes. Game on, brother.

 

Actually, my players don't try to screw me. Most of this is all theme enforcement, Mr. Rabbit, sir.

 

That AP Blast I just talked about. Let's envision Giants Stadium, or better yet, let's use the Indianpolis Colts stadium, it doesn't matter, it's just that we hang out at Gencon, so I'm trying to put this into your mind so you can think about it. 70 points, 8d6 AP Blast is half a football field. That cone covers half a football field from 32 meters up. Double the radius to get the area, that's 64 meters or so, or about the distance from the goal posts to the 50 yard line.

 

Now try to fit that on a battlemap. It's a question of envisioning what people think about, roleplaywise, when this cone comes shooting down at them. They can't dive for cover. There's almost nowhere they can dive to. They WILL fail their roll, except for the lucky few on the edges who might be able to dive into the seats and gain about 5-6 additional defense from foam padding. But it doesn't matter. They're probably still stunned. So they take the damage and are stunned. I freely admit I use a lot of agents. But I don't want agents to be as souped up as the supers, and I can't fit this thing on my playing table. (And my playing table is 4.5 feet by 10 feet. I treat my gamers like gold when they hang out in my basement)

 

Now let's replay that on a crowded street at rush hour at NYC. Only now, it's not a PC using the attack. It's a villain. What reason does the villain have to not just say "Ha. All right. You may arrest me, but I'll kill 500 people. Go ahead, take a shot at me." Hold action. Unless the villain has a psychological limitation that prevents him or her from doing this, the PC's just lost, no matter what happens. And THAT's not fair. Because the situation either favors the players completely, or the GM completely.

 

Now, lets' do the Armor Piercing math for GA. I will freely admit that if you do standard effect, the Armor Piercing advantage is balanced at 1/4. I will concede that point right now, and move on to what happens when you actually roll dice.

 

Randomly, you have an equal chance of rolling any number equally on 1d6 from 1 to 6. The average defenses in my game are somewhere between 20 and 25, so I'm going to be generous, and choose 25. We're going to ignore knockback damage because on average, most of the situations we're dealing with won't deal any, but I will get back to knockback at the end.

 

1+2+3+4+5+6=3.5 3.5 per die vs 10d6, 12d6, and 14d6. An average character has around 40 stun.

 

10d6=50 points, so the equivalent AP Blast would be 8d6.

 

12d6 is approximately 10d6-1, so we'll use that, because it's as close as we can come.

 

14d6 is closest to 11d6 AP Blast, except that the AP Blast costs one point less.

 

10d6 deals 10 points of damage. Body is irrelevant. 8d6 AP deals, RAW, not my house rule where everything rounds in favor of the defender, 27-12=15.

 

12d6 deals 17, that's 42-25. 10d6-1 AP is 34-12, 22. That's 5 stun difference. This is the actual point where it breaks. Two shots of that, and your average character is at -4. He is out of the fight until the next phase unless someone else gives him a recovery. The alternative, 34, the character is still on his feet, and takes another hit to bring him to -11. Three shots and finished. This is the way Champions combat has worked since time immemorial.

 

14d6 deals 49, against 25, that's 24. Likely, this character is stunned. (Assuming an average con of 23, maybe not so for a powerful experienced character, but then, that character probably won't be stunned.). 11d6 costs one point less, but that deals 38-12=26. The target is still stunned.

 

However, let's follow through with that second shot. The second shot is fired. 24 again brings the character to -8. Still in the fight. 26 brings that character to -12. Out of the fight until phase 12.

 

Although the numbers may have changed slightly, the numbers on the recovery chart did not. And this is why I think Armor Piercing is broken at +1/4, because it brings people to the -11+ recovery categories much faster than was ever possible before. People now have to spend their time using actions to help their fellows recover. And that means that they are taking their full phase to eat the same thing.

[Balabanto]

Re: 6E Mess

 

The knockback on this is actually a separate issue. I don't WANT them to be knocked back. I get more range mods. I have to move. I don't want to do those things. I want them to be half-DCV and as close as I can get them so that when I shoot them again, I don't have any range penalties. Armor Piercing actually helps me, because the targets are closer.

[Tasha]

Re: 6E Mess

 

The most important thing is that the CHARACTERS not change, and the way the numbers work that tell the best stories not change. There's also a fairness issue vis a vis the players in the game.

 

The most fun happens when the best stories are told and the players in the game aren't fighting over who got the best break. The numbers NEED to work right. If not, I'll change them. But every time so far with a conversion, I've been correct right out of the box, and the game continued as if nothing had happened. This time, I know that this isn't going to happen because of the rules on CSLs alone.

