portable computers - too much?

[secretID]

Champions, present day. I'm wondering what people think about portable computers (wrist unit, built into armor, palm top for that matter). These are computers that aren't attached to a base, vehicle, or automoton, and are almost always on the PCs person.

 

There's one in the Champions book - a wristwatch model. But the first time I saw one in a PC, it seemed way too cheap to me. You buy a follower with a mess of talents and KS, and basically have free access to all that (b/c it's built into your helmet or whatever) at the 1/5 cost. I didn't think the player was trying to do anything abusive, but I said he should just buy all that stuff normally, but with an OIF.

 

Now I'm making something with that sfx for a PC of mine - a bunch of KS and some other stuff in a computer built into his armor. So, of course now I'm wondering whether I was a little hasty in my negative view of the cheap build.

 

What do you think? If the computer "follower" is on the PC at all times, like an OIF, should it just be bought with OIF and maybe other lims? Are there substantial disadvantages to having it as a follower that make the pricing more even than it seems?

 

E.g., with the OIF, you still have instantaneous access to all the info from the KS - you know it all. With the follower, the follower must communicate the info to you case-by-case - you read the screen, it talks to you, whatever. Is that kind of thing enough to make it fair? Keep in mind that I may have 20-25 pts. to spend if I want - that can buy a whole lot of computer follower.

[Trebuchet]

Re: portable computers - too much?

 

Define the wrist computer as being no more capable than a modern (real) desktop PC. It provides a basis everyone can understand, player and GM alike; and if there's any argument as to what it can or cannot do just demonstrate it on a real PC. If nothing else, limit the available Skill rolls to something modest like 11- or 12-.

 

For my money, instant access to Wikipedia or Google aren't a substitute for real expertise. That takes books, study, and probably actual experience.

[Vulcan]

Re: portable computers - too much?

 

That is an excellent point. Computers excell at storing information, not so much at using it. So restricting rolls to low levels on most skills makes perfect sense. The main exception would be SS: Mathematics, where a computer would have an excuse for a really high roll.

[jtelson]

Re: portable computers - too much?

 

I usually just build the wrist watch computer as Absolute Time Sense, Eidetic Memory and Lightning Calculator on an OIF. Occasionally throwing in some 5 point levels with Intellect Skills to represent quick reference, maybe Bump of Direction and other sundries to flavor to taste.

[Utech]

Re: portable computers - too much?

 

It seems silly not to allow PCs in the modern world the same access to computers (as well as cell phones, MP3 players, GPS navigators, etc.) as we enjoy today. You might want to limit the level of Knowledge Skills bought through a computer with things like Extra Time to indicate that the character needs to both locate and digest the information stored in the computer before he's able to make use of it.

[secretID]

Re: portable computers - too much?

 

It seems silly not to allow PCs in the modern world the same access to computers (as well as cell phones' date=' MP3 players, GPS navigators, etc.) as we enjoy today. You might want to limit the level of Knowledge Skills bought through a computer with things like Extra Time to indicate that the character needs to both locate and digest the information stored in the computer before he's able to make use of it.[/quote']

The GM had already said the PC could have an iPhone, but I was looking for something a little more OIF and user friendly. Specifically, it's housed in a small box on the PC's person, the PC gives it oral commands, and receives back audio through earpieces and video and text through circuited contact lenses.

 

I ended up going with a follower. I didn't limit KS at all. I used a rule of reason on the non-knowledge skills, allowing Cryptography and even Electronics, but not Science Skills. I limited them by limiting programs - there are programs to "supervise" paramedical intervention, electronics repair/modification, and mechanics repair/modification.

 

In my mind, the computer will be largely useless when there's any time pressure, because it's very clumsy to guide someone through a complicated paramedical, eletronics, etc., task. The PC certainly can't rely on it, say, to work on an electronic device in combat.

 

Basically, I think of it as having ready access to manuals and a help line. For non-KS, that's much more limited than the actual skill. For KS, it's probably about the same, since the computer has a research program.

