Superbeing Rights Debate

[brionl]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

The other issue is that fantasy clones often duplicate the memories and personalities of the original as well.

 

That's when the issue of telling them apart becomes really important.

 

"I'm not the clone! He is!"

 

Of course that's a common trope in I.D.I.O.T. plots, but that doesn't mean it's mandatory for cloning stories.

[Clonus]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

The other issue is that fantasy clones often duplicate the memories and personalities of the original as well.

 

That's when the issue of telling them apart becomes really important.

 

"I'm not the clone! He is!"

 

Yes, that bothers me unless the mad scientist goes to the trouble of making a brain recording or something.

[Lucius]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

My game also has this Forgery Subskill:

 

Why?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Will the real palindromedary please stand up?

[Balabanto]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

1) So that players understand that this requires a special skill that very few have.

 

2) I run a world with around 1200 villains or so. This means that if the PC's are up against one of these cloning masterminds, I want them to be sure they understand that the list of suspects is small, and that the plot is solvable without chasing after a million brilliant burgundy herrings.

 

3) If a PC has the right sciences, they can purchase the skill, however, this is risky, because developing it on your own is illegal, and finding one of the others to teach you will likely have unpleasant consequences. (Getting captured, being cloned yourself, etc) If you have the skill, your opposed roll doesn't have any penalties, which can be a godsend in the right situations. Clones can wear masks, too. They can wear ninja suits and invisibility belts.

 

4) In addition to "Plot control, hey guys, this is what you know." and "I'd really like to notice if this guy's blood sample makes him a clone", there's also "The villain can fail his roll." This means that if the villain doesn't make his roll, the PC's might just get a clue or information they wouldn't otherwise get. If the villain fails his roll badly enough, he may accidentally create his own enemy. (Always funny, especially when your PC's figure it out.)

 

It creates additional ways the plot can go. Because there's no such thing as an NPC.

[Beast]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

would becoming a vampire or other sentient undead void a life insurance policy

 

could your clone who you downloaded your whole life into collect on said policy

 

what about constructs like Friday from the book Friday by Robert Heinlin who are made from more than 2 parents

could there be multiple mothers and fathers

[Clonus]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

would becoming a vampire or other sentient undead void a life insurance policy

 

could your clone who you downloaded your whole life into collect on said policy

 

what about constructs like Friday from the book Friday by Robert Heinlin who are made from more than 2 parents

could there be multiple mothers and fathers

 

If a life insurance company could prove a person was still up walking and talking, they would refuse to pay. Legally at the moment life is defined by brain activity, so as long as they register on an EEG, they would be alive in the eyes of a court no matter what their heart does. If it's a situation where a vampire is something like a demon possessing a formerly living body they would need expert testimony on whether the vampire was the same person.

 

A downloaded insta-clone would have to prove beyond doubt that they were not the same person, and that the prior person's death did not violate the terms of the insurance. Most of that kind of person are uninsurable anyway. Should the technology become generally available of course, it's likely that insurance companies will simply stop offering that kind of insurance.

 

Genetic blends who were not brought to term in a host mother would simply have no parents.

[Naanomi]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

Genetic blends who were not brought to term in a host mother would simply have no parents.

 

What if it was a one-mother, multiple-father situation?

The Trailerparkress' master plot... to collect child support from the world's 100 richest men while raising only one child... muahahahah!

[Karmakaze]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

The other issue is that fantasy clones often duplicate the memories and personalities of the original as well.

 

And haircuts. That trick always impressed me, how clones could come right out of the vat with the same salon-generated hairstyle as their original.

[Cygnia]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

And haircuts. That trick always impressed me' date=' how clones could come right out of the vat with the same salon-generated hairstyle as their original.[/quote']

 

And perfect make-up!

[Clonus]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

What if it was a one-mother, multiple-father situation?

The Trailerparkress' master plot... to collect child support from the world's 100 richest men while raising only one child... muahahahah!

 

If she gives birth to the child ordinarily that she is its mother would be taken for granted unless she has somehow given up her maternal rights such as by agreeing to a surrogacy contract (if the local jurisdiction even allows surrogacy contracts.). But taking genetic material from many different men and combining them into one infant reminds me of the distinction between plagiarism and research. If you steal from one source, it's plagiarism while if you steal from many sources it's research.

 

If you take genetic material from one man, then he's a father, even if he didn't want to be. If you take genetic material from many different men, and put it into an infant, the masculine half of it's ancestry is going to be as artificial as if you built up all the genetics from scratch. The child has no father. Should one of the men in question actively apply for custody, however, the courts are very likely to grant it "in the best interest of the child".

[Naanomi]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

Given that DNA paternity tests only test for key markers, and are not full Genome comparisons... a few false identities and the scam could still probably work. The genetic engineering required might make the scheme unprofitable, but hey... what does cost/benefit analysis ever mean to a Golden/Silver age villain?

 

Here is a good one... what do you do with a villain who you cannot kill... he is immortal, regenerates, reincarnates, whatever... the death sentence won't work, and he could conceivably live through 'multiple life sentences'. A true life sentence for a crime would be cruel and unusual. After 1000 years of imprisonment, no matter how heinous the original crime one could build a case for rehabilitation. Lets say he was a natural born citizen, so you cannot just 'deport' him to another dimension or something.

