Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

[Armitage]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

This seems a very light penalty - is that -1 to the roll (rather than the stat)' date=' such that it's really -5 to the stat?. [/quote']

 

As written, it was 1 point from each attribute per night.

[torchwolf]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

Going back to ancient history, Adventurer's Club #13 had an article, "Death in the Great Outdoors" by Greg Porter, that included sleep deprivation.

A character needs 24/REC hours of sleep each night. This works well for normal humans, but a lot of superhumans would then need little or no sleep.

Well' date=' 1 point of Life Support reduces it to 8 hours/week, which is effectively an hour per night. And the Supers source materials are full of examples of characters operating effectively after "not sleeping for a week".[/quote']

Especially nightly patrolling heroes who have a day job...

There have been a few instances in the Batman and Spider-Man comics where they suffered for it though.

I actually have that AC issue, and I toyed with those numbers years ago, but gave it up because those rules would have caused such awkward results in my Champions game.

 

This also starts the typicaly character with a need for 6 hours/night' date=' rather than 8 hours. We could increase the numerator to, say, 30. That would leave Joe Average needing 7.5 hours per night, and 3 REC needs 10 hours. The probolem at the low end is any drop will have a substantial impact.[/quote']

Such as babies might need to sleep 30 hours per night, which is blatantly untrue.

 

Maybe we could start with the presumption that people need 8 hours of sleep per night' date=' and start assessing penalties if they get less than they need, removing the link to REC.[/quote']

This assumption could stand as it is, or you could establish that humans generally need a base sleep period of [19 - (CON Roll)] hours per day, as a default value, with a minimum sleep period of 2 hours.

In that case, characters with a CON of 43 or greater would effectively need only 2 hours of sleep per night, and someone with a CON of 2 or less would need 10 hours per night.

Or 8 hours could just be established as the human default, it would have little bearing on most games anyway.

 

You could also state this the other way - humans can stay awake for 24 hours minus their sleep period.

NOTE: This varies with age - kids and teenagers need 1-2 more hours of sleep, and around age 40-60, many people need 1-2 hours less. For months at a time, you can cut back on sleep every other week by 20-30 %, but this is unhealthy (as anyone who have worked shifts or nights can testify).

 

-1 EGO, INT, and PRE per night without enough sleep.

EGO roll to avoid distraction during boring or repetitive tasks. Fall asleep if the roll is missed by 2 or more.

This seems a very light penalty - is that -1 to the roll (rather than the stat)' date=' such that it's really -5 to the stat?. Maybe the penalty should be -1 for every hour, or every two hours, of sleep missed. Ego roll to avoid falling asleep when the opportunity presents itself seems reasonable, but maybe only after (say) 4 hours or more sleep missed (or a -3 total penalty accumulated).[/quote']

Most people are able to stay awake for 20 hours before sleeping with relative ease (say an EGO Roll at + 3), and then periods of tiredness occur with some regularity, about 4 hours but depending on a lot of factors, of course. 4-hour intervals seems reasonable for accumulating a penalty to the EGO Roll to stay awake (thus EGO Roll + 2 after 24 hours, reduced by 1 for every 4 hours after that).

I'm not sure if all 3 Char Rolls should be penalized at once, it might be better if the player could choose, actually; -1 to one of INT, EGO, or PRE Rolls, including Skills based off those Characteristics.

I also think that there should be a penalty to DEX for Initiative purposes (sleep deprivation definitely affects reaction speed while driving, for instance).

These reductions would alternate, and it depends in some degree on personality and current focus whether you become reduced in concentration on mental tasks (INT), reduced in patience and ability to make decisions or prioritize (EGO), reduced in ability to interact and communicate coherently (PRE), or have a reduced reaction speed (DEX).

 

So:

1) For every hour after being awake for a full 24 hours, the character must subtract 1 from Initiative or either of INT, EGO,or PRE Rolls (including Skills based on that Characteristic). This penalty must alternate so there is a -1 to all 4 after 4 hours.

2) In addition to this, the character loses 1 Long-Term END for every hour staying awake after 24 hours. Eventually, the character must use STUN, when he runs out of END. When he runs out of STUN, he falls unconscious.

3) Every 4 hours, the character also makes an EGO Roll to stay awake (beginning after 20 hours at a +2, reduced by 1 per 4 hours after that) if he isn't concentrating on an important task - one that he doesn't find boring (if the character skipped one stay-awake roll because he was concentrating on a task, he then makes two rolls instead after 8 hours, at the accumulated penalty).

If this EGO Roll is failed by just 1-2, the character lapses into momentary sleep (micro-sleep), but recovers from this quickly, as if having been Stunned. If it is failed by 3 or more, the character falls asleep, but wakes up immediately if he hurts himself (likely if sitting, standing, or moving) and must attempt the last EGO Roll again until he remains either awake, asleep, or unconscious.

The GM should allow for postponing the stay-awake Roll if he is traveling a brief distance when the time rolls up. Alternately, the GM could randomize the time interval by rolling 1d6 hours until the next stay-awake Roll instead applying a strict 4-hour period.

 

Sleeping for twice as long as needed negates all accumulated penalties.

That seems excessive. Miss one night's sleep and you need 3 days of 8 hours' date=' or 16 straight hours, to catch up? Maybe 6 hours to negate one penalty stage, and another eliminated for each extra hour (or perhaps even faster)?[/quote']

I would actually think that 4 hours is enough to alleviate all but 2 points of penalties - 6 hours could remove all but a -1 penalty, and 8 hours should suffice to reduce all penalties.

This might be a bit undramatic in the game though, so maybe 4 hours should reduce penalties to a max total of -4, and 6 hours provide a reduction to max total of -2.

In case of repeated sleep deprivation, the character might not recover fully until after sleeping an extra 25-50 % of a normal sleep period (a total of 10-12 hours after working shifts for a week or two correspond well to how it works out for most people).

 

Oops - didn't mean for this to become so long. Must be because I'm tired.

 

EDIT: Added in END and some more detail.

[dmjalund]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

too little sleep also makes it difficult to learn and remember things

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

This assumption could stand as it is' date=' or you could establish that humans generally need a base sleep period of [19 - (CON Roll)'] hours per day, as a default value, with a minimum sleep period of 2 hours.

In that case, characters with a CON of 43 or greater would effectively need only 2 hours of sleep per night, and someone with a CON of 2 or less would need 10 hours per night.

Or 8 hours could just be established as the human default, it would have little bearing on most games anyway.

 

If sleep requirements are based on CON, REC or what have you, we get the discrepancy of free Life Support. That's fine - we could ditch "no need for sleep" if desired. However, if we're keeping the need for sleep in general, I think that need should have a fixed baseline. Do people vary? Sure. They also vary from a height of 2 meters and a weight of 100 kg, and in how much, and how often, they need food and water. We make some assumptions to support playability. Setting a baseline for sleep that everyone lives with isn't a huge compromise in this regard.

 

Most people are able to stay awake for 20 hours before sleeping with relative ease (say an EGO Roll at + 3)' date=' and then periods of tiredness occur with some regularity, about 4 hours but depending on a lot of factors, of course. 4-hour intervals seems reasonable for accumulating a penalty to the EGO Roll to stay awake (thus EGO Roll + 2 after 24 hours, reduced by 1 for every 4 hours after that).[/quote']

 

That works with 8 hours in 24 - after missing 4 hours, you need that very simple Ego roll to stay awake. After a full day without sleep, it's an EGO roll at +2 (13- for Jope Average, or over 80%), and won't become more difficult for another 16 hours. Someone with a good Ego could push into 3 or 4 days, especially if not given the opportunity to sleep. The Ego roll could receive bonuses for cafiene, and for physical exertion or emotional states such as fear.

 

I'm not sure if all 3 Char Rolls should be penalized at once, it might be better if the player could choose, actually; -1 to one of INT, EGO, or PRE Rolls, including Skills based off those Characteristics.

I also think that there should be a penalty to DEX for Initiative purposes (sleep deprivation definitely affects reaction speed while driving, for instance).

These reductions would alternate, and it depends in some degree on personality and current focus whether you become reduced in concentration on mental tasks (INT), reduced in patience and ability to make decisions or prioritize (EGO), reduced in ability to interact and communicate coherently (PRE), or have a reduced reaction speed (DEX).

 

I don't like "player choice" for such penalties. If my character is a big, dumb brute, I'll take INT roll penalties so I'm not really penalized. Maybe all of them should be penalized, but just take, say, 1-3 (roll) off each stat for each 4 hours missed. That will average 4 per stat (likely -1 to rolls) for every full night's sleep missed.

 

I would also suggest that either the penalty to EGO does not change the required roll to stay awake, or the roll to stay awake is fixed at an EGO roll +3, and the stat reduction applies instead of further penalties.

 

I would actually think that 4 hours is enough to alleviate all but 2 points of penalties - 6 hours could remove all but a -1 penalty, and 8 hours should suffice to reduce all penalties.

This might be a bit undramatic in the game though, so maybe 4 hours should reduce penalties to a max total of -4, and 6 hours provide a reduction to max total of -2.

In case of repeated sleep deprivation, the character might not recover fully until after sleeping an extra 25-50 % of a normal sleep period (a total of 10-12 hours after working shifts for a week or two correspond well to how it works out for most people).

 

Maybe every 4 hours of sleep recovers 1d3 to penalized stats.

[torchwolf]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

If sleep requirements are based on CON' date=' REC or what have you, we get the discrepancy of free Life Support. That's fine - we could ditch "no need for sleep" if desired. However, if we're keeping the need for sleep in general, I think that need should have a fixed baseline. Do people vary? Sure. They also vary from a height of 2 meters and a weight of 100 kg, and in how much, and how often, they need food and water. We make some assumptions to support playability. Setting a baseline for sleep that everyone lives with isn't a huge compromise in this regard.[/quote']

I suggested a minimum of 2 hours of sleep regardless of CON since 1 pt of Life Support just because the "free Life Support" granted would be equal to less than 1 pt. I agree that it is mostly needless to calculate something like this, though, for the very reasons you give.

