Hugh Neilson Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Re: Partially limited Multipower No. from 5er page 310: I'm thinking of MPA again, aren't I? Then I return to my first answer - the MP is a partially limited power and should be treated the same as any partially limited power - which I prefer anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Re: Partially limited Multipower Right. The Limitation (any limitation you want) can be applied to only the portion of the power you want. IIRC, in 4th Ed, the character Solitaire was built just like that. She had a focus, without which most of he powers were at half AP. And you can get around it by building a custome limitation: "Power at half strength without the OAF" -1/2. Instead of losing *all* the power when you don't have the focus (which would be a -1), you only lose *half* the power, thus a -1/2 lim. A -1 limitation on half of 80 points results in a 60 point cost. A -1/2 limitation on all 80 costs 53. Should it be cheaper to buy partially limited powers through a Multipower? I say no, which is why I say prohibiting a partially limited framework is a Bad Rule that should be eliminated. If Hero Designer doesn't let you do it' date=' than that's a problem with Hero Designer.[/quote'] Preaching to the choir here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Re: Partially limited Multipower Custom limitation seems the way to go with this: "Abilities are half power without OAF" for -1/2' date=' and you're good to go - no issues setting that up in HD either.[/quote'] Here's why I think the (-1/2) Limitation value is too high for using this approach. If we build the Multipower with just the "Half Power" Limitation at (-1) we get something like this: 40 Limited (Half Power) 80 Active Example: Multipower, 80-point reserve, (80 Active Points); all slots Limited Power All Abilities only usable at Half Power (-1) 4u 1) Energy Blast 16d6 (80 Active Points) - END=8 4u 2) Entangle 8d6, 8 DEF (80 Active Points) - END=8 This Limitation can then be bought off as follows: 24 Focus Based Buyoff of Multipower (Half Power) Limitation: Custom Power (48 Active Points); OAF (-1) - END=0 For just a little added complexity this ends up being just 4 points cheaper than the following far simplier approach: 64 (-1/4) Limited 80 Active Example: Multipower, 80-point reserve, (80 Active Points); all slots Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (-1/4) - END= 6u 1) Energy Blast 16d6 (80 Active Points) - END=8 6u 2) Entangle 8d6, 8 DEF (80 Active Points) - END=8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Re: Partially limited Multipower A -1 limitation on half of 80 points results in a 60 point cost. A -1/2 limitation on all 80 costs 53. Should it be cheaper to buy partially limited powers through a Multipower? I say no' date=' which is why I say prohibiting a partially limited framework is a Bad Rule that should be eliminated.[/quote'] I completely agree. I was just offering the -1/2 as a compromise solution. The value isn't quite right, but it's as close as you can get, as long as lim values are restricted to quarters. Question: Does HD really "enforce" the rules? Couldn't you just go ahead and build this as two MP's with one limited and the other not, and then just go ahead and use them together as if they were one? How is HD going to know you're doing that? AFAIK, HD doesn't actually monitor the way in which the game is played, only the building of characters (and other things). I don't have HD, so i could be wrong about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Re: Partially limited Multipower Question: Does HD really "enforce" the rules? Ultimately, Game Masters enforce the rules in their games. If the GM wants to allow a construct clearly shown to violate the rulebook he's going to have issues using software designed to adhere to that same rulebook. He's on his own then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice9 Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Re: Partially limited Multipower Interesting point - a -1/2 is different than half of a -1. However, -1/2 may be the correct value, because it could also (completely legally) be built as Variable Limitations (-1 worth) for -1/2. Then the only question is if "Power has only half effect" is a -1 limitation, which I would argue it is the textbook example of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Re: Partially limited Multipower A -1 limitation on half of 80 points results in a 60 point cost. A -1/2 limitation on all 80 costs 53. Should it be cheaper to buy partially limited powers through a Multipower? I say no, which is why I say prohibiting a partially limited framework is a Bad Rule that should be eliminated. Preaching to the choir here! AGREED, sometimes I think we get to wraped up in RAW and not enough in Common Sense... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Re: Partially limited Multipower Common sense? What sense group does that belong to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Re: Partially limited Multipower Common sense? What sense group does that belong to? Ironically, the Unusual group. It's the most inappropriately named Sense of them all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Re: Partially limited Multipower My thoughts exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Re: Partially limited Multipower My quote says it all " The only thing common about common sense is the common lack of it." I think it is a twain quote but could never find out from where Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Re: Partially limited Multipower Interesting point - a -1/2 is different than half of a -1. However' date=' -1/2 may be the correct value, because it could also (completely legally) be built as Variable Limitations (-1 worth) for -1/2. Then the only question is if "Power has only half effect" is a -1 limitation, which I would argue it is the textbook example of.[/quote'] -1 = 1/2, and so -1 on half = 1/2+ (1/2x1/2) = 3/4 -1/2 = 2/3 -1/4 = 4/5 Look: no letters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice9 Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 Re: Partially limited Multipower I understand that a "half-limited" -1 would be equal to 3/4 of the cost, whereas a -1/2 is equal to 2/3 of the cost. I was just saying that a -1/2 (thus 2/3 of the cost) may actually be an appropriate value, because that's what using Variable Limitations would give you (with the option for alternate limitations like x3 END to boot). Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your point - the lack of letters confuses me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZilla Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 Re: Partially limited Multipower I cant figure out anyway to to do this' date=' so I come to all of you. I have a character concept that involves an 80 point reserve multipower, but I only want 40 points worth of the MP to be based on a focus. He has the powers innately, but he requires a focus to make them truly effective, and I can not figure out anyway to make this work. Thanks in advance for any suggestions or help anyone can offer.[/quote'] I haven't run the numbers (Hyper-Man probably will ) but try this approach: Build the full 80 point Multipower & full power slots with the Focus Limitation. Compute the costs of the same, only without the Focus Limitation. Take half value of those costs (seperate costs for Reserve and each individual slot) as Custom Powers -- Buying off half of the Focus Limitation on the Reserve and each Slot. Now you have a 40 pt reserve & (presumably) 40 pt slots that aren't limited (because of the buyoff), and the other half that still has the Focus Limitation. The only thing I'm not sure of is whether the RaW would make these Custom Powers cost END and be Instant/Constant/Persistent. I'd say that since it's a Limitation Buyoff, they don't cost END, and I/C/P is irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 Re: Partially limited Multipower I haven't run the numbers (Hyper-Man probably will ) but try this approach: Actually, I already did (back on post 28) just reverse the names of the Limitations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualplayer Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 Re: Partially limited Multipower Without knowing the exact SFX of the power it is tough to know what exactly to suggest but what about setting up the 40 pt MP and then having a 40 AP Aid to all powers in the MP bought through a focus? I've used this before for a character that has some low-level mystical abilities (10 STR TK, Healing, Teleport) that are greatly enhanced by his amulet. The amulet is actually set up as an Aid to any mystical powers so he has loaned it out to others for a dramatic kick in the pants. Doesn't one of the Pulsar write-ups floating around out there have something similar through "focusing bracelets" or something? His blasts are more powerful when he has his armlets on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 Re: Partially limited Multipower Without knowing the exact SFX of the power it is tough to know what exactly to suggest but what about setting up the 40 pt MP and then having a 40 AP Aid to all powers in the MP bought through a focus? ... Whether Aid or Succor based it ends up costing more than 40 real points (more than just buying the 80 point multipower straight). example: 58 Focus Based Continuous Aid to sfx X: Aid 3d6+1 (standard effect: 10 points), Can Add Maximum Of 40 Points, Persistent (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), all [special effect] powers simultaneously (+2) (174 Active Points); OAF (-1), Self Only (-1/2), Limited Special Effect Common SFX (-1/2) - END=0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualplayer Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 Re: Partially limited Multipower Whether Aid or Succor based it ends up costing more than 40 real points (more than just buying the 80 point multipower straight). example: 58 Focus Based Continuous Aid to sfx X: Aid 3d6+1 (standard effect: 10 points), Can Add Maximum Of 40 Points, Persistent (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), all [special effect] powers simultaneously (+2) (174 Active Points); OAF (-1), Self Only (-1/2), Limited Special Effect Common SFX (-1/2) - END=0 Doesn't have to be as many d6 as long as it feeds faster than it fades. And if it just boosts the character's 3 slot MP it probably would only need to be +1/2. I rarely offer the most cost-effective solution because what's the point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 Re: Partially limited Multipower Doesn't have to be as many d6 as long as it feeds faster than it fades. Except if the character loses the focus for a time (which should happen at some point) it will take a lot longer to get back the maximum effect Aid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 Re: Partially limited Multipower 58 Focus Based Continuous Aid to sfx X: Aid 3d6+1 (standard effect: 10 points)' date=' Can Add Maximum Of 40 Points, Persistent (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), all [special effect'] powers simultaneously (+2) (174 Active Points); OAF (-1), Self Only (-1/2), Limited Special Effect Common SFX (-1/2) - END=0 Doesn't have to be as many d6 as long as it feeds faster than it fades. And if it just boosts the character's 3 slot MP it probably would only need to be +1/2. I rarely offer the most cost-effective solution because what's the point? Except if the character loses the focus for a time (which should happen at some point) it will take a lot longer to get back the maximum effect Aid. However, it also takes time for the Aid to fade away after he loses his focus. I don't see Aid capturing the effect of "I have more power if I have my focus". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 Re: Partially limited Multipower Hmm... 32 points 80 point MP -1 OAF Lockout the other MP -1/2 PLUS 27 points 40 point MP Lockout on other pool -1/2 Total 59 points. Woot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZilla Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 Re: Partially limited Multipower Hmm... 32 points 80 point MP -1 OAF Lockout the other MP -1/2 PLUS 27 points 40 point MP Lockout on other pool -1/2 Total 59 points. Woot. The only problem I see with making it two completely seperate Multipowers is what happens when Character+Focus is Drained past halfway, and then looses Focus? All of a sudden, loosing the Focus makes the character *more* powerful because the previously locked-out (and un-Drained) MP is now the active one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 Re: Partially limited Multipower The only problem I see with making it two completely seperate Multipowers is what happens when Character+Focus is Drained past halfway' date=' and then looses Focus? All of a sudden, loosing the Focus makes the character *more* powerful because the previously locked-out (and un-Drained) MP is now the active one?[/quote'] Add the "drain 1 drain all" limitation - consider allowing it to be a +/-0 "adjust one adjust all" modifier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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