[Toadmaster]

Re: portable computers - too much?

 

The GM had already said the PC could have an iPhone, but I was looking for something a little more OIF and user friendly. Specifically, it's housed in a small box on the PC's person, the PC gives it oral commands, and receives back audio through earpieces and video and text through circuited contact lenses.

 

I ended up going with a follower. I didn't limit KS at all. I used a rule of reason on the non-knowledge skills, allowing Cryptography and even Electronics, but not Science Skills. I limited them by limiting programs - there are programs to "supervise" paramedical intervention, electronics repair/modification, and mechanics repair/modification.

 

In my mind, the computer will be largely useless when there's any time pressure, because it's very clumsy to guide someone through a complicated paramedical, eletronics, etc., task. The PC certainly can't rely on it, say, to work on an electronic device in combat.

 

Basically, I think of it as having ready access to manuals and a help line. For non-KS, that's much more limited than the actual skill. For KS, it's probably about the same, since the computer has a research program.

 

 

Also keep in mind many physical skills require muscle memory, that is why you practice. If the computer is a live feed into the brain providing the skill that is one thing, but if it is just a source of info, I'd limit it to fairly basic stuff. You can't just read a book then start an IV on a patient, it takes some actual skill to do, same with many mechanical skills, its not just unscrew bolt A, tighten screw B frequently there is a bit of the engine sounds right now, so that is good.

 

For skills primarily focused on information it would potentially be easier to justify a higher than base skill. I would think it would best represent skill bonuses though. The PC is trying to impress the sauve super baddie with his knowledge of fast cars, the computer provides him with the info that the SSC Aero TT is the worlds fastest street legal car with a top speed of 256 mph, a full 16 mph faster than the super baddies McLaren F1 providing a +2 to his High Society roll.

[secretID]

Re: portable computers - too much?

 

Also keep in mind many physical skills require muscle memory' date=' that is why you practice. If the computer is a live feed into the brain providing the skill that is one thing, but if it is just a source of info, I'd limit it to fairly basic stuff. You can't just read a book then start an IV on a patient, it takes some actual skill to do, same with many mechanical skills, its not just unscrew bolt A, tighten screw B frequently there is a bit of the engine sounds right now, so that is good.[/quote']

Good point. My thinking is that diagnostically the computer will be strong ("He's dehydrated," "The contacts are corroded"), but fixing and modifying will be much tougher. The IV example is a great one.

[ghost-angel]

Re: portable computers - too much?

 

That is an excellent point. Computers excell at storing information' date=' not so much at [i']using[/i] it. So restricting rolls to low levels on most skills makes perfect sense. The main exception would be SS: Mathematics, where a computer would have an excuse for a really high roll.

 

On the other hand, things like KS represent What and How Much information is known/readily accessible and an extremely high KS could be appropriate.

 

Load up the Oxford English Dictionary and you have KS: English Language at around 50-.

[Markdoc]

Re: portable computers - too much?

 

Pretty much what everyone else had said. I've played a character who had an AI sidekick ("Charlie" - the brain in tank!) with encyclopedic KS's and in practical terms it didn't hurt the game, for exactly the reasons stated. Charlie had things like "KS: local Number plates and registration, 15-" so I could say things like "Charlie, who's the registered owner of IC36661, a Green Mercedes?" and get an answer. On the other hand, if I had to disarm a bomb, I didn't have that skill. The most Charlie could do was offer advice, giving - at best - a complementary.

 

Truly, his access to the satellite network - as in: "Charlie, I need you to bring the orbital laser on-line" was more fun

 

cheers, Mark

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: portable computers - too much?

 

 

Load up the Oxford English Dictionary and you have KS: English Language at around 50-.

 

Or, KS: Definitions and Origins of English Words 50-

 

You'd need a few other books to go with the dictionary to understand English that thoroughly.

[ghost-angel]

Re: portable computers - too much?

 

Actually, it's impossible to Understand the English...

[Vondy]

Re: portable computers - too much?