 

That works with 8 hours in 24 - after missing 4 hours' date=' you need that very simple Ego roll to stay awake. After a full day without sleep, it's an EGO roll at +2 (13- for Jope Average, or over 80%), and won't become more difficult for another 16 hours. Someone with a good Ego could push into 3 or 4 days, especially if not given the opportunity to sleep. The Ego roll could receive bonuses for cafiene, and for physical exertion or emotional states such as fear.[/quote']

Good points!

 

I don't like "player choice" for such penalties. If my character is a big' date=' dumb brute, I'll take INT roll penalties so I'm not really penalized. Maybe all of them should be penalized, but just take, say, 1-3 (roll) off each stat for each 4 hours missed. That will average 4 per stat (likely -1 to rolls) for every full night's sleep missed.[/quote']

Hmm. More good points. I would rather calculate the penalty for staying awake based on total time without sleeping, though.

 

I would also suggest that either the penalty to EGO does not change the required roll to stay awake' date=' or the roll to stay awake is fixed at an EGO roll +3, and the stat reduction applies instead of further penalties.[/quote']

Taking these points into account below.

 

Maybe every 4 hours of sleep recovers 1d3 to penalized stats.

Taking recovery effects into account below.

 

 

Sleep Deprivation v1.1 (modified from suggestions by Hugh Neilson; further streamlined for ease of use and conformity with Time Chart)

 

As a general rule, humans need 8 hours of sleep in every 24 hours. At the GM's option, a character can reduce this to 1-7 hours of sleep needed per 24 hours by buying 1 pt of Life Support (Diminished Sleep).

 

After being awake for 24 hours straight, a character begins to suffer from sleep deprivation - for each 6 hours beyond 24 hours spent awake, the character suffers the following penalties:

1) The character must subtract 1d3 from DEX, INT, EGO, and PRE (the reduced Characteristic affects all Rolls, including Skills, based on that Characteristic). Optional Rule: If entering combat, the character may use the optional Hurry Combat Maneuver to temporarily disregard all penalties to DEX, lasting for that Phase (or for the duration of the combat after using it once, at the GM's option). This simulates adrenaline compensating for some of the fatigue accumulated.

2) The character loses 1d3 Long-Term END. Eventually, the character must use STUN (per the normal rules for using STUN as END), when he runs out of END. When he runs out of STUN, he falls unconscious.

3) The character also makes an EGO Roll to stay awake (beginning after 24 hours at a +3, reduced by 1 per 6 hours after that) if he isn't concentrating on an important task - one that he doesn't find boring (if the character skipped one stay-awake roll because he was concentrating on a task, he then makes two rolls instead after 12 hours, at the accumulated penalty). If this EGO Roll is failed by just 1-2, the character lapses into momentary sleep (micro-sleep), but recovers from this quickly, as if having been Stunned. If it is failed by 3 or more, the character falls asleep, but wakes up immediately if he hurts himself (likely if sitting, standing, or moving) and must attempt the last EGO Roll again until he remains either awake, asleep, or unconscious.

 

The GM should allow for postponing the stay-awake Roll if he is traveling a brief distance when the time rolls up.

Alternately, the GM could randomize the time interval (for instance by rolling 1d6 hours until the next stay-awake Roll) instead of applying a strict 6-hour period.

 

Modifiers to Stay-Awake Roll:

+1 to +3 Stimulants (such as caffeine, etc - these are mostly reduced in effect if repeatedly applied)

+1 to +3 State of physical readiness (continuous movement, physical activity, performing tasks, etc)

+1 to +3 Motivation (charged emotional states such as fear, excitement, etc)

-3 to +3 Psychology (applicable Complications may add or subtract 1 for Moderate Intensity, 2 for Strong, 3 for Total, at the GM's discretion)

 

Recovering for Sleep Deprivation:

Reducing these penalties by 1d3 per Characteristic requires 6 hours of sleep as a Base Period.

Taking a shorter nap requires an EGO or CON Roll, whichever is worse, at a penalty of -3 per step up the Time Chart.

 

Extended Sleep Depreivation:

In general, a character can get by with less sleep than necessary for extended periods, but may at the GM's discretion suffer the penalties above (except for Stay-Awake Rolls) after a month of sleeping for less than 6 hours per night, inflicted weekly. If sleeping for less than 1 hour per night, penalties begin after a week, inflicted daily, and so on.

 

 

NOTES: Need for sleep varies with age - kids and teenagers need 1-2 more hours of sleep, and around age 40-60, many people need 1-2 hours less. For months at a time, you can cut back on sleep every other week by 20-30 %, but this is unhealthy (as anyone who have worked shifts or nights can testify).

Characteristic penalties reductions would depend in some degree on personality and current focus, whether you become reduced in concentration on mental tasks (INT), reduced in patience and ability to make decisions or prioritize (EGO), reduced in ability to interact and communicate coherently (PRE), or have a reduced coordination and reaction speed (DEX).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

Sleep Deprivation v1.1 (modified from suggestions by Hugh Neilson; further streamlined for ease of use and conformity with Time Chart)

 

As a general rule, humans need 8 hours of sleep in every 24 hours. At the GM's option, a character can reduce this to 1-7 hours of sleep needed per 24 hours by buying 1 pt of Life Support (Diminished Sleep).

 

Perhaps, in keeping with the usual Hero approach, we might allow PC's and notable NPCs, being of hardier stock, to get by on as little as 6 hours per night. This seems like a reasonable starting point.

 

After being awake for 24 hours straight, a character begins to suffer from sleep deprivation - for each 6 hours beyond 24 hours spent awake, the character suffers the following penalties:

1) The character must subtract 1d3 from DEX, INT, EGO, and PRE (the reduced Characteristic affects all Rolls, including Skills, based on that Characteristic).

 

24 hours seems a reasonable starting point. Perhaps a bit shorter than cinematic, but easily changed. If an individual character wants to go longer, 1 point LS could allow only 2 or 3 days without sleep, or reduce the penalties.

 

Optional Rule: If entering combat' date=' the character may use the optional Hurry Combat Maneuver to temporarily disregard all penalties to DEX, lasting for that Phase (or for the duration of the combat after using it once, at the GM's option). This simulates adrenaline compensating for some of the fatigue accumulated.[/quote']

 

I don't like the idea that a fixed penalty can offset the entire DEX penalty. Besides, characters in combat who have not been sleep deprived also have adrenaline pumping - why does that have more impact on someone fatigued?

 

2) The character loses 1d3 Long-Term END. Eventually' date=' the character must use STUN (per the normal rules for using STUN as END), when he runs out of END. When he runs out of STUN, he falls unconscious.[/quote']

 

The normal rules for using STUN for END are transient. Losing 1d6 STUN every 6 hours is quickly recovered. I would suggest, rather, that this is "long-term STUN", much like a Drain which does not recover until the character gets some rest.

 

3) The character also makes an EGO Roll to stay awake (beginning after 24 hours at a +3' date=' reduced by 1 per 6 hours after that) if he isn't concentrating on an important task - one that he doesn't find boring (if the character skipped one stay-awake roll because he was concentrating on a task, he then makes two rolls instead after 12 hours, at the accumulated penalty). If this EGO Roll is failed by just 1-2, the character lapses into momentary sleep (micro-sleep), but recovers from this quickly, as if having been Stunned. If it is failed by 3 or more, the character falls asleep, but wakes up immediately if he hurts himself (likely if sitting, standing, or moving) and must attempt the last EGO Roll again until he remains either awake, asleep, or unconscious.[/quote']

 

I would remove the penalty for time in favour of the penalty for loss of EGO. Another note on lost stats. Reduction to 0 should not have the usual incapacitating effects, but the stat should continue below zero for penalty purposes (ie you get down to -5 EGO, and your base EGO roll is 8-).

 

After a day without sleep, Joe Normal is down to 6 in each characteristic (average rolls). His rolls are 10-. After 2 days, he's down to -2 (rolls of 9). After 3 days, he's down to -10 (rolls of 7). Unless constantly stimulated, he'll be asleep. He's also down LTE, so he has 6 END left after 2 days, none after 3 days and he's down STUN as well. Seems a tad fast - maybe 8 hour intervals would be better.

 

The GM should allow for postponing the stay-awake Roll if he is traveling a brief distance when the time rolls up.

Alternately, the GM could randomize the time interval (for instance by rolling 1d6 hours until the next stay-awake Roll) instead of applying a strict 6-hour period.

 

1d6 averages 3.5 hours. If we went to 8 hour intervals, we could use 2d6+1 hours to average 8.

 

Modifiers to Stay-Awake Roll:

+1 to +3 Stimulants (such as caffeine, etc - these are mostly reduced in effect if repeatedly applied)

+1 to +3 State of physical readiness (continuous movement, physical activity, performing tasks, etc)

+1 to +3 Motivation (charged emotional states such as fear, excitement, etc)

-3 to +3 Psychology (applicable Complications may add or subtract 1 for Moderate Intensity, 2 for Strong, 3 for Total, at the GM's discretion)

 

I see no reason for stimulants to reduce in effect - accumulated penalties will suffice to make them less effective. Some of these should probably restore lost LTE/STUN as well. They could also come at a cost - when the situation ends/stimulant wears off, the character takes an extra penalty as if he had stayed awake another 8 hours.

 

Recovering for Sleep Deprivation:

Reducing these penalties by 1d3 per Characteristic requires 6 hours of sleep as a Base Period.

Taking a shorter nap requires an EGO or CON Roll, whichever is worse, at a penalty of -3 per step up the Time Chart.

 

This will take way too long, requiring sleep for the same period the target was awake. Perhaps a full night's sleep (6 - 8 hours) could restore 1d6, and every additional two hours after 8 hours restores another 1d6. After 24 hours of sleep ("you've been asleep for a whole day"), the character has recovered 1d6 for a full night's sleep, plus 8d6 for the 16 hour extra. That's an average of 30 points recovered, offsetting many days' lack of sleep. That seems reasonable, if cinematic.

