Omcv 1?

[incrdbil]

Re: OMCV 1?

 

You're quite correct; resetting the start numbers to 1 or 0 for every Characteristic would have been a lot more logical. The more we go around this' date=' the more it's becoming obvious that the way 6E reworked Characteristics is fundamentally flawed. [/quote']

 

Only is we assume the majority of HERO system characters created dont start as baseline humans..or humanoid. I'm sure if the change had been made, then we'd have the moaning about needless point total inflation 'just to be a normal'.

 

Oh well, its not a new edition unless there is complaining.

 

 

Start players with an OMCV of 3, or 0 if you like. Don't give a player points for selling it back unless you make it worth it. In other words, ...be a Gamemaster. Can we nitpick on the formatting of paragraphs, a missing comma, or some other issue as vital as the use of OMCV by those without offensive mental powers?

[Greywind]

Re: OMCV 1?

 

Can we nitpick on the formatting of paragraphs' date=' a missing comma, or some other issue as vital as the use of OMCV by those without offensive mental powers?[/quote']

We can nitpick anything. We're Hero players!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Omcv 1?

 

If the starting value of OMCV is a sticking point then I'd call that a major win for the System as a whole.

[the fox]

Re: Omcv 1?

 

With a black pen or marker, just carefully write MINT and MEGO over OMCV and DMCV,

as the new, decoupled stats, Mental Intelligence and Mental Ego.

 

Why? Because Mental Powers should 'hit' automatically, requiring only that you can 'perceive' your target. No longer would their be some 'magical evasion ability' that allows everyone to 'dodge' mental attacks; their effects can only be mitigated by mental defenses.

 

MINT would be used to target and 'evade' mental perception, LOS requiring only a regular perception roll.

MEGO would be used for mental defense, just like EGO but only for mental defense.

 

Rather than change the cost structure for Mental Powers, just require that a 15 or 20 pt. Adder be added to Mental Powers, 'hits automatically with perception roll'.

[the fox]

Re: Omcv 1?

 

where it's relevant, sure I'd 'allow' it, I'd just restrict it so it isn't "give me extra points, please".

One major restriction would be that one has to also sell back DMCV also, leaving the character with an 'actual' vulnerability.

Then I would not let the character buy Mental Defense, especially defined as 'too stupid to be effected by mental powers'.

[tesuji]

Re: Omcv 1?

 

If the starting value of OMCV is a sticking point then I'd call that a major win for the System as a whole.

 

i would echo this sentiment if the words "only" or "biggest" preceded "sticking point" but as is just being another sticking point doesn't say much positive on its own.

 

its a new "error" to some perhaps just a wrinkle to others and while any new rules are prone to have new errors, having them is not a good sign in any regard.

 

:-)

[Alibear]

Re: Omcv 1?

 

Why? Because Mental Powers should 'hit' automatically, requiring only that you can 'perceive' your target. No longer would their be some 'magical evasion ability' that allows everyone to 'dodge' mental attacks; their effects can only be mitigated by mental defenses.

 

Why is that then?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Omcv 1?

 

Why? Because Mental Powers should 'hit' automatically' date=' requiring only that you can 'perceive' your target. No longer would their be some 'magical evasion ability' that allows everyone to 'dodge' mental attacks; their effects can only be mitigated by mental defenses.[/quote']

 

Why is that then?

 

Because that's the way they work in real life, of course!

 

Seriously, this sounds like a house or campaign-specific rule of "this is how I envision mental powers working". We don't need an adder - use whatever AoE - Accurate has been morphed into to create an ability that hits pretty much automatically.

 

Requiring this approach for a specific setting would work fine. But there is no reason to impose this SFX as a default on the system.

 

I would have liked to have seen the price of all mental powers but Ego Attack doubled, with them becoming automatically Cumulative with no limit to the maximum. "All or nothing" would then become a -1 limitation. That, I could see as a change to the defaults (much like Transform began as an "all or nothing" and changed to a "cumulative by default" ability). But I can simulate this in a game where I want to simulate it by ruling any Cumulative mental power with a +1 Cumulative advantage has an unlimited maximum, rather than a maximum of 4x the maximum rolled on the dice. At 12 DC's, a maximum of 144 isn't that far off "unlimited" anyway.

