Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

[director13]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

I like what sounds like the kit askpect of Growth. I go back and forth how I feel about the PRE bonus the size templates give you now.

 

Still, if it lets us put "always on" back on the plate for growth powers, that certainly is an advantage*. And with direct edits to OCV / DCV back on the table in 6e, the costs will certainly be more fair.

 

(Granted, DCV penalties were optional in the 5e size packages, but it always felt like a no-brainer to me)

 

 

EDIT:

* or a -1/2 Disadvantage, or whatever we're calling it now.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Ah' date=' but [i']how?[/i] That's the question I've been asking since the idea was first brought up in the 6E forums. I hope it's addressed, if not in 6E2 then in the APG....

 

Draw Map. Set Scale. Grid Optional.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

One of the things I've never been happy with is that Growth has increased HTH reach exponentially, but Stretching has only increased it linearly. I wonder if that has been addressed, and how. I'm actually happier with the exponential model, because, well, the body is increasing in each dimension exponentially, so why shouldn't reach (certainly there's no physical reason; as for game balance...)? This might bring up issues because the reach from Growth and Stretching isn't subject to Range Modifiers. Well, I think it should be subject to Range Modifiers, and you could always augment it with PSLs for Range to make up for it.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Growth: In an attempt to resolve this problem' date=' I’ve rebuilt Growth so that it [i']does[/i] provide a character with all those things we think he “should” have. This makes Growth significantly more expensive than in previous editions, but you’re getting a lot more for your Character Points. And if you don’t want all that stuff, no worries! There are text boxes and Templates that show you exactly how I built things. So, if you want to re-build Growth to account for different character concepts or campaign parameters, you can do so without any difficulty.

Sounds good in principle. It seems like each additional "level" of growth should cost more than the previous, because it's giving you more. If your Running doubles when your size doubles, for example, then going from 4m to 8m should cost more than going from 2m to 4m.

 

Density Increase, Shrinking: - probably best to keep them pretty much as-is.

 

Shape Shift: - this is the one I'm most concerned about. I never liked the "Sense Group" aspect of this power, and preferred the way it was done in 4th. I hope the rules will be clearer as to what these "sense group shape changes" actually mean. I want to know definitively how it is intended to build Plasticman-type shape shifting. You can obviously see that he's in a different shape, even though his coloration hasn't changed. Is that a "Sight Group Shift" or not? You can obviously feel that he's in the shape of a chair instead of the shape of a man, even though his texture and surface temperature haven't changed. Is that a "Touch Group Shift" or not? Likewise his differently-shaped feet (or whatever is in contact with the ground) are going to make a different sound than ordinary footfalls. Is this a "Hearing Group Shift" or not? And while we're at it, a radar (or sonar) will also detect his change in shape. Is that a "Radar Group Shift" as well, or not?

 

Stretching: First, the cost of buying increased meters of Reach has been reduced significantly compared to earlier editions. 5 Character Points per 2m has always seemed pretty expensive for the utility it provides, so that cost has gone down.

Good. You're right, it always has been too expensive, but if it's going to be less, then I hope the momentum damage has been removed.

 

If a character wants to, he can now pay for the ability to alter one dimension of his body with a corresponding change to another dimension. For example, he could become twice as tall — but at the cost of becoming half as wide or thick. ... but it gives you a way to determine what openings a character can squeeze his malleable body through, how much he can hide behind his body, things like that.

Excellent! This is something I've house-ruled for years. I assume you can also decrease two dimensions while increasing the third. And I also assume that you could fit through really tiny openings if you bought enough (though at some point it would be cheaper to just buy Desolid).

 

Overall, with costs of Body-Affecting Powers going down and flexibility going up, I'd have to say it's a good thing. Body-manipulating type characters have always been rather expensive and inefficient to build. This will make them more viable.

[Steve]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Draw Map. Set Scale. Grid Optional.

 

Grid not optional when it comes to determining facing and turn modes. Or did those ideas get done away with in 6th?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Grid not optional when it comes to determining facing and turn modes. Or did those ideas get done away with in 6th?

 

Eh. Those things can be defined without a hex grid as well. An arrow for facing. For Turn Mode, you can only make a turn after at least so many meters, and no more than a 60-degree turn. Alternatively, imposing on the path a maximum curvature (or minimum radius of curvature; like the turning radius for a car) would be an equivalent restriction. Certainly a hex grid makes it easier, but you could do it with a compass and straight edge too, or a square grid, or whatever.