 

Extended Sleep Depreivation:

In general, a character can get by with less sleep than necessary for extended periods, but may at the GM's discretion suffer the penalties above (except for Stay-Awake Rolls) after a month of sleeping for less than 6 hours per night, inflicted weekly. If sleeping for less than 1 hour per night, penalties begin after a week, inflicted daily, and so on.

 

Seems excessively detailed. I'd be inclined to just impose the penalty after the character has missed a total of 6 hours' sleep (one night), and again for every extra 6 hours missed. With the recovery rate above, occasional bad nights would not attract ongoing penalties.

 

What about life support? I would suggest the periods must be extended to match the period of sleep. If you require sleep weekly instead of daily, you take a penalty after no sleep for a week (not a day) and for every 2 days (not 6 or 8 hours) thereafter. 2 points LS is monthly, so a full month without sleep + every week thereafter.

 

 

NOTES: Need for sleep varies with age - kids and teenagers need 1-2 more hours of sleep, and around age 40-60, many people need 1-2 hours less. For months at a time, you can cut back on sleep every other week by 20-30 %, but this is unhealthy (as anyone who have worked shifts or nights can testify).

Characteristic penalties reductions would depend in some degree on personality and current focus, whether you become reduced in concentration on mental tasks (INT), reduced in patience and ability to make decisions or prioritize (EGO), reduced in ability to interact and communicate coherently (PRE), or have a reduced coordination and reaction speed (DEX).

[torchwolf]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

Sleep Deprivation v1.2 (yet another revision based on helpful comments)

 

Perhaps' date=' in keeping with the usual Hero approach, we might allow PC's and notable NPCs, being of hardier stock, to get by on as little as 6 hours per night. This seems like a reasonable starting point.[/quote']

Well expressed – I'm copying some of your wording. Reduced minimum sleep.

 

24 hours seems a reasonable starting point. Perhaps a bit shorter than cinematic' date=' but easily changed. If an individual character wants to go longer, 1 point LS could allow only 2 or 3 days without sleep, or reduce the penalties.[/quote']

Sleep deprivation period extended, more on LS below.

 

I don't like the idea that a fixed penalty can offset the entire DEX penalty. Besides' date=' characters in combat who have not been sleep deprived also have adrenaline pumping - why does that have more impact on someone fatigued?[/quote']

Adrenaline may to some degree offset fatigue toxins in the bloodstream, but I'll remove this as it is a needlessly detailed statement in the midst of an abstract rule.

Altered this to apply to the Initiative instead – which is what the Maneuver already does, but I can see it can be annoying for any player not to be able to counteract an Initiative penalty, so I'm keeping the note for now.

 

The normal rules for using STUN for END are transient. Losing 1d6 STUN every 6 hours is quickly recovered. I would suggest' date=' rather, that this is "long-term STUN", much like a Drain which does not recover until the character gets some rest.[/quote']

Altered to Long-Term STUN. I was thinking this but failed to write it out.

 

I would remove the penalty for time in favour of the penalty for loss of EGO. Another note on lost stats. Reduction to 0 should not have the usual incapacitating effects, but the stat should continue below zero for penalty purposes (ie you get down to -5 EGO, and your base EGO roll is 8-).

 

After a day without sleep, Joe Normal is down to 6 in each characteristic (average rolls). His rolls are 10-. After 2 days, he's down to -2 (rolls of 9). After 3 days, he's down to -10 (rolls of 7). Unless constantly stimulated, he'll be asleep. He's also down LTE, so he has 6 END left after 2 days, none after 3 days and he's down STUN as well. Seems a tad fast - maybe 8 hour intervals would be better.

Keeping this example if you don't mind (altered to correspond to 8 hour interval).

 

1d6 averages 3.5 hours. If we went to 8 hour intervals' date=' we could use 2d6+1 hours to average 8.[/quote']

Altered as noted.

 

This will take way too long' date=' requiring sleep for the same period the target was awake. Perhaps a full night's sleep (6 - 8 hours) could restore 1d6, and every additional two hours after 8 hours restores another 1d6. After 24 hours of sleep ("you've been asleep for a whole day"), the character has recovered 1d6 for a full night's sleep, plus 8d6 for the 16 hour extra. That's an average of 30 points recovered, offsetting many days' lack of sleep. That seems reasonable, if cinematic.[/quote']

I've changed the numbers around somewhat – reduced the penalties and extended the periods.

 

Seems excessively detailed. I'd be inclined to just impose the penalty after the character has missed a total of 6 hours' sleep (one night), and again for every extra 6 hours missed. With the recovery rate above, occasional bad nights would not attract ongoing penalties.

 

What about life support? I would suggest the periods must be extended to match the period of sleep. If you require sleep weekly instead of daily, you take a penalty after no sleep for a week (not a day) and for every 2 days (not 6 or 8 hours) thereafter. 2 points LS is monthly, so a full month without sleep + every week thereafter.

 

 

Sleep Deprivation v1.2 (modified from suggestions and examples by Hugh Neilson; further streamlined for ease of use)

 

As a general rule, most humans need 8 hours of sleep in every 24 hours. Since PCs and notable NPCs are made of hardier stock, they can be assumed to get by on as little as 5-6 hours of sleep.

In Heroic campaigns, a character might with GM approval buy 1 pt of Life Support (Diminished Sleep) to reduce this to 1-4 hours of sleep needed per 24 hours.

 

After being awake for 24 hours straight, a character begins to suffer from sleep deprivation - for each 8 hours beyond 24 hours spent awake, the character suffers the following penalties:

1) DEX, INT, EGO, and PRE are all reduced by 1d3 (the reduced Characteristic affects all Rolls, including Skills, based on that Characteristic. This also applies to Initiative as derived from DEX). Characteristic reduced in this particular manner can continue below zero for penalty purposes; this operates slightly differently from Adjustment Powers. At the GM's option, this can be rolled separately for each characteristic.

 

[Optional Rule: If entering combat, the character may use the optional Hurry Combat Maneuver to temporarily offset any Initiative penalties to DEX, lasting for that Phase (or for the duration of the combat after using it once, at the GM's option).]

 

 

2) The character loses 1d3 Long-Term END. Eventually, the character must use Long-Term STUN (per the normal rules for using STUN as END, but Recovered as Long-Term END), when he runs out of END. When he runs out of STUN, he falls unconscious (but does get to Recover Long-Term STUN and END while unconscious).

 

 

3) The character also makes an EGO Roll at +3 to stay awake, beginning after 24 hours. The reduced EGO Roll applies to this Roll as well (but the +3 modifier remains).

 

[Optional Rule: At the GM's discretion, if this EGO Roll is failed by just 1-2, the character might just have lapsed into a momentary sleep (micro-sleep), but will recover from this quickly, as if having been Stunned. If it is failed by 3 or more, the character falls asleep, but wakes up immediately if he hurts himself (likely if sitting, standing, or moving) and must attempt the last EGO Roll again until he remains either awake, asleep, or unconscious.]

 

The GM should allow for postponing the stay-awake Roll if the character is traveling a brief distance when the time rolls up, or if he is concentrating on an important task (if the character if allowed to postpone one stay-awake roll because he was concentrating on a task or traveling, he then makes two rolls instead after 16 hours, at the accumulated penalty).

Alternately, the GM could randomize the time interval (for instance by rolling 2d6+1 hours until the next stay-awake Roll) instead of applying a strict 6-hour period.

 

Modifiers to Stay-Awake Roll:

Psychology (applicable Complications may add or subtract 1 for Moderate Intensity, 2 for Strong, 3 for Total, at the GM's discretion)

Motivation (charged emotional states such as fear, excitement, etc): +1 to +3

Physical Alertness (continuous movement, physical activity, performing tasks, etc): +1 to +3

Stimulants (such as caffeine, etc): +1 to +3 (or more for some substances)

 

NOTE: Stimulants may also be used to postpone a stay-awake Roll, and even temporarily restore 1d3 to 1d6 of lost Long-Term END (or LT STUN instead, if the character is already out of END).

They could also come at a cost - when the situation ends/stimulant wears off, the character takes an extra penalty as if he had stayed awake another 8 hours.

 

 

Recovering for Sleep Deprivation:

Reducing these penalties by 1d6 per Characteristic requires 6-8 hours of sleep. Taking a shorter nap requires an EGO or CON Roll, whichever is worse, at a penalty of -3 per step up the Time Chart.

Each extra 2 hours of sleep above 8 hours restores another 1d6. After 24 hours of sleep ("you've been asleep for a whole day"), the character has recovered 1d6 for a full night's sleep, plus 8d6 for the 16 hour extra. That's an average of 31.5 points recovered, offsetting about 5 days' lack of sleep.

 

 

Example: After 48 hours without sleep, Joe Normal (initial Characteristics of 8) is down to 2 in DEX (including Initiative), INT, EGO, and PRE (average rolls after 3 periods of 8 hours after the first 24 hours without sleep). His rolls are 9-. After 3 days (an additional 3 periods of 8 hours), he's down to -3 (rolls of 8-). After 4 days, he's down to -9 (rolls of 7-), and after 5 days, his reduced Char are at -15 (rolls of 6-). Unless constantly stimulated, he'll likely fall asleep at this point (roll of 9- to stay awake).

He'll also lose LTE, so he has 14 END left after 48 hours without sleep; after 3 days, his has 8 END; after 4 days, 2 END; after 5 days he's at 0 END and down 7 STUN as well.

Joe Normal's limits of staying awake are reached after about 5 days, barring stimulants or extraordinary circumstance.

 

 

Life Support (Diminished Sleep) extends the period a character can remain awake, and also lengthens the intervals of penalties from sleep deprivation:

1 pt of LS (Diminished Sleep) suffers the sleep deprivation penalties each extra day awake after a full week without sleep, and 2 pts of LS (DS) only applies the penalties once per week awake after a month.