 

Armor Piercing at +1/4 changes the way EVERYONE in the game fights. You have to take design into account when figuring out how an NPC is going to react to being hit and hurt. If you don't know how many hits are going to take someone down, you can't figure out important things, like "Is he going to cut and run? Is he going to take hostages?" It also increases the number of people with hardened defenses. I am concerned that certain key things, like Combat Skill Levels and Armor Piercing, are so effective that every villain in the game will have to be redesigned to cope with them. And if that's the case, then they're broken. (See the old 4th edition creation checklist. Your mileage may vary, and you can feel free to disagree with me) Hardened, also, now falls into this category. If enough people buy armor piercing, Hardened suddenly becomes common, as everyone scrambles to buy defenses to prevent it.

 

Plus, Armor Piercing is broken because of it's stackability. It's 8d6 AP 16 meter cone for 100 points in 5th. The same power in 6th costs 70. This is broken because people can buy flight. Period. That cone is now 32 meters wide, hits everything on the ground, forces dozens of people to waste their actions and hits most people for 15 stun per hit. And you know, it's still pretty good against the people it catches in the air. For the tradeoff, many of the guy's fellow PC's might be willing to take that damage. It may not seem broken to you, but it sure seems broken to me. You cannot convince me that 15 stun to everything on a battlemap when your average agent has a con of around 13, thus defeating an entire tactical situation in a single attack, does not make the other players feel like there was a need for them to be there. I don't run games where the only purpose of the Justice League is to kick the Kryptonite out of the way for Superman. Granted, the second time this happens, every agent on the battlefield will probably shoot at that character, but quite frankly, I try to manage the resources of my agencies so that they're fairly distributed.

 

The removal of CSLs adding to damage as an optional rule also does that.

 

A good game doesn't have wars of escalation. It prevents them from the start. Every game I've ever played in that had a war of escalation eventually collapsed under it's own weight.

 

First the numbers and Rules don't tell stories. That's what the Players and GM are there for. The rules give a foundation that you can hang stories on, but the stories come from the Gm and Players in the game.

 

Been playing heroic games since 1e Fantasy Hero with that ruleset on Skill Levels. Never a huge problem. It takes 2x 3point Skill levels to = 1DC increased. Now in my experience we never had characters that had more than 6 Combat Skill levels (I guess there were some folk with some 2pt OCV CSLs but those don't count). Which means that someone could add 3d6 to an unAdvantaged Blast or 1d6 to a Killing Attack. Of course the person doing that has base CV (Or less if they Haymaker). So again I don't see how 3DC's can hose a Champions game. Now players using standard Tactics, THEY are the dangerous ones.

 

Hell, I have been running games with the same lack of houserules for over 20 years (Both Champions, Fantasy Hero, Cyber Hero, and Star Hero, but mostly Champions). I let the players take what ever powers they want (I even allow Cosmic Power Pools). I make sure that everyone is balanced and we go and have fun. I am flexable like a palm tree, if the characters want to go into left field. Well I give them a humdinger of a left field and we have fun.

 

I'll say it again. I have few Houserules. I have the campaign limits (Averages and maximums) for buying nearly everything (ie Avg DC 12 max pts 75). I set the point limit higher than normal (ie 500pts inc. 75 Complications) (To get interesting non-generic PCs). I work with the players to make sure that team roles are filled and that roles aren't over filled. Then we play. I do whatever is best to have fun.

 

One thing that I learned from the over prepared, over tense GM's that I played with though the years was this one thing. Flexability makes for some of the best games that your players will ever experience. GM vs Player groups are the most miserable folk to play with. They say they are having fun, but it's really one simmering fight between everyone.

 

If I were you, I would take that binder of houserules and throw them in the nearest firesafe recepticle and burn them! Throw off your chains of inflexability! Learn to appreciate the wonderful rules as they are written! When rules/plot questions come up. Think what would be the most fun for the players! Funny how just this last bit of rethink will change everything for the better.

 

I am going to try to ignore this thread now. Bala's threads make me more tense than an NGD discussion on Marriage Rights. try real hard.... may not be able too...temptation is very strong...

[Greywind]

Re: 6E Mess

 

"You must spread Rep around... yadda, yadda..."

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Mess

 

The knockback on this is actually a separate issue. I don't WANT them to be knocked back. I get more range mods. I have to move. I don't want to do those things. I want them to be half-DCV and as close as I can get them so that when I shoot them again' date=' I don't have any range penalties. Armor Piercing actually helps me, because the targets are closer.[/quote']

 

Knockback is an OPTIONAL rule, and therefore, in my eyes, a non-consideration when pricing the Core Rules.

 

I'll get to the math later on when I have time to analyze what it is you posted, and then post some counter numbers.

[torchwolf]

Re: 6E Mess

 

But you have to buy O END' date=' Persistent, and Inherent. Or the character changes back when knocked unconscious, and suppressing his shapeshift knocks him out of it if you don't purchase inherent.[/quote']

 

 

Does that imply that you consider it necessary to purchase a Power to make any physical change? Otherwise, Killer Shrike covered it.