[The Main Man]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

That still leaves out a PRE boost and any AE benefit to STR.

 

And now that someone else mentioned it, the DCV penalties.So, let's also toss in 5/3 PRE, -2/3 DCV (if I may be so boldly mathematical about it all to boot), at 6 Levels AoE: 1m radius for physical attacks (x2 per +6 levels).I'd say that it all still balances out to ~10 pts/level.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

I'll clarify the question, not for people to clarify in this thread (which would be inappropriate, IMO), but so it can be addressed in either a future Showcase post or in the APG.

 

Suppose, for example, there are three characters with moves of 25m, 26m, and 27m. How do they move on the hex map if 1 hex = 2m? How is Turn Mode handled?

 

Or is the "official" hex map now using 1m hexes? (I wouldn't object to that; there's some sense to it.)

 

Back to topic, though, I'm with the camp that wants to find out just what specifically the new costs and effects are for Growth, DI, and Shrinking before deciding whether I like it or not.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Grid not optional when it comes to determining facing and turn modes. Or did those ideas get done away with in 6th?

 

Considering that the Facing Rules in 5th consist of a diagram with numbers around it - I don't see how they could get even more removed.

 

Turn Modes I doubt are going away, but seriously, how hard can it be to get a 60 degree turn?

 

Or what if you want to change to 45 degree turn modes so you can actually make a right turn.

 

One of my longest campaigns hasn't used a grid in decades (white boards) and we still manage to figure out Turn Modes well enough.

 

Grid Optional even now!!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

I'll clarify the question, not for people to clarify in this thread (which would be inappropriate, IMO), but so it can be addressed in either a future Showcase post or in the APG.

 

Suppose, for example, there are three characters with moves of 25m, 26m, and 27m. How do they move on the hex map if 1 hex = 2m? How is Turn Mode handled?

 

Or is the "official" hex map now using 1m hexes? (I wouldn't object to that; there's some sense to it.)

 

Back to topic, though, I'm with the camp that wants to find out just what specifically the new costs and effects are for Growth, DI, and Shrinking before deciding whether I like it or not.

 

Steve has repeatedly said Hexes are being removed.

 

Use 1m Squares.

 

Use 2m Hexes.

 

Use a Ruler, 1" = 1m.

 

Use Equilateral Triangles!!!

[The Main Man]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Steve has repeatedly said Hexes are being removed.

 

Use 1m Squares.

 

Use 2m Hexes.

 

Use a Ruler, 1" = 1m.

 

Use Equilateral Triangles!!!

 

Squares can even be used now, the nerve!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

It'll be awesome!

[The Main Man]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

This is madness!

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

I'm going to use interlocking Escher lizards.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

This is madness!

um..

No....

 

[The Main Man]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

um..

 

Rep :DCan't keep a good meme down, eh?

[Vondy]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Squares can even be used now' date=' the nerve![/quote']

 

I probably shouldn't admit this, but I haven't used figures or battle maps in over a decade.

[Alibear]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

2 decades for me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Growth - one thought - and I'm pretty sure this is how it used to be...

 

Someone who is big is easier to hit with a ranged attack - they are the proverbial broadside of the barn.

 

However, someone who is big is harder to hit in HtH - they are still an 'easy target' if standing still, but in practice probably very difficult to get close to if they are using their reach to full advantage.

[Markdoc]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Considering that the Facing Rules in 5th consist of a diagram with numbers around it - I don't see how they could get even more removed.

 

Turn Modes I doubt are going away, but seriously, how hard can it be to get a 60 degree turn?

 

Or what if you want to change to 45 degree turn modes so you can actually make a right turn.

 

One of my longest campaigns hasn't used a grid in decades (white boards) and we still manage to figure out Turn Modes well enough.

 

Grid Optional even now!!

 

Yep, pretty much: I run fairly tactical-heavy combats and the hex grid has been optional for 20+ years. I'm just not getting the problem here. Even when we have a hex map, I've always allowed people to move in straight lines, even if it crossed over hex corners: I just measure their move and say "You end in this hex". Same with turn modes. I agree a hex map makes things easier, if you are using miniatures, but the size of the hex is irrelevant - occasionally I define the hexes as metres, occasionally I have defined them as 5 metres, when we are operating at longer ranges.

 

Edit: and as for the changes, they look good to me.

 

cheers, Mark

[rjcurrie]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

2 decades for me.