 

I think mental powers are an area that could fill an Advanced Guide on its own with different options, simply because there are no real world equivalents to emulate. Consider, for example, eliminating Breakout Rolls in favour of an entangle-like structure where the attacker adds to the Cumulative total, and the Defender "attacks" the mental attack (perhaps every phase, perhaps using OMCV to target it, perhaps doing damage based on Ego) to gradually wear it back down. There are lots of different dynamics that could be created for mental attacks to create a different feel for mental attacks in various games and settings.

[tesuji]

Re: Omcv 1?

 

 

I would have liked to have seen the price of all mental powers but Ego Attack doubled, with them becoming automatically Cumulative with no limit to the maximum. "All or nothing" would then become a -1 limitation. That, I could see as a change to the defaults (much like Transform began as an "all or nothing" and changed to a "cumulative by default" ability). But I can simulate this in a game where I want to simulate it by ruling any Cumulative mental power with a +1 Cumulative advantage has an unlimited maximum, rather than a maximum of 4x the maximum rolled on the dice. At 12 DC's, a maximum of 144 isn't that far off "unlimited" anyway.

 

Kudos

I like this.

At 12dc you have 6d6 which makes the lesser effects within the reach of "one shot" but the stronger effects take multiple phases, which encourages "clever" attempts to work with their psych lims etc and less offensive commands vs the "brute force" obey any command kind of things. It also lets long lasting mind control be possible as the extremely high values make breakouts impossible until after a goodly number of time increments pass.

 

Clever. i may steal it.

 

Mandatory cumulative +1 on mentals except for ego attack - nice and simple.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Omcv 1?

 

its a new "error" to some perhaps just a wrinkle to others and while any new rules are prone to have new errors' date=' having them is not a good sign in any regard.[/quote']

 

There is nothing that someone somewhere won't perceive as a problem in some way. So "having them is not a good sign" is a non-starter statement. In fact, it's a useless pointless statement.

 

The point is, if we have to dig down into that level of detail to find issue the system is doing pretty good.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Omcv 1?

 

Kudos

I like this.

 

Clever. i may steal it.

 

You can't steal it since it's freely given - glad you like it.

[tesuji]

Re: Omcv 1?

 

The point is, if we have to dig down into that level of detail to find issue the system is doing pretty good.

 

Which is where the words like BIGGESt and/or ONLY were missing.

 

This is indeed a small problem, and if it were the only problem or the biggest problem then yes your comment was correct.

 

But thats not being purported here.

 

Or is it being purported by you?

 

The key is, the fact that small issues to be nitpicked exist doesn't mean there aren't bigger problems as well. Discussing this one doesn't mean we HAVE to go this small for problems. It merely means we are discussing this one.

 

Other bigger IMO YMMV problems in 6e to me include:

Multipower and 'changing slots" lims pricing

Buy little save big enabled in extra limbs and bases

Multiform cost structure

 

This isn't a knock at 6e. i think these things are wrong and fairly easily fixed, but in a book as large as the hero six rules, thats not a lot. certainly not a terribly broken ruleset.

 

But i cannot say that because OMCV sellback get a lot of discussion that means anything about the other. The MP one would play a significant role in my games if i didn't correct it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Omcv 1?

 

Whatever.

[JmOz]

Re: Omcv 1?

 

You know this whole issue would be eliminated in some part if:

 

We made mental equivalents of Dodge and Block (Espesialy)

 

So Mental Fortress is a chance to use your MOCV to prevent Mental damage...

[Greywind]

Re: Omcv 1?

 

You can't steal it since it's freely given - glad you like it.

The robbed that smiles, steals something from the thief.

[JohnOSpencer]

Re: Omcv 1?

 

You know this whole issue would be eliminated in some part if:

 

We made mental equivalents of Dodge and Block (Espesialy)

 

So Mental Fortress is a chance to use your MOCV to prevent Mental damage...

 

Something like Batman humming to himself in the Justice League episode with Doctor Destiny? I like that. This will require some pondering...

[Peregrine]

Re: Omcv 1?

 

Mental Block to thwart a mental attack is an old idea in gaming...

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Omcv 1?

 

Mental Block to thwart a mental attack is an old idea in gaming...

...but one that hasn't been explored much in Hero System as far as I can tell.

[tesuji]

Re: Omcv 1?

 

actually it has been explored in some of the mentalist books

 

as for this being a partial solution, that really depends.

 

assuming the normal has omcv dmcv 3 or omcv 1 and mental maneuvers exist, well which would you rather spend an action on:

 

attempting an omcv 3 roll vs the mentalist omcv to block and then have him try and hit your dmcv 3

 

or

 

mental dodge and make him roll vs dmcv 6?