 

 

Extended Sleep Deprivation:

In general, a character can get by with less sleep than necessary for extended periods, but may at the GM's discretion suffer the penalties above after extended periods of brief or erratic sleep, if he considers it dramatically appropriate.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

Adrenaline may to some degree offset fatigue toxins in the bloodstream, but I'll remove this as it is a needlessly detailed statement in the midst of an abstract rule.

Altered this to apply to the Initiative instead – which is what the Maneuver already does, but I can see it can be annoying for any player not to be able to counteract an Initiative penalty, so I'm keeping the note for now.

 

It's a penalty like any other. Being penalized on your Ego roll to overcome a psychological limitation in a dramatically apropriate situation, your INT roll when you need to defuse that bomb or your DEX check when you need to make a crucial breakfall roll is no less annoying. You move slower. Tough. Next time, get some sleep before engaging in combat.

 

Sleep Deprivation v1.2 (modified from suggestions and examples by Hugh Neilson; further streamlined for ease of use)

 

As a general rule, most humans need 8 hours of sleep in every 24 hours. Since PCs and notable NPCs are made of hardier stock, they can be assumed to get by on as little as 5-6 hours of sleep.

In Heroic campaigns, a character might with GM approval buy 1 pt of Life Support (Diminished Sleep) to reduce this to 1-4 hours of sleep needed per 24 hours.

 

After being awake for 24 hours straight, a character begins to suffer from sleep deprivation - for each 8 hours beyond 24 hours spent awake, the character suffers the following penalties:

1) DEX, INT, EGO, and PRE are all reduced by 1d3 (the reduced Characteristic affects all Rolls, including Skills, based on that Characteristic. This also applies to Initiative as derived from DEX). Characteristic reduced in this particular manner can continue below zero for penalty purposes; this operates slightly differently from Adjustment Powers. At the GM's option, this can be rolled separately for each characteristic.

 

[Optional Rule: If entering combat, the character may use the optional Hurry Combat Maneuver to temporarily offset any Initiative penalties to DEX, lasting for that Phase (or for the duration of the combat after using it once, at the GM's option).]

 

 

2) The character loses 1d3 Long-Term END. Eventually, the character must use Long-Term STUN (per the normal rules for using STUN as END, but Recovered as Long-Term END), when he runs out of END. When he runs out of STUN, he falls unconscious (but does get to Recover Long-Term STUN and END while unconscious).

 

 

3) The character also makes an EGO Roll at +3 to stay awake, beginning after 24 hours. The reduced EGO Roll applies to this Roll as well (but the +3 modifier remains).

 

[Optional Rule: At the GM's discretion, if this EGO Roll is failed by just 1-2, the character might just have lapsed into a momentary sleep (micro-sleep), but will recover from this quickly, as if having been Stunned. If it is failed by 3 or more, the character falls asleep, but wakes up immediately if he hurts himself (likely if sitting, standing, or moving) and must attempt the last EGO Roll again until he remains either awake, asleep, or unconscious.]

 

Do we need a full +3? How often need he make the roll? If you make the roll once and it's good for the next 8 hours, the +3 seems excessive, but if you're making it every few minutes when at rest, the +3 seems much more reasonable as so many more rolls will be made.

 

The GM should allow for postponing the stay-awake Roll if the character is traveling a brief distance when the time rolls up, or if he is concentrating on an important task (if the character if allowed to postpone one stay-awake roll because he was concentrating on a task or traveling, he then makes two rolls instead after 16 hours, at the accumulated penalty).

Alternately, the GM could randomize the time interval (for instance by rolling 2d6+1 hours until the next stay-awake Roll) instead of applying a strict 6-hour period.

 

Missed changing that last one to 8 hours.

 

Overall, looks like a reasonable set of rules is starting to come together.

[torchwolf]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

It's a penalty like any other. Being penalized on your Ego roll to overcome a psychological limitation in a dramatically apropriate situation' date=' your INT roll when you need to defuse that bomb or your DEX check when you need to make a crucial breakfall roll is no less annoying. You move slower. Tough. Next time, get some sleep before engaging in combat.[/quote']

True true. Altered this to be a reference to if the optional Maneuver is in use.

 

 

Do we need a full +3? How often need he make the roll? If you make the roll once and it's good for the next 8 hours' date=' the +3 seems excessive, but if you're making it every few minutes when at rest, the +3 seems much more reasonable as so many more rolls will be made.[/quote']

Good point. I think it might be useful to handle situations where the character is engaged in something tedious by requiring a Stay-Awake Roll (now renaming it Alertness Roll). Added notes on this under Frequency of Alertness Rolls.

 

 

Missed changing that last one to 8 hours.

Oops, typo.

 

Overall' date=' looks like a reasonable set of rules is starting to come together.[/quote']

Nice.

After posting the v1.3, I'll look at writing this up alternately using the Drain mechanics, like Naanomi suggested.

 

 

 

New version:

 

 

Sleep Deprivation v1.3 (modified from suggestions and examples by Hugh Neilson; further streamlined for ease of use)

 

As a general rule, most humans need 8 hours of sleep in every 24 hours. Since PCs and notable NPCs are made of hardier stock, they can be assumed to get by on as little as 5-6 hours of sleep.

In Heroic campaigns, a character might with GM approval buy 1 pt of Life Support (Diminished Sleep) to reduce this to 1-4 hours of sleep needed per 24 hours.

 

After being awake for 24 hours straight, a character begins to suffer from sleep deprivation - for each 8 hours beyond 24 hours spent awake, the character suffers the following penalties:

1) DEX, INT, EGO, and PRE are all reduced by the BODY rolled on 1d6 [1=0; 2-5=1; 6=2](the reduced Characteristic affects all Rolls, including Skills, based on that Characteristic. This also applies to Initiative as derived from DEX). Characteristic reduced in this particular manner can continue below zero for penalty purposes; this operates slightly differently from Adjustment Powers. At the GM's option, this can be rolled separately for each characteristic.

 

 

[Note: If the optional Hurry Combat Maneuver is in use, this can temporarily offset any Initiative penalties to DEX, lasting for that Phase, with the normal additional penalties applied.]

 

 

 

2) The character loses 1d3 Long-Term END. Eventually, the character must use Long-Term STUN (per the normal rules for using STUN as END, but Recovered as Long-Term END), when he runs out of END. When he runs out of STUN, he falls unconscious (but does get to Recover Long-Term STUN and END while unconscious, as if sleeping).

 

 

 

3) The character also makes an Alertness Roll (EGO Roll at +3) to stay awake, beginning after 24 hours. The reduced EGO Roll applies to this Alertness Roll as well (but the +3 modifier remains).

 

 

Frequency of Alertness Rolls:

The GM should allow for postponing the Alertness Roll if the character is doing something that requires attention while an 8-hour period rolls up (traveling a brief distance while driving or under own powerful; concentrating on any important and/or dangerous task that requires some activity); if the character is allowed to postpone one Alertness roll because he was concentrating on a task or traveling, he then makes two rolls instead after 16 hours, at the accumulated penalty; the GM should probably not allow the character to postpone more than one Alertness Roll unless in extraordinary situations (repairing a nuclear reactor or other very dangerous situations).

On the other hand, if the character is resting or engaging in some activity that is either tedious or not requiring much activity (traveling as a passenger in a vehicle; researching a lot of files; reading something; watching a movie; engaging in a nightly stakeout alone; any uneventful and/or repetitive activity requiring little to no effort; etc) the GM might require an additional Alertness Roll in order to not fall asleep. Another character might attempt nudge the character into wakefulness, which might prompt a second Alertness Roll or a bonus to the first, at the GM's discretion.

 

 

[Optional Rule: The GM may randomize the time interval (for instance by rolling 2d6+1 hours until the next Alertness Roll) instead of applying a strict 8-hour period.]

 

Modifiers to Alertness Roll:

Psychology (applicable Complications may add or subtract 1 for Moderate Intensity, 2 for Strong, 3 for Total, at the GM's discretion)

Motivation (charged emotional states such as fear, excitement, etc): +1 to +3

Physical Alertness (continuous movement, physical activity, performing tasks, etc): +1 to +3

Stimulants (such as caffeine, etc): +1 to +3 (or more for some substances)

 

 

NOTE: Stimulants may also be used to postpone an Alertness Roll, and even temporarily restore 1d3 to 1d6 of lost Long-Term END (or LT STUN instead, if the character is already out of END).

They could also come at a cost - when the situation ends/stimulant wears off, the character takes an extra penalty as if he had stayed awake another 8 hours.

 

[Optional Rule: At the GM's discretion, if this EGO Roll is failed by just 1-2, the character might just have lapsed into a momentary sleep (micro-sleep), but will recover from this quickly, as if having been Stunned. If it is failed by 3 or more, the character falls asleep, but wakes up immediately if he hurts himself (likely if sitting, standing, or moving) and must attempt the last Alertness Roll again until he remains either awake, asleep, or unconscious.]

 

 

 

Recovering for Sleep Deprivation:

Reducing these penalties by 1d6 per Characteristic requires 6-8 hours of sleep. Taking a shorter nap requires an EGO or CON Roll, whichever is worse, at a penalty of -3 per step up the Time Chart.

Each extra 2 hours of sleep above 8 hours restores another 1d6. After 24 hours of sleep ("you've been asleep for a whole day"), the character has recovered 1d6 for a full night's sleep, plus 8d6 for the 16 hour extra. That's an average of 31.5 points recovered, offsetting about 10 days' lack of sleep.

 

 

 

 

Example: After 48 hours without sleep, Joe Normal (initial Characteristics of 8) is down to 5 in DEX (including Initiative), INT, EGO, and PRE (average rolls after 3 periods of 8 hours after the first 24 hours without sleep). His rolls are 10-. After 3 days (an additional 3 periods of 8 hours), he's down to 2 (rolls of 9-). After 5 days, he's down to -4 (rolls of 8-). Unless constantly stimulated, he'll likely fall asleep (roll of 11- to stay awake). He'll also lose LTE, so he has 17 END left after 2 days; after 7 days, he's at 0 END and down 2 STUN as well.

