quozaxx Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Wolverine's claws and Black Knight's sword. Just two of the comic book items that can "cut through anything". How would you build that? Even a 4d6K AP, Piercing wouldn't cut through anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything Wolverine's claws and Black Knight's sword. Just two of the comic book items that can "cut through anything". How would you build that? Even a 4d6K AP, Piercing wouldn't cut through anything. No Normal Defense, Does BOD. Defense is Force Fields. Lucius Alexander Defense is a palindromedary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. MID-Nite Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything Double Penetrating would do it...as then you'd do a minimum amount of Body each attack...and that'd deal with hardened defenses as well... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything It's either Campaign Absolute Maximum in place, or Writer's Fiat. NND, Does Body is a pretty good substitute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything re: Heroic I'd recommend the NND & Does Body route. re: superheroic After working up stats for both Captain America's shield, Wolverine's claws and a Lightsaber I think an equivalent expenditure of points on some combination of Penetrating & Armor Piercing (like x3 Pen and x1 AP) accomplishes about the same thing and takes the special effect argument that is inherent to NND off the table. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Certified Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything One that was posted here a while ago and I've used is an AVLD versus Power Defense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything I'd do NND, does Body, with defenses like Force Field or magical defenses. Really, though, both weapons should be limited by how much strength the user can put behind them and neither should be able to 'cut through anything'; I take that as hyperbole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utech Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything NND does Body linked to NND does Body. Define a different defense for each NND. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything NND does Body linked to NND does Body. Define a different defense for each NND. Illegal, plus again, there are things that those weapons can't cut through (magical fields, for example). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Certified Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything I don't know I'm sticking with the AVLD since NNDs are all or nothing: Hattori Hanzo: I am finished doing what I swore an oath to God twenty eight years ago to never do again. I've created, "something that kills people." And in that purpose, I was a success. I've done this because, philosophically, I am sympathetic to your aim. I can tell you with no ego, this is my finest sword. If on your journey, you should encounter God, God will be cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything Illegal' date=' plus again, there are things that those weapons can't cut through (magical fields, for example).[/quote'] I don't know that it's illegal, but good luck getting it into a game unless the person running it is either inexperienced or, shall we say, less than alert. Or possibly well bribed. And of course, you have a point in that such things always seem to have some kind of exception... "I thought you said this sword could cut through Anything!" "I did. This isn't just Anything, this stuff is Something Else." Lucius Alexander No Normal Palindromedary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything I don't know that it's illegal, but good luck getting it into a game unless the person running it is either inexperienced or, shall we say, less than alert. Or possibly well bribed. And of course, you have a point in that such things always seem to have some kind of exception... "I thought you said this sword could cut through Anything!" "I did. This isn't just Anything, this stuff is Something Else." Lucius Alexander No Normal Palindromedary Indeed. I still think that a straight HKA, perhaps with Penetrating or AP covers it; despite what Claremont seems to think, material strength is not the sole determinant of what can cut through what. Hand the Ebony Blade to, say, a 90 year old, and they won't be cutting through cold butter with the thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbdaury Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything Well, the strength used argument does come into play with NND/Does body, as the hka will only get +1 KDC per 15 strength used anyways, so even if you give Wolvie 30 strength, that's +1/2d6 to KA, so it might do some damage but not necessarily enough to destroy/seriously injure the target, depending on how "robust" the hka was to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utech Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything Illegal' date=' plus again, there are things that those weapons can't cut through (magical fields, for example).[/quote'] Could you let me know the rule that makes this illegal? The OP was not asking about making things that can cut through almost anything. The OP was asking about making things that can cut through anything. That's what I was trying to help with. Whether or not a GM would allow such an attack is another question entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything Wolverine's claws and Black Knight's sword. Just two of the comic book items that can "cut through anything". How would you build that? Even a 4d6K AP, Piercing wouldn't cut through anything. Sure, but that kind of attack is actually the best way to simulate something like the "cuts through anything" attacks - because in the comics, they don't. Wolvie's "cut through anything" claws can't cut Juggernaut's or Sym's skin, for example. Wolvie hits Sym full on in the stomach at close range and then goes "Hell, didn't even scratch him!" Basically they're really cutty, but there still are plenty of things they can't cut. The best way to simulate that is with a big HKA, with a reduced stun multiplier. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtelson Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything Could you let me know the rule that makes this illegal? Characters ordinarily shouldn’t have more than one type of NND attack; this gives them too much flexibility in combat. 