 

I've occasionally used scaled maps over my 26 years of playing Hero but much more often, I haven't.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Maybe that is what he is doing - detecting and eliminating hexes. With a hammer.

 

I could probably accept that. But I was promised "no more hexes"

 

People can really take a facetious comment seriously, can't they? Any humour has been bled dry now (although I like Phil's interlocking lizards idea - maybe that could appear in APG?).

 

Hmm. This bit I foresee not being entirely happy with. If there's a smaller element to how the Power was "built"' date=' then why wasn't it simply broken up into its constituent pieces? Sounds like Growth is getting even [i']more[/i] complicated than it was.

 

Because one of the things that a lot of people complain about is that the Growth power doesn't really model very well the things that being larger should really give you. There are a lot of people that want a one stop shopping experience with Growth. You CAN buy all of the components separately' date=' but they want to just buy one power and get all of those effects in one. This is in theory an attempt to give them that.[/quote']

 

I think that's the big balancing act. Remove Growth and say "well, just buy each of these items, with those modifiers, and label your 13 line Compound Power as "Growth", and we will get people saying "Play Mutants and Masterminds - they have a Growth power."

 

I think this is the best approach. If you want to use the prefab build, do so. If you want to add or subtract abilities in your game, revise the prefab accordingly. If you want people to buy the individual components instead, have them buy the individual components instead.

 

Growth, DI and Shrinking all have this "power that combines several mechanics with a specific SFX" structure that's a bit of a departure from the "buy each ability individually" philosophy.

 

One of the things I've never been happy with is that Growth has increased HTH reach exponentially' date=' but Stretching has only increased it linearly. I wonder if that has been addressed, and how. I'm actually happier with the exponential model, because, well, the body is increasing in each dimension exponentially, so why shouldn't reach (certainly there's no physical reason; as for game balance...)? This might bring up issues because the reach from Growth and Stretching isn't subject to Range Modifiers. Well, I think it [i']should[/i] be subject to Range Modifiers, and you could always augment it with PSLs for Range to make up for it.

 

This is also part of the pricing problem for Growth - if running and stretching (which, perhaps, should be relabeled "extra reach") double with every increment, then the price for each successive increment should increase, as you're getting more.

 

Suppose, for example, there are three characters with moves of 25m, 26m, and 27m. How do they move on the hex map if 1 hex = 2m? How is Turn Mode handled?

 

Or is the "official" hex map now using 1m hexes? (I wouldn't object to that; there's some sense to it.)

 

I don't know how much clearer Steve could have made this. As I understand it, there is NO OFFICIAL MAP. You set the scale. You decide how it will be measured.

 

Let's say, in your example, you set 1 hex = 1 M. How do you differentiate between the half moves of the hypothetical characters you describe? Maybe what you need to do is use a table, or a mat, with no increments, decide that 1" on the map = 2 meters, and physically measure everything with a compass and a ruler. Turn mode? Get a protractor.

 

And, in 2012, we can all buy official Hero System Geometry Sets.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

This is also part of the pricing problem for Growth - if running and stretching (which' date=' perhaps, should be relabeled "extra reach") double with every increment, then the price for each successive increment should increase, as you're getting more.[/quote']Not necessarily. The logic could also be that there's a point of diminishing return in utility... that there's more advantage in having +4m of reach compared to +0m, than there is in having +8m of reach compared to +4m. And the larger the amount of whatever it is, the more the utility declines. For example, how often would you really encounter a situation where your +1,000,000m of reach was inadequate, and you needed +2,000,000m instead?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Not necessarily. The logic could also be that there's a point of diminishing return in utility... that there's more advantage in having +4m of reach compared to +0m' date=' than there is in having +8m of reach compared to +4m. And the larger the amount of whatever it is, the more the utility declines. For example, how often would you really encounter a situation where your +1,000,000m of reach was inadequate, and you needed +2,000,000m instead? [/quote']

 

I would oppose applying this logic only to Growth. Why should Stretching and Teleport not have similar breaks to reflect declining utility?

 

Should attack powers increase in cost per d6? a 1d6 Energy Blast isn't good for much in a game where defenses average 20 - 25.

 

Now we need to set the scale differently for every different game, of course.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

I would oppose applying this logic only to Growth. Why should Stretching and Teleport not have similar breaks to reflect declining utility?

 

Should attack powers increase in cost per d6? a 1d6 Energy Blast isn't good for much in a game where defenses average 20 - 25.

 

Now we need to set the scale differently for every different game, of course.

Slide-Rule HERO!