 

 

 

 

Life Support (Diminished Sleep) extends the period a character can remain awake, and also lengthens the intervals of penalties from sleep deprivation:

1 pt of LS (Diminished Sleep) suffers the sleep deprivation penalties each extra day awake after a full week without sleep, and 2 pts of LS (DS) only applies the penalties once per week awake after a month.

 

 

Extended Sleep Deprivation:

In general, a character can get by with less sleep than necessary for extended periods, but may at the GM's discretion suffer the penalties above after extended periods of brief or erratic sleep, if he considers it dramatically appropriate.

[Sidetrack]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

Interesting discussion, much of it I agree with. As someone that frequently does solo sailing passage I figure I'll throw in a few blurbs from some anecdotal experience with a 26 day ocean passage singlehanded.

 

In addition to EGO and the other stats mentioned, after 24 hours awake PER definitely suffered, keeping a good watch, keeping good sail trim all became progressively more difficult. Also in addition to EGO checks, I'd look a lot at CON, END and REC.

 

After 5 days of getting by with no sleep or a few 15 minute catnaps a day, I was able to get by just fine on 3hrs sleep a day. One solid 8 hr sleep at the end of the trip allowed a pretty much full recovery. Lack of a perceived threat made it psychologically harder to stay alert and awake. When near an island, reef or shipping lane it was much easier to stay awake than when in the middle of the Pacific.

 

The 3 hour a day sleep schedule kept me running at what I would guess was 90% effectiveness mentally and upwards of 95% physically.

 

Light had an amazing effect on my ability to stay awake. 6 hours of darkness and it would be time for my daily can of coke or tea to help keep me up, but regardless of my exhaustion sunrise got me going and cheerful, and daylight hours were pretty easy to endure. The hours of 2AM to sunrise were the hardest time to stay awake. I feel that more than an occasional caffeine lift would have left me more tired overall.

 

Adrenaline gave me quite a lift as well. I'd say that during occasional stressful or exciting bouts I was operating at near peak performance.

 

Worth noting that sailing was a constant minor level of physical exertion, with once or twice daily bursts of moderate physical exertion and very occasionally something more than that. Like the caffeine, I think that more exertion (or even an injury) would have left me needing more sleep daily or a lot more caloric intake. I'd say my caloric intake was low to moderate compared to normal.

 

Without a defined goal and daily progress, the lack of sleep would have much more devastating.

There were other affects more related to sensory deprivation/monotony that I wouldn't attribute directly to sleep deprivation.

[GamePhil]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

As far as I know, no normal human has ever died directly from lack of sleep. We probably do need sleep before we need food (that is, we can go without food longer than it takes the body to force most of us to sleep, but we won't die from it earlier). There is a thankfully exceedingly rare condition called fatal familial insomnia (WikiPedia actually matches what I have heard of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_familial_insomnia) that eventually results in a complete lack of sleep that lasts for three months, followed by dementia and eventual death. Whether the fatality is directly because of lack of sleep or because of something else, or even if the victim truly was completely without sleep (I haven't heard of any of these poor people wearing an EEG to check for the entire length of the disease, but it could have happened), I'm not entirely sure.

 

Bright light, especially natural light, does help people stay awake, as does social interaction, so being able to stay up throughout a convention is pretty typical (I can't do it any more, but still). So, you could get bonuses from such things. Also, the body trying to force you to sleep tends to come in waves: if you resist it for that period by whatever means, it will eventually go away for a while and try again (presumably, the body simply "concludes" that what you are doing is more important than sleep and gives up, such as in a survival situation).

 

Rebounding from sleep deprivation is remarkably easy, considering how much the body insists on us getting it: a good night's sleep and you're all set, usually. There are a number of ways that you won't get a good night's sleep, of course, but once those are fixed the tendency is to have sleep or REM rebound, prolonged periods of sleep or REM sleep, and be awake and fit in short order.

 

Which is not to say that any of this is a good idea, of course. It's better to stop for a nap if you can.

 

There are long term physical problems that have become associated with disturbed sleep over long periods of time (and those may be other effects of what's causing the disturbed sleep), but as that's not what's being discussed here, that's enough said about that.

 

See what you started by a little joke?

[dmjalund]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

I also hear that insufficient sleep - long term - can be implicated in exacerbating Psychological disorders such as Schizophrenia.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

Sleep Deprivation v1.3 (modified from suggestions and examples by Hugh Neilson; further streamlined for ease of use)

 

As a general rule, most humans need 8 hours of sleep in every 24 hours. Since PCs and notable NPCs are made of hardier stock, they can be assumed to get by on as little as 5-6 hours of sleep.

In Heroic campaigns, a character might with GM approval buy 1 pt of Life Support (Diminished Sleep) to reduce this to 1-4 hours of sleep needed per 24 hours.

 

After being awake for 24 hours straight, a character begins to suffer from sleep deprivation - for each 8 hours beyond 24 hours spent awake, the character suffers the following penalties:

1) DEX, INT, EGO, and PRE are all reduced by the BODY rolled on 1d6 [1=0; 2-5=1; 6=2](the reduced Characteristic affects all Rolls, including Skills, based on that Characteristic. This also applies to Initiative as derived from DEX). Characteristic reduced in this particular manner can continue below zero for penalty purposes; this operates slightly differently from Adjustment Powers. At the GM's option, this can be rolled separately for each characteristic.

 

That reduces the average from 2 to 1, slowing the progress of sleep deprivation. It will take 48 hours for most characters to face even a -1 to their rolls. We could get back to an average 2 point per period reduction by making the roll BOD on 2d6. Use of the BOD roll makes the progression less volatile (much more likely to be 1 per roll).

 

[Note: If the optional Hurry Combat Maneuver is in use' date= this can temporarily offset any Initiative penalties to DEX, lasting for that Phase, with the normal additional penalties applied.]

 

Maybe this could more clearly state this is simply the normal application of the Hurry maneuver.

 

2) The character loses 1d3 Long-Term END. Eventually' date=' the character must use Long-Term STUN (per the normal rules for using STUN as END, but Recovered as Long-Term END), when he runs out of END. When he runs out of STUN, he falls unconscious (but does get to Recover Long-Term STUN and END while unconscious, as if sleeping).[/quote']

 

I'd be inclined to say he is asleep - how does "asleep" differ, practically, from "unconscious"? Perhaps the question should be whether he wakes up as soon as he has recovered a single STUN, or sleeps for some longer period. Perhaps he should get an Alertness roll at positive LTS, and again at each recovery of LTS. Failure means he keeps sleeping.

 

3) The character also makes an Alertness Roll (EGO Roll at +3) to stay awake, beginning after 24 hours. The reduced EGO Roll applies to this Alertness Roll as well (but the +3 modifier remains).

 

Frequency of Alertness Rolls:

The GM should allow for postponing the Alertness Roll if the character is doing something that requires attention while an 8-hour period rolls up (traveling a brief distance while driving or under own powerful; concentrating on any important and/or dangerous task that requires some activity); if the character is allowed to postpone one Alertness roll because he was concentrating on a task or traveling, he then makes two rolls instead after 16 hours, at the accumulated penalty; the GM should probably not allow the character to postpone more than one Alertness Roll unless in extraordinary situations (repairing a nuclear reactor or other very dangerous situations).

On the other hand, if the character is resting or engaging in some activity that is either tedious or not requiring much activity (traveling as a passenger in a vehicle; researching a lot of files; reading something; watching a movie; engaging in a nightly stakeout alone; any uneventful and/or repetitive activity requiring little to no effort; etc) the GM might require an additional Alertness Roll in order to not fall asleep. Another character might attempt nudge the character into wakefulness, which might prompt a second Alertness Roll or a bonus to the first, at the GM's discretion.

 

I'd be more inclined to say that first Alertness roll is delayed until the task is completed, not avoided. Also, driving shouldn't be on the list - people nodding of while driving is a pretty common occurence.

 

[Optional Rule: The GM may randomize the time interval (for instance by rolling 2d6+1 hours until the next Alertness Roll) instead of applying a strict 8-hour period.]

 

Modifiers to Alertness Roll:

Psychology (applicable Complications may add or subtract 1 for Moderate Intensity, 2 for Strong, 3 for Total, at the GM's discretion)

Motivation (charged emotional states such as fear, excitement, etc): +1 to +3

Physical Alertness (continuous movement, physical activity, performing tasks, etc): +1 to +3

Stimulants (such as caffeine, etc): +1 to +3 (or more for some substances)

 

 

NOTE: Stimulants may also be used to postpone an Alertness Roll, and even temporarily restore 1d3 to 1d6 of lost Long-Term END (or LT STUN instead, if the character is already out of END).

They could also come at a cost - when the situation ends/stimulant wears off, the character takes an extra penalty as if he had stayed awake another 8 hours.

 

[Optional Rule: At the GM's discretion, if this EGO Roll is failed by just 1-2, the character might just have lapsed into a momentary sleep (micro-sleep), but will recover from this quickly, as if having been Stunned. If it is failed by 3 or more, the character falls asleep, but wakes up immediately if he hurts himself (likely if sitting, standing, or moving) and must attempt the last Alertness Roll again until he remains either awake, asleep, or unconscious.]

 

 

Recovering for Sleep Deprivation:

Reducing these penalties by 1d6 per Characteristic requires 6-8 hours of sleep. Taking a shorter nap requires an EGO or CON Roll, whichever is worse, at a penalty of -3 per step up the Time Chart.

 

I'm not sure the time chart works well here. 6-8 hours does not appear on the time chart (although it seems reasonably equivalent to 5 hours, especially if we simply drop it to 6 hours for the base). But at -3 to the roll, I'm likely much better of taking 6 naps of 1 hour than sleeping for 6 hours. If I have a CON of 18 (Pulp tough guy), and I've been awake 4 days (-10 to my stats), 18 hours' sleep will recover my losses. But, with a 13- roll, I can take 6naps of 1 hour with each having a 50% chance of recovering stats, so I should be fine after 6 hours. Dropping to 1 turn naps, I now need a 3 to get the benefits. I should get a 3 every 216 rolls, or about every 45 minutes. I need 3 successes, so in less than 3 hours of 12 second cat naps, I should be fine.