 

Secondly, you seem to be unaware of the "activation of powers" concept.

****************************************

ACTIVATING POWERS

Unless a Power’s description says otherwise,

activating or “turning on” a Power is a Zero Phase

Action, even if activating it causes or requires

physical changes in the character, his powers, or

his equipment. For example, even if a character

activates his Powers by transforming from a

human into a man-beast, converting his clothes

into a suit of powered armor, or reconfiguring a

gadget into another type of gadget, they still only

take a Zero Phase Action to activate — the fact

that he physically transforms himself or something

else doesn’t change the required activation

time.

*************************************

 

A lot of classic "heroic id" cases are covered solely by activation of powers, without any further need for any other ability. Its only a limitation on powers if something prevents the character for turning them on / changing into their "hero id" as a 0-phase action.

 

It can, however, be interpreted to mean that you would change back (if Knocked Out etc.), unless the Powers that are bought OIAID are also bought as Persistent. That may be up to the GM if he preferred it to be otherwise. If so, it should probably be reduced to a -0 Limitation, but it could also be a House Rule. You choice, really.

 

 

Oh, believe me, I spent many hours poring over the Multiform rules and trying to fix how broken this is.

 

My house rules are currently loaded with notes like "You may not buy DMCV through a technological device" and other things that enforce the theme and how powers work.

 

I already can't stand that the point cost of CSLs and having them add to damage isn't an optional rule and breaks the whole combat system. All combats now look like this. Get them down, hit them while they're down, put all your CSLs into damage. I can see this coming from a mile away. Legsweep is now ridiculously powerful. People wait for legsweep to go off, everyone puts their levels into Damage against half DCV since they're holding for the Legsweeper, BAM!

 

This was specifically designed to be a "System without limits." But if your world has limits, rebalancing it is very difficult. I still don't understand the balance point of making Armor Piercing a +1/4, and I've done the math on this 30 times, no joke. I don't understand the reworking of Area Effect. An 8d6 AP Blast in a 16 meter cone used to cost 100 points. This power went from "Unattainable for anyone except a master villain, at 100 points" to "the top of my power cap at 70 points." The problem with AOE Cone is this: People can buy flight. So really, what you have is a power that's just as effective as a 32 meter radius against everyone who can't fly, and is still pretty darned good against everyone who can, AND it's armor piercing. The problem isn't the advantage itself. It's the stackability of the advantage.

 

I've been struggling with some of the minutae of this system for a month, and it's becoming more and more frustrating that I can't get it right immediately. I'm supposed to be smart. I have an IQ of 180. I've published adventures for this system. This should be EASY! But it's not. I should be able to crunch these numbers and get everything balanced by the time the books arrive on my players doorsteps. But the idea of failure angers me a lot, and I don't like to lose.

 

I think it may be a matter of your strategy. Things are probably more open to abuse from 4th, through 5th, through 6th edition, but constructing many house rules may compound your problem.

Steve Long has quite a knack for taking some effort to state things carefully worded, to leave as little room as possible for ambiguity. OTOH, that makes House Rules more likely to clash with the rules. I can see what you mean in some respect, though I looked through my own old House Rules which were written mostly to expand on vague issues; 5ER covered most of those cases, and with 6E there is less than 10% of those House Rules that I really need for any reasonable purpose (an expanded Aura Color Chart complementing UM/PH, and such stuff), and with the APG my amount of House Rules will be reduced even further.

I'd suggest you inverse the process, revising your House Rules based on 6E instead of the other way around, if that is indeed how you are going about it. Take notes of the possible abuses Steve Long already identified and make that the basis for your House Rules analysis.

From what I've found so far in the 6E rules, I have located some details that I wondered about, but 6E is so well cross-referenced that the solutions to possible problems are mostly covered. Only thing so far is that Mental Damage Negation, Only vs STUN, should probably be reduced to -0. Still, in a campaign with lots of AVAD attacks might motivate a higher Limitation, so there is still nothing fundamentally wrong there.

 

 

As far as your examples, you seem to be bypassing your Active Point Cap of 70. That would be an Armor Piercing Blast of max 11d6; a Narrow Cone AP Blast max of 9d6?

Also, in that case the average defenses could probably be beefed up to 30 or even 35 unless you want really quick fights.

 

 

If I've misunderstood your issue, please accept my apologies and disregard this post.

[torchwolf]

Re: 6E Mess

 

It amuses me that a capital O was typed here instead of a 0. Although O Phases are a lot more fun' date=' they're far less common than 0 Phases.[/quote']

 

Yes, the O Phases are generally reserved for those being extensively PRE Attacked; the worst affected occasionally get an Oo Phase in addition.