 

If the computer is limited to what joe-citizen's palm/laptop/desktop can do I'd give it to them as a freebie. Its everyman gear. That its tiny is a plus, but not one that merits charging lots of points for it. If you want to charge for its convenient size I'd call it an el-cheapo perk: Microcomputer. If, however, it can do more than joe-citizen's computer, it should cost points.

[ghost-angel]

Re: portable computers - too much?

 

One thing I keep coming back to is the idea of a Normal Equipment Pool for Superheroic Games.

 

You get a free pool to dump "stuff" into that can be found off the shelf. I just don't know the best way to implement it, if you model it after Equipment Pools from Dark Champions (where I got the idea) you're still stuck building all this normal equipment.

 

Maybe just assign Normal Stuff a value, from 1/2 a point to 5 points.

Normal Income can get anything worth 2 points or less.

1-5 Points in Wealth let's you get anything worth 3 points or less

6-10 in Wealth is 4 or less

11-15 Wealth is 5 or less (essentially any off the shelf item you can buy in 'the real world')

 

you can access a single item worth 1 point more than you have access to, but it takes up twice as many points in your pool to reflect the effect on your relative wealth.

 

Every can access up to 15-20 points worth of stuff. This includes carried (cell phones, laptops) and otherwise (apartments, houses, cars, luxury yachts).

 

Adds some book keeping, but gives a gauge to just what does this guy have? And naturally lets us kill the argument about carrying around flash lights, cell phones and other paraphenalia.

[director13]

Re: portable computers - too much?

 

I built computers normally using the normal equipment rules, then setup followers based on those point totals, but that was more of a Dark Champions vibe I was going for.

[Jhamin]

Re: portable computers - too much?

 

Personally, I think people are over-estimating what skills a real computer would give.

 

If you have a GPS Smartphone, then navigation *is* indeed easier. And if you had a wireless link to the internet you could look up just about any fact that isn't classified.

 

But I for one would *NEVER* trust my life to a helicopter pilot who looked up "Flying Helicopters" on Wikipedia or let someone with a copy of the Drug interaction guide in PDF give me perscription drugs.

 

An electronic copy of a Mandarin dictionary might let me look up words one by one but I would have no idea what the grammer or sentance structure would be. Real world English/whatever translators do work, but are slow and do not convey deep meanings. The good ones are also unusual enough to count as something you have to buy with points.

[OddHat]

Re: portable computers - too much?

 

You can have any computer you want, but the operating system is out-of-the-box Vista.

[ghost-angel]

Re: portable computers - too much?

 

You can have any computer you want' date=' but the operating system is out-of-the-box Vista.[/quote']

 

So..... you take a 25 Point Disadvantage?

 

Physical Limitation: Windows Vista Runs My Computer (All The Time, Greatly Impairing)

 

 

[secretID]

Re: portable computers - too much?

 

Personally' date=' I think people are over-estimating what skills a real computer would give.[/quote']

? - It seems to me that most people see it pretty much as you do.

 

Personally, part of my question was that I wanted something better than a real computer. In the end, I went for something slightly better - it has no SS, but it can do, e.g., Cryptography, which I assume real computers can only do on a limited basis, with specific programming.

[OddHat]

Re: portable computers - too much?

 

For a more serious response, there are balance issues when allowing a character to buy any of the 1 for 5 discounted perks (Vehicles, Bases, Followers), more so when 5 point doublings come into play. As the GM, you do need to think about what you're willing to allow. Still, many concepts really do need those toys (many classic Silver Age homage characters for a start).

 

I usually tell players that I consider skills purchased through followers at the 1 for 5 rate to be more under my control than the players. As GM, I might decide that the Follower's discount KS or SS just plain doesn't cover this, or that the Wrist Computer was wrecked in that last explosion, or just that the batteries are low. I won't do this all the time, but I will bring it up now and then, especially if someone else in the group purchased their skills directly. I see that as the price the player pays for the massive discount he's getting. If that doesn't appeal to the player, he's welcome to use another build. It hasn't been a problem in the time I've been GMing 5th.