 

I don't think the time chart works here. Perhaps a roll for a 5 hour nap, with every further hour reduction imposing a -3 penalty (minimum 1 hour sleep for any benefits), and needing an Alertness roll to wake up before fully recovered would be a better approach.

 

Each extra 2 hours of sleep above 8 hours restores another 1d6. After 24 hours of sleep ("you've been asleep for a whole day")' date=' the character has recovered 1d6 for a full night's sleep, plus 8d6 for the 16 hour extra. That's an average of 31.5 points recovered, offsetting about 10 days' lack of sleep.[/quote']

 

I think we need t set the base time - is it 8 hours or 6 hours? If it's 6, then I should get 2d6 back for 8 hours' rest.

 

Example: After 48 hours without sleep' date=' Joe Normal (initial Characteristics of 8) is down to 5 in DEX (including Initiative), INT, EGO, and PRE (average rolls after 3 periods of 8 hours after the first 24 hours without sleep). His rolls are 10-. After 3 days (an additional 3 periods of 8 hours), he's down to 2 (rolls of 9-). After 5 days, he's down to -4 (rolls of 8-). Unless constantly stimulated, he'll likely fall asleep (roll of 11- to stay awake). He'll also lose LTE, so he has 17 END left after 2 days; after 7 days, he's at 0 END and down 2 STUN as well.[/quote']

 

Assuming average rolls, Joe should have lost 4 to each characteristic (1 roll at 24 hours and one every 8 hours thereafter). Joe Normal starts with 16 END, not 20. Every roll takes out an average of 2 (1d3 from above), so he's down to 8 END after 2 days, 2 after 3 days and taking STUN after 4 days (2d6 STUN so far from burning 4 END he didn't have). Another 3d6 STUN and his 16 total STUN is likely gone, leaving him asleep some time during day 5. Were you intending the END loss to also be reduced to BOD on 1d6 (average 1 END per 8 hour period, so Day 1 he's down to 12 END, and he runs out, on average, at the end of Day 5, probably runs out of STUN at 2 points (1/2d6) each 8 hours thereafter, so he can last another 3 days before being KO'd purely for lack of sleep? This seems very slow if it's expected to force a PC to sleep at some point in time, but it's also cinematic to have the guy able to last a couple of weeks or more. He won't be good for much anyway - try engaging in combat when you start with 0 END and can't recover any!

[GamePhil]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

I also hear that insufficient sleep - long term - can be implicated in exacerbating Psychological disorders such as Schizophrenia.

 

Oh, it can, generally making them worse, though, rather than causing them (the penalty to EGO with a pre-existing Complication may cover that adequately). Sleep deprivation for long enough can cause hallucinations and other short-term problems (cured by sleep), it seems, so some Mental Illusions or a Transform may be warranted.

[torchwolf]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

Interesting discussion, much of it I agree with. As someone that frequently does solo sailing passage I figure I'll throw in a few blurbs from some anecdotal experience with a 26 day ocean passage singlehanded.

 

In addition to EGO and the other stats mentioned, after 24 hours awake PER definitely suffered, keeping a good watch, keeping good sail trim all became progressively more difficult. Also in addition to EGO checks, I'd look a lot at CON, END and REC.

The proposed reductions were applied to DEX, INT, EGO, PRE, and END from ideas brought forth here and my personal reflections on repeatedly staying awake for 24-36 hours at a stretch, which happens to me sometimes. I'm looking at your suggestions here, other suggestions, and the data Karmakaze linked to up-thread.

INT reduction also results in a PER reduction, and the END loss is Long Term END, which takes REC into account. CON is an idea, since you get reduced resistance to infection from lack of sleep. I've thought about that and will keep it in mind.

 

After 5 days of getting by with no sleep or a few 15 minute catnaps a day, I was able to get by just fine on 3hrs sleep a day. One solid 8 hr sleep at the end of the trip allowed a pretty much full recovery. Lack of a perceived threat made it psychologically harder to stay alert and awake. When near an island, reef or shipping lane it was much easier to stay awake than when in the middle of the Pacific.

 

The 3 hour a day sleep schedule kept me running at what I would guess was 90% effectiveness mentally and upwards of 95% physically.

This is useful data, also for long-term effects which will probably follow after this mechanic is mangled into place.

 

Light had an amazing effect on my ability to stay awake. 6 hours of darkness and it would be time for my daily can of coke or tea to help keep me up' date=' but regardless of my exhaustion sunrise got me going and cheerful, and daylight hours were pretty easy to endure. The hours of 2AM to sunrise were the hardest time to stay awake. I feel that more than an occasional caffeine lift would have left me more tired overall.[/quote']

Graveyard shift is hardest for many people, especially if you have an "early" high performance activity period. Personally, I have a "late" period, or in other words, I'm not a morning person so I have my hardest time of staying awake at 6 AM or so (depending on how long I've been awake).

 

Adrenaline gave me quite a lift as well. I'd say that during occasional stressful or exciting bouts I was operating at near peak performance.

This factor is a hard one to include given that everyone has adrenaline pumping during combat, for instance, so this is a balancing act with modifiers and if/how to temporarily reduce sleep deprivation penalties, as compared to others not suffering from that. Further discussion will probably sort this out eventually. It is a good point.

 

Worth noting that sailing was a constant minor level of physical exertion' date=' with once or twice daily bursts of moderate physical exertion and very occasionally something more than that. Like the caffeine, I think that more exertion (or even an injury) would have left me needing more sleep daily or a lot more caloric intake. I'd say my caloric intake was low to moderate compared to normal.[/quote']

Also stated up-thread, doctors (and others) working long shift consume a lot of calories to keep alert. Eventually though, this has the same backlash effect as caffeine does. More details on various stimulants and their effectiveness vs sleep deprivation should be added at a later point.

 

Without a defined goal and daily progress, the lack of sleep would have much more devastating.

There were other affects more related to sensory deprivation/monotony that I wouldn't attribute directly to sleep deprivation.

You state a pretty detailed analysis here from your personal experience, which is very helpful. Do feel free to add more input, and have some rep for you effort in the meanwhile. Thank you.

[torchwolf]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

Bright light' date=' especially natural light, does help people stay awake, as does social interaction, so being able to stay up throughout a convention is pretty typical (I can't do it any more, but still). So, you could get bonuses from such things. Also, the body trying to force you to sleep tends to come in waves: if you resist it for that period by whatever means, it will eventually go away for a while and try again (presumably, the body simply "concludes" that what you are doing is more important than sleep and gives up, such as in a survival situation).[/quote']

Hence it seems useful to organize sleep deprivation effects into intervals. I'm not sure whether 6-hour intervals or 8-hour intervals are best, but longer intervals are probably easier to use in a game.

 

Rebounding from sleep deprivation is remarkably easy, considering how much the body insists on us getting it: a good night's sleep and you're all set, usually. There are a number of ways that you won't get a good night's sleep, of course, but once those are fixed the tendency is to have sleep or REM rebound, prolonged periods of sleep or REM sleep, and be awake and fit in short order.

 

Which is not to say that any of this is a good idea, of course. It's better to stop for a nap if you can.

This little fact also makes it more difficult to represent it in a game...

 

There are long term physical problems that have become associated with disturbed sleep over long periods of time (and those may be other effects of what's causing the disturbed sleep)' date=' but as that's not what's being discussed here, that's enough said about that.[/quote']

 

See what you started by a little joke?

Was it all a joke?

 

Thanks for the joke, JmOz.

[torchwolf]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

That reduces the average from 2 to 1' date=' slowing the progress of sleep deprivation. It will take 48 hours for most characters to face even a -1 to their rolls. We could get back to an average 2 point per period reduction by making the roll BOD on 2d6. Use of the BOD roll makes the progression less volatile (much more likely to be 1 per roll).[/quote']

This is a copy-paste error which I missed - it should have been 1d3, in keeping with the END penalty. That's what sleep deprivation does to my PER Roll.

I'll include this under "alternate suggestions" in v1.4, though.

 

Maybe this could more clearly state this is simply the normal application of the Hurry maneuver.

A true observation. It is after all just a statement of the obvious, so I'll relent and just remove it for now (possibly for inclusion under "comments" after the final version is reached).

 

I'd be inclined to say he is asleep - how does "asleep" differ' date=' practically, from "unconscious"? Perhaps the question should be whether he wakes up as soon as he has recovered a single STUN, or sleeps for some longer period. Perhaps he should get an Alertness roll at positive LTS, and again at each recovery of LTS. Failure means he keeps sleeping.[/quote']

I'll reformulate the statements to "fall asleep", expand it, and revise and reorganize Recovery details.

 

I'd be more inclined to say that first Alertness roll is delayed until the task is completed' date=' not avoided. Also, driving shouldn't be on the list - people nodding of while driving is a pretty common occurence.[/quote']

1) I'll reformulate the delayed Alertness roll - that was what I intended, but I phrased it ambiguously.

2) Asleep at the Wheel, apart from being a band, is unfortunately common. It does occur way more frequently when driving along straight roads at night, or on long stretches of repetitive terrain features. The Dutch rebuilt the roads in places and added decorations along the driveways on top of sea barriers for this reason. I'll remove it from the list for now since it would be too long to define "circumstances of driving", however.

 

I'm not sure the time chart works well here. 6-8 hours does not appear on the time chart (although it seems reasonably equivalent to 5 hours, especially if we simply drop it to 6 hours for the base). But at -3 to the roll, I'm likely much better of taking 6 naps of 1 hour than sleeping for 6 hours. If I have a CON of 18 (Pulp tough guy), and I've been awake 4 days (-10 to my stats), 18 hours' sleep will recover my losses. But, with a 13- roll, I can take 6naps of 1 hour with each having a 50% chance of recovering stats, so I should be fine after 6 hours. Dropping to 1 turn naps, I now need a 3 to get the benefits. I should get a 3 every 216 rolls, or about every 45 minutes. I need 3 successes, so in less than 3 hours of 12 second cat naps, I should be fine.