 

if we assume omcv of 7

 

block needs something like a 15 to succeed which means a 95% ish chance of attack succeeding followed by a 90% or so chance of hitting... thems long odds on success against the block and miss.

 

on the other hand omcv 7 vs dmcv6 is about 25% chance of failure.

 

off the top of my head, i would take the dodge over the block and hope.

 

especially when that give me 6 more cp to play round with.

 

sure some players might fall for it, but not any imo savvy enough to do the math enough to figure out selling omcv back in the first place.

 

ymmv.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Omcv 1?

 

Mental Block to thwart a mental attack is an old idea in gaming...

 

I've always allowed it in general, actually, though in some games I require you to have an offensive Mental Power in order to execute the Block, or impose a penalty if you don't have one. Similar to physically Blocking a weapon with your bare hands.

[torchwolf]

Re: Omcv 1?

 

I've always allowed it in general' date=' actually, though in some games I require you to have an offensive Mental Power in order to execute the Block, or impose a penalty if you don't have one. Similar to physically Blocking a weapon with your bare hands.[/quote']

 

I had a weird thought (again). Is there any particular reason that two Mentalists (or a Mentalist and a non-Mentalist) couldn't use many normal Combat Maneuvers in a Mental Combat? I know there are specific Maneuvers for that in UM, but if assumed that the non-Mentalist would be at a disadvantage, he could suffer from not being able to defend himself physically at the same time?

 

Wild Idea:

 

Mental Combat Maneuvers usable by non-Mentalists: Mental Block or Mental Dodge.

 

If the non-Mentalist is attacked with a Mental Power, he is treated as if attacked in Mental HTH, and may make a Perception using a non-Targeting Sense (6E2 p7, using his sense of self awareness, if you will). In case the attacking Mentalist achieves the declared EGO+20 level of effect to make the attack unnoticed (see 6E1 p151), the non-Mentalist can do nothing.

 

Example: Mentat (OCV 4, OMCV 7) attacks Sneaker (OCV 6, DCV 7, OMCV 4, DMCV 4), a non-Mentalist, with a Mental Blast. Sneaker makes a non-Targeting Sense Perception Roll (he has no Mental Awareness) and realizes his mind is being invaded, so he is allowed to act to counter this. Sneaker aborts to a Mental Block. He fails his Perception Roll, and is at half OMCV and OMCV (unmodified by his Mental Block, this becomes OMCV 2 and DMCV 2). Sneaker rolls 13 and fails to fend off Mentat; Mentat strikes Sneakers mind easily, but miraculously, Sneaker isn't Stunned. Until his next Phase, Sneaker is at his normal DCV of 7 if someone attacks him physically.

Unfortunately, since Sneaker is still focused on the Mental Combat, he must make a Perception Roll if attacked physically (before his next Phase), or he will be treated as Surprised in Combat and automatically be at half DCV vs that attack.

 

Note: Yes, I know this contradicts 6E2 p75 slightly, but just for this special case - the non-Mentalist can use no attacks while using Mental Maneuvers anyway.

 

 

I know this is a bit out there.

[the fox]

Re: Omcv 1?

 

sense of self-awareness?

and why isn't this perception roll required before attempting a maneuver?

[torchwolf]

Re: Omcv 1?

 

sense of self-awareness?

and why isn't this perception roll required before attempting a maneuver?

 

My bad, thanks for pointing it out.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Omcv 1?

 

In case the attacking Mentalist achieves the EGO+20 level of effect to make the attack unnoticed, the non-Mentalist can do nothing.

Generally you don't roll damage until after a successful hit. The physical equivalent would be, "if you roll at least 20 STUN above the targets defense the target isn't allowed to Block or Dodge". It just doesn’t sit well with me.

[tesuji]

Re: Omcv 1?

 

Generally you don't roll damage until after a successful hit. The physical equivalent would be' date=' "if you roll at least 20 STUN above the targets defense the target isn't allowed to Block or Dodge". It just doesn’t sit well with me.[/quote']

 

How about we treat it like ipe

 

IF the attacker declares the effect roll to be seeking +20 level for unaware, then its an attack the target cannot see coming and so he cannot dodge or block.

 

Just like you could not block or dodge against an ipe attack you could not sense.

 

this requires the attacker to "go for" the +20 effect level. if he fails to reach that level, the attack fails anyway.