5th Rev pg 265 Goes on to suggest situations where ignoring it might be allowed but 'cause I want to cut through anything' didn't make the exceptions list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything The OP was not asking about making things that can cut through almost anything. The OP was asking about making things that can cut through anything. That's what I was trying to help with. Whether or not a GM would allow such an attack is another question entirely. Well no GM in his right mind would allow it, but an HKA with a linked HA, NND does BOD, defence: only non-resistant defences, should do it. If they have resistant defences you splat them with the HA. If they don't have resistant defences, you cut them with the HKA. Cheesy as heck, but borderline legal. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtelson Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything The OP was not asking about making things that can cut through almost anything. The OP was asking about making things that can cut through anything. That's what I was trying to help with. The examples given in the original post, however, are of things that are said to be able to cut through anything but really can only cut through most things which kinda brings us back to a simple HKA with AP and Penetrating and/or NND Does Body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything x2 Armor Piercing x2 Penetrating or x1 No Normal Defense or x1 Applied Verses Limited Defense Cheers QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utech Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything Characters ordinarily shouldn’t have more than one type of NND attack; this gives them too much flexibility in combat. 5th Rev pg 265. Thanks for the page citation. That's not a very strong rule, of course. It wouldn't be hard to say that Linked NND does Body attacks do not provide more flexibility in combat. Especially if both attacks take a Limitation such as: Does No Damage If Linked Power Does Damage. All this assumes that your GM is interested in allowing a character to have claws or a sword or what-have-you that can cut through anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything As an aside, in my fantasy games, I have a had a couple of a magic swords that will "cut iron as easily as flesh". That's not "cut through anything" but the way I created thouse was to buy 3 extra dice of HKA and whack "standard limitation" and "Only to cancel defence: -1" on it. That basically means if you have a shortsword that "will cut iron as easily as flesh" then it's a 1d6 HKA (to which your STR adds normally) plus 3d6 HKA, which neither does Stun nor (directly) BOD, but which simply cancels out DEF - so the sword ignores up to 9 rDEF, allowing it to cut someone wearing plate armour as easily as if he was wearing a loincloth. Also the user could, given some time, hack a hole in a castle wall, cut through almost any chain, etc. However, it can never do more damage than a regular shortsword - it is after all, still just a really, really sharp sword. This is a way of getting a really cutty weapon that doesn't dominate combat with huge stun multiples, but which is still very dangerous, even to heavily armoured foes. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtelson Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything As an aside, in my fantasy games, I have a had a couple of a magic swords that will "cut iron as easily as flesh". That's not "cut through anything" but the way I created thouse was to buy 3 extra dice of HKA and whack "standard limitation" and "Only to cancel defence: -1" on it. That basically means if you have a shortsword that "will cut iron as easily as flesh" then it's a 1d6 HKA (to which your STR adds normally) plus 3d6 HKA, which neither does Stun nor (directly) BOD, but which simply cancels out DEF - so the sword ignores up to 9 rDEF, allowing it to cut someone wearing plate armour as easily as if he was wearing a loincloth. Also the user could, given some time, hack a hole in a castle wall, cut through almost any chain, etc. However, it can never do more damage than a regular shortsword - it is after all, still just a really, really sharp sword. This is a way of getting a really cutty weapon that doesn't dominate combat with huge stun multiples, but which is still very dangerous, even to heavily armoured foes. cheers, Mark Interestingly, Single or Limited Author Narratives, like Fantasy novels, are where you generally find examples of stable absolutes like 'cuts through anything", once you enter the land of Open Author Narratives, like most comic books, those absolutes tend to wax and wane with the preferances and or Narrative needs of this itteration's Author. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything Could you let me know the rule that makes this illegal? Last I checked (I could be an Edition back), you were only allowed to have one designated Defense for all your NNDs, to avoid, well, cheese like 'NND: Defense is being in the air' and 'NND: Defense is being on the ground' or 'NND: Having a force field' and 'NND: Not having a force field'. HERO doesn't do absolutes well. He'll have to accept 'nearly anything'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hfergus Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything How about somthing different than HKAs? Try transform "x" into shredded-damaged-dead "x" Armor Piercing? How many things (including heros and villians) have power defense, much less hardened power defense? You'd have to define the "damage" of course, and way to "heal" the damage. this could be a rude suprise to things with high defense, but no power defense. If I'm violating rules by this, let me know. But gently please. I'm delicate. (Yeah, right:eg:.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Cuts through anything Last I checked (I could be an Edition back), you were only allowed to have one designated Defense for all your NNDs, to avoid, well, cheese like 'NND: Defense is being in the air' and 'NND: Defense is being on the ground' or 'NND: Having a force field' and 'NND: Not having a force field'. HERO doesn't do absolutes well. He'll have to accept 'nearly anything'. Since we're quibbling, "Not Having A Force Field" is actually an illegal NND Definition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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