 

I don't think the time chart works here. Perhaps a roll for a 5 hour nap, with every further hour reduction imposing a -3 penalty (minimum 1 hour sleep for any benefits), and needing an Alertness roll to wake up before fully recovered would be a better approach.

I'd like to either use the Time Chart for familiarity, use 8-hour and 4-hour intervals for simplicity, or use 6-hour intervals throughout for consistency. Neither is necessary, though, and realism vs usefulness needs a point of contention so I'm open to revising the whole thing until everyone is reasonably happy. Well, mostly at least.

 

I think we need t set the base time - is it 8 hours or 6 hours? If it's 6' date=' then I should get 2d6 back for 8 hours' rest.[/quote']

I left it at 6-8 hours for the purpose of discussion. I'd like it to be 6 hours to conform with the Time Chart, but that may not be a strong enough reason. Cinematic reality argues for 6 hours, commonly established sleeping periods argue for 8 hours, but 6 hours is probably enough to avoid penalties so I'll use that for now.

 

Assuming average rolls' date=' Joe should have lost 4 to each characteristic (1 roll at 24 hours and one every 8 hours thereafter). Joe Normal starts with 16 END, not 20. Every roll takes out an average of 2 (1d3 from above), so he's down to 8 END after 2 days, 2 after 3 days and taking STUN after 4 days (2d6 STUN so far from burning 4 END he didn't have). Another 3d6 STUN and his 16 total STUN is likely gone, leaving him asleep some time during day 5. Were you intending the END loss to also be reduced to BOD on 1d6 (average 1 END per 8 hour period, so Day 1 he's down to 12 END, and he runs out, on average, at the end of Day 5, probably runs out of STUN at 2 points (1/2d6) each 8 hours thereafter, so he can last another 3 days before being KO'd purely for lack of sleep? This seems very slow if it's expected to force a PC to sleep at some point in time, but it's also cinematic to have the guy able to last a couple of weeks or more. He won't be good for much anyway - try engaging in combat when you start with 0 END and can't recover any![/quote']

Duh! I calculated this from the base 20 END, 20 STUN in 6E. Yes, probably Joe Normal should have 16/16 END/STUN in both 5E and 6E.

 

NOTE: I am assuming that this sleep deprivation mechanic should be usable with 4E, 5E or 6E without any difficulty.

 

These were all good points and I am reworking v1.4. Thank you.

[JmOz]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

I find this thread somewhat amazing, please no one take offence, but this was intended as a joke, that you guys have taken and made something valuable out of, I am glad to see my joke has had a positive if unintended outcome

[torchwolf]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

I find this thread somewhat amazing' date=' please no one take offence, but this was intended as a joke, that you guys have taken and made something valuable out of, I am glad to see my joke has had a positive if unintended outcome[/quote']

It's called synergy? Or maybe more things than are dreamt of in our philosophy started out as jokes.

 

 

New version:

 

 

Sleep Deprivation v1.4 (modified from suggestions and examples by Hugh Neilson; further streamlined for ease of use; comments from various posters to this thread)

 

 

Basic Rule:

As a general rule, most humans need 8 hours of sleep in every 24 hours. Since PCs and notable NPCs are made of hardier stock, they can be assumed to get by on as little as 6 hours of sleep.

In Heroic campaigns, a character might with GM approval buy 1 pt of Life Support (Diminished Sleep) to reduce this to 1-3 hours of sleep needed per 24 hours.

 

 

Staying awake and at full capacity is handled by Alertness Rolls (an EGO Roll), generally made every 8 hours after being awake for 24 hours.

Life Support (Diminished Sleep) extends the period a character can remain awake, and also lengthens the intervals of Alertness Rolls:

1 pt of LS (Diminished Sleep) need to make an Alertness Roll each extra day awake after a full week without sleep, and 2 pts of LS (DS) only necessitates an Alertness Roll once per week awake after a month.

 

 

Frequency of Alertness Rolls:

The GM should allow for delaying the Alertness Roll if the character is doing something that requires attention while an 8-hour period rolls up (traveling a brief distance while under own power; concentrating on any important and/or dangerous task that requires some activity); the GM should probably not allow the character to delay more than one Alertness Roll in a row unless in extraordinary situations (repairing a nuclear reactor or other very dangerous situations) or when otherwise dramatically appropriate (it is very unlikely to fall asleep during combat, for instance).

On the other hand, if the character is resting or engaging in some activity that is either tedious or not requiring much activity (traveling as a passenger in a vehicle; researching a lot of files; reading something; watching a movie; engaging in a nightly stakeout alone; driving a vehicle under monotonous circumstances; any uneventful and/or repetitive activity requiring little to no effort; etc) the GM might require an additional Alertness Roll. In case of sudden microsleep, another character might attempt to bring the character into wakefulness (in a more or less subtle manner), which might prompt an immediate Alertness Roll, at the GM's discretion.

In general, Alertness Rolls should apply at an average of 8-hour intervals if using this system.

 

 

Modifiers to Alertness Roll:

Psychology (applicable Complications may add or subtract 1 for Moderate Intensity, 2 for Strong, 3 for Total, at the GM's discretion)

Motivation (charged emotional states such as fear, excitement, etc): +1 to +3

Physical Alertness (continuous movement, physical activity, performing tasks, etc): +1 to +3

Stimulants (such as caffeine, etc): +1 to +3 (or more for some substances)

 

 

NOTE: Stimulants may also be used to postpone an Alertness Roll, and even temporarily restore 1d3 to 1d6 of lost Long-Term END (or LT STUN instead, if the character is already out of END).

They could also come at a cost - when the situation ends/stimulant wears off, the character takes an extra penalty as if he had stayed awake another 8 hours.

 

 

Optional Rule 1: At the GM's option, apply an initial modifier of +3 to the Alertness Roll (the character is obviously motivated to stay awake, otherwise he wouldn't try this) and apply a cumulative Time modifier of -1 per day spent awake. This would drastically reduce the time people may stay reasonably awake, but it might need to be invoked if the campaign features very high EGO Rolls.

 

Optional Rule 2: The GM may randomize the time interval (for instance by rolling 2d6+1 hours until the next Alertness Roll) instead of applying a strict 8-hour period.

 

[sleep Deprivation v1.4 Comments: Sleep Deprivation has been tentatively reorganized to be based off the Alertness Roll, as modified by above Modifiers instead of a constant +3 or other number]

 

After being awake for 24 hours straight, a character begins to suffer from sleep deprivation - for each 8 hours beyond 24 hours spent awake, the character must make an Alertness Roll (equal to current EGO Roll):

 

 

Expanded Rule:

If the character makes the Alertness Roll, he suffers no immediate consequences.

If the character fails the Alertness Roll by 4 or more, he falls into microsleep (a momentary sleep state) for 1 Phase and becomes unaware of his surroundings (with potentially dangerous results), but may repeat the Alertness Roll once per Phase until awake. Afterwards, the character suffers the two consequences below (NOTE: Generally, the character will be unaware of any episode of microsleep. Absolute Time Sense or other abilities may tip the character off that a time lapse has occurred, though, as will any obvious sudden changes of location or surroundings).

If the character fails the Alertness Roll by less than 4, it has the following two consequences:

1) Characteristic Reduction (see below), and 2) Long-Term END Loss (see below).

 

 

 

1) DEX, INT, EGO, and PRE are all reduced by 1d3. Characteristic reduced in this particular manner can continue below zero for penalty purposes; this operates slightly differently from (and is not cumulative with) Adjustment Powers. At the GM's option, the reduction can be rolled separately for each Characteristic.

NOTE: This reduction affects a “phantom value”; sleep deprivation for these purposes does not reduce any Characteristic; rather, it interferes with the character's ability to utilize those Characteristics. The reduction remains, and will eventually accumulate, until Recovering from Sleep Deprivation, partially or fully (see below).

 

Secondary effects:

Any reduced Characteristic value also affects all Rolls, including Skills, based on that Characteristic. Some important effects, in the case of reduced Characteristics (GM may apply extra Char Rolls vs minor effects from general lack of sleep – some are suggested below):

DEX also affects Initiative, DEX Rolls vs accidental involuntary movements from lack of sleep;

INT also affects PER Rolls, INT Rolls vs misunderstandings from lack of sleep, etc;

EGO also affects EGO Rolls – vs Alertness Rolls, vs Interrogation, vs the character's own psychologically based Complications/Disadvantages, vs PRE Attacks, vs Breakout Rolls against Mental Powers, vs generally increasing irritation from lack of sleep, etc;

PRE also affects PRE Attacks whether defending or attacking, PRE Rolls vs speaking incoherently or slurred from lack of sleep, etc.

 

[sleep Deprivation v1.4 Comments: Reductions occur only if Alertness Roll fails. While this makes it easier to remain awake until the first Alertness Roll is missed, consequences begin to accumulate after that point, which will likely occur for most people (unless especially motivated) within 48 hours or so. Possibly the interval should be reduced to 6 hours]

 

 

2) The character loses 1d3 Long-Term END. Eventually, the character must use Long-Term STUN (per the normal rules for using STUN as END, but Recovered as Long-Term END), when he runs out of END. When he runs out of STUN, he automatically falls asleep (but does get to Recover Long-Term STUN and END while asleep, as per Recovering from Sleep Deprivation, below).

 

[sleep Deprivation v1.4 Comments: This will likely put Joe Normal to sleep without recourse after a week, after the changes above]

 

 

Recovering for Sleep Deprivation:

Every 2 hours of sleep reduce these penalties by 1d6 per Characteristic. Taking a shorter nap has

lesser benefits; 1 hour of sleep reduces penalties by 1d3, and 20 minutes reduces penalties by 1 point.