 

Also, can a body hopping hero/villain run for president more than two terms... what measure is 'self' to someone who can hop from body to body while maintaining a cohesive mind?

[Clonus]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

Given that DNA paternity tests only test for key markers' date=' and are not full Genome comparisons... a few false identities and the scam could still probably work. The genetic engineering required might make the scheme unprofitable, but hey... what does cost/benefit analysis ever mean to a Golden/Silver age villain?[/quote']

 

Well of course proving it is always an issue. Although a culture capable of producing insta-clones could probably come up with better tests.

 

 

Here is a good one... what do you do with a villain who you cannot kill... he is immortal, regenerates, reincarnates, whatever... the death sentence won't work, and he could conceivably live through 'multiple life sentences'.

 

Well...let him then. There are legal precedents for failed executions leading to the release of the convicted criminal, so the prosecution probably won't got for the death penalty once they figure out what the deal is but there is precedent for jail terms that exceed any plausible lifespan for the United States.

 

Also, can a body hopping hero/villain run for president more than two terms... what measure is 'self' to someone who can hop from body to body while maintaining a cohesive mind?

 

It would be exceedingly difficult for such a person to be identified. Even after identification, the courts would have to rule on both the objective reality of the soul, and its status as the seat of identity. There are no precedents that apply so it would be a history-making case.

[Dr Archeville]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

Well...let him then. There are legal precedents for failed executions leading to the release of the convicted criminal' date=' so the prosecution probably won't got for the death penalty once they figure out what the deal is but there is precedent for jail terms that exceed any plausible lifespan for the United States.[/quote']

I believe that's largely Urban Legend. ('Course, in your Game World...)

[Clonus]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

I believe that's largely Urban Legend. ('Course' date=' in your Game World...)[/quote']

 

True. While there are examples of people reprieved after failed executions, they do not constitute precedents. I was wrong.

[Naanomi]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

The courts would have to rule on both the objective reality of the soul' date=' and its status as the seat of identity. There are no precedents that apply so it would be a history-making case.[/quote']

 

I am not sure the law ever mentions a soul... but in any case, I am not so sure it would be hard to prove the existence of one in a super-hero world... Dr. Wacky's Soul-o-meter (Sense: Soul) has been helping determine if beings have to tithe for years now!

[Cygnia]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

I am not sure the law ever mentions a soul... but in any case' date=' I am not so sure it would be hard to prove the existence of one in a super-hero world... Dr. Wacky's Soul-o-meter (Sense: Soul) has been helping determine if beings have to tithe for years now![/quote']

 

Well, there was this case...

 

http://www.answers.com/topic/james-kidd

[Lucius]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

1) So that players understand that this requires a special skill that very few have.

 

2) I run a world with around 1200 villains or so. This means that if the PC's are up against one of these cloning masterminds, I want them to be sure they understand that the list of suspects is small, and that the plot is solvable without chasing after a million brilliant burgundy herrings.

 

3) If a PC has the right sciences, they can purchase the skill, however, this is risky, because developing it on your own is illegal, and finding one of the others to teach you will likely have unpleasant consequences. (Getting captured, being cloned yourself, etc) If you have the skill, your opposed roll doesn't have any penalties, which can be a godsend in the right situations. Clones can wear masks, too. They can wear ninja suits and invisibility belts.

 

4) In addition to "Plot control, hey guys, this is what you know." and "I'd really like to notice if this guy's blood sample makes him a clone", there's also "The villain can fail his roll." This means that if the villain doesn't make his roll, the PC's might just get a clue or information they wouldn't otherwise get. If the villain fails his roll badly enough, he may accidentally create his own enemy. (Always funny, especially when your PC's figure it out.)

 

It creates additional ways the plot can go. Because there's no such thing as an NPC.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't ask that very clearly.

 

What I'm really trying to ask is - why do you create problems for yourself, and then complain about them?

 

Case in point: You decide that the game will include something you have defined as "clones" and then define "clones" in a way that is at odds with both actual cloning and clones as they exist in much science fiction, although it IS in accord with "rubber science" clones as they exist in some comic books. Except I think you have gotten more detailed and particular than such rubber science ever does. In any case, having defined this in-game phenomena, you then declare that it constitutes a problem for you.

 

Second case in point: You declare rules for the courts and legal system in your game that not only are not how the American justice system actually works but as far as I can tell aren't based in how comic book courts work either, such as having something you call "Double Jeopardy" that is not the same thing as the real legal principle of that name. And then, again, you decide that the rules you have created yourself, at least in combination with the phenomenon of "clones," constitute a problem.

 

You end up tying yourself in complicated and, as far as I can tell, unnecessary knots.

 

Not that I'm saying it's wrong. I'm sure a lot of things I do are regarded by some people as equally pointless and unnecessary. I just don't understand it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Some people probably regard the palindromedary as pointless and unnecessary. Then again, I don't expect it to be understood either.

[lemming]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

I'm sure if we thought about it, we'd find a zillion different ways of cloning in comics. It's kind of not a one only path. Actually, most origins are fairly unique unless derived off of a different super...