 

[sleep Deprivation v1.4 Comments: Simplified structure for Recovering]

 

 

Example: After 48 hours without sleep, Joe Normal (initial Characteristics of 8) may be down to 6 in DEX (including Initiative), INT, EGO, and PRE (average rolls after 3 periods of 8 hours after the first 24 hours without sleep), assuming he missed a third or so of his Alertness rolls. His rolls are 10-, and END is at 14. After 4 days (an additional 6 periods of 8 hours), he's down to 2 (rolls of 9-) with an END of 10. After 5 days, he's likely down to -1 (rolls of 8-) and an END of 6. Unless constantly stimulated, he'll likely fall into microsleep constantly (roll of 11- to avoid this) at this point. Assuming he somehow stays awake, he will probably be at 0 END after 6-7 days and then at 0 STUN as well after 8-9 days, at which point he has absolutely no choice but sleep.

 

[sleep Deprivation v1.4 Comments: This is just a rough probability analysis of the effects of basing it on the Alertness Roll instead]

 

 

Extended Sleep Deprivation:

In general, a character can get by with less sleep than necessary for extended periods, but may at the GM's discretion suffer the penalties above after extended periods of brief or erratic sleep, if he considers it dramatically appropriate.

Other possible effects a GM might want to consider, both for short-term (while the effects would be less pronounced) as well as for extended sleep deprivation: Serious cognitive and behavioral changes, including moodiness, problems with concentration and short term memory, paranoia, and hallucinations.

 

After missing one night of sleep, expect fatigue, reduced attention span and problems with short-term memory.

After missing 2 to 3 nights, one will also suffer poor coordination, muscle twitches, marked loss of concentration, impaired judgment, blurred vision, nausea, and slurring of speech. Often one will experience episodes of microsleep (briefly sleeping for a few seconds at a time, without being aware of it).

At about 4 to 5 days without sleep, expect extreme irritability, hallucinations, and delusional episodes.

After about 6 to 8 missed nights, add slowed speech, tremors in limb extremities, memory lapse, confusion concerning one’s own identity, unusual behavior, and paranoia to the list.

After 9 to 11 nights without sleep, fragmented thinking occurs (beginning sentences without completing them), and prolonged episodes of unresponsive “conscious stupor.”

It is as yet unknown what would happen to a person after staying awake beyond the current record of 11 days.

 

[sleep Deprivation v1.4 Comments: Data above are based on Randy Gardner's experiences during the winter 1963-1964. Long-term effect might need more detail after the main mechanics are completed]

 

Thank you again everyone who have commented on this thread.

 

Oh, and I'm still holding off reconfiguring this as a Drain.

[torchwolf]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

treat it like an addiction (assuming people are trying to stay awake) have EGO rolls each time a person gets into a restful position to avoid falling asleep

I must give credit to dmjalund here, since this is how the Basic Rule of v1.4 ended up.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

It's called synergy? Or maybe more things than are dreamt of in our philosophy started out as jokes.

 

Hey, if there's no penalty for lack of sleep, why should anyone pay points to avoid the need to sleep? It's just SFX.

 

I like most of the structure here, so I've clipped it to focus on the negative

 

Recovering for Sleep Deprivation:

Every 2 hours of sleep reduce these penalties by 1d6 per Characteristic. Taking a shorter nap has

lesser benefits; 1 hour of sleep reduces penalties by 1d3, and 20 minutes reduces penalties by 1 point.

 

Sleeping for 1 hour at a time averages 4 points recovered, versus a 3.5 average for 2 hours' sleep. Maybe one hour should recover one point and lesser time recovers nothing.

[torchwolf]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

Hey' date=' if there's no penalty for lack of sleep, why should anyone pay points to avoid the need to sleep? It's just SFX.[/quote']

Very true. On the subject of free LS - next up might be something like this for starvation...?

 

I like most of the structure here' date=' so I've clipped it to focus on the negative [/quote']

How to improve stuff if not commenting on the negative?

 

Recovering for Sleep Deprivation:

Every 2 hours of sleep reduce these penalties by 1d6 per Characteristic. Taking a shorter nap has

lesser benefits; 1 hour of sleep reduces penalties by 1d3, and 20 minutes reduces penalties by 1 point.

Sleeping for 1 hour at a time averages 4 points recovered' date=' versus a 3.5 average for 2 hours' sleep. Maybe one hour should recover one point and lesser time recovers nothing.[/quote']

I thought about this a bit. How about 2 hours recovering 1d6, 1 hour recovering 1d6-2, and 20 minutes recovering 1d6-4, minimum of -1? (less than 20 minutes would recover 1d6-6, making it counterproductive in the extreme)

Waking up on your own willpower would require an EGO Roll at -1 per step down the Time Chart from 6 Hours; noisy alarms or similar arrangements providing a +1 to +3 modifier. The Lightsleep Talent would add a flat +3 to this roll.

This is just because I want a catnap to have at least a potential effect, but come to think of it, having too brief a period of sleep might also make you a bit more tired.

 

 

Additional Note for v1.5:

I should also add a few other modifiers to the Alertness Roll, based on input here:

Environment (featureless, bland terrain or nightly stillness might inflict -1 to -2 due to lack of stimulation; conversely, a multitude of visual stimuli - art, wildlife, etc. - or busy street life nearby might provide stimulation enough for a +1 or even +2): -2 to +2

Daylight (psychologically and to some degree physically, most humans get revitalized by sunlight; a dark cloudy day or rain less so than a brilliantly sunny day): +0 to +2

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

I thought about this a bit. How about 2 hours recovering 1d6, 1 hour recovering 1d6-2, and 20 minutes recovering 1d6-4, minimum of -1? (less than 20 minutes would recover 1d6-6, making it counterproductive in the extreme)

Waking up on your own willpower would require an EGO Roll at -1 per step down the Time Chart from 6 Hours; noisy alarms or similar arrangements providing a +1 to +3 modifier. The Lightsleep Talent would add a flat +3 to this roll.

This is just because I want a catnap to have at least a potential effect, but come to think of it, having too brief a period of sleep might also make you a bit more tired.

 

This would either leave the one hour average at 2 (so 4 vs 3.5 for a 2 hour period) if we have a minimum 1 point recovered, or 1.5 if we assume you can get -1 or 0, which is a reasonable result compared to a straight two hours for 1d6. 20 minutes will average 0 with a 50% change of losing something, making it a significant gamble. 1d6-3 would allow for a 0.5 average (with -2 a possibility), or the same 1.5 over the course of an hour. That seems workable, although 1 hour lacks any advantage now. Maybe 30 minutes for a catnap recovering 1d6-3 to ensure longer periods always average better results?

 

I like the idea of requiring the Alertness roll to wake back up. We should also have an Alertness roll modifier for someone trying to wake you - people who are tired enough sleep through efforts by others to wake them up.

[torchwolf]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

This would either leave the one hour average at 2 (so 4 vs 3.5 for a 2 hour period) if we have a minimum 1 point recovered' date=' or 1.5 if we assume you can get -1 or 0, which is a reasonable result compared to a straight two hours for 1d6. 20 minutes will average 0 with a 50% change of losing something, making it a significant gamble. 1d6-3 would allow for a 0.5 average (with -2 a possibility), or the same 1.5 over the course of an hour. That seems workable, although 1 hour lacks any advantage now. Maybe 30 minutes for a catnap recovering 1d6-3 to ensure longer periods always average better results?[/quote']

We run into the Small Die Roll vs Modifiers dilemma here. Perhaps it will actually work better to count the BODY of dice here?

Each 20 minutes of sleep counts as 1 Normal DC of Recovery; only the "BODY" rolled counts.

20 minutes: no effect.

40 minutes: 1/2d6 [0 on 1-3 rolled, 1 on 4-6](0-1).

60 minutes: 1d6 (0-2).

80 minutes: 1d6+1 [no extra effect since the +1 do no BODY](0-2).

100 minutes: 1 1/2d6 (0-3).

120 minutes: 2d6 (0-4).

and so on.

This would keep the 2 average for 2 hours, and make it easier to calculate the exact effects if circumstances cause odd periods of rest, and incidentally include a small (if artificial) effect from REM cycles and the like.

 

Hmm. This makes sleep feel a bit like an Entangle, actually. That would be an alternative method of waking up - breaking out of Sleep, the DEF being how tired you are. I'll leave that thought to rest for now though.

 

I like the idea of requiring the Alertness roll to wake back up. We should also have an Alertness roll modifier for someone trying to wake you - people who are tired enough sleep through efforts by others to wake them up.

Something like:

Noise: +(half of PER Modifiers from table)

Assistance (other characters attempting to wake the sleeping character might provide a bonus - see the Noise modifier; the contrasting noise level is what is important here, as shouting at an active construction site would have no meaningful effect): +1 to +3

 

 

EDIT: Using the Recovery method here, it also works well with a Wakefulness spell, stimulants built as Powers, etc.:

Healing (Only To Recover From Lack Of Sleep, -1). The BODY rolled would add to the Recovery, and the STUN would add to any STUN lost.

 

PS:Meditation could also be useful here - assume that a successful Meditation Roll effectively adds 20 minutes of sleep for the purpose of Recovery, and every point by which the roll is made adds another 20 effective minutes.

[Sidetrack]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

This factor is a hard one to include given that everyone has adrenaline pumping during combat' date=' for instance, so this is a balancing act with modifiers and if/how to temporarily reduce sleep deprivation penalties, as compared to others not suffering from that. Further discussion will probably sort this out eventually. It is a good point.[/quote']

 

I'd describe it as an easy 'push' to normal, but greatly increased difficulty to push further.

 

You state a pretty detailed analysis here from your personal experience' date=' which is very helpful. Do feel free to add more input, and have some rep for you effort in the meanwhile. Thank you. [/quote']

 

Like I said, it's just anecdotal but sometimes that makes a decent reference/comparison point... and hey, I got Rep!!! Thanks.

 

It's also always pretty interesting for me to hear Race Across America (RAAM) stories from a couple of friends. Ultra-endurance events like that would definitely be a good source of exertion/sleep deprivation data.