Hero Version of The Everyman

[Alibear]

Re: Hero Version of The Everyman

 

I've studied karate on and off for 15 years. I've done competition, my brother trained with Stephen Wallace, the then Scotland Tae Kwon Do team captain. My current trainer, Sepp Kröll was on the German national team for over a decade. I've seen a lot of good amateur fighters. I'm yet to see anyone justify the +4d6 kick.

 

I'd rate my punch at +0dc and my heaviest kicks at +1dc. Maybe +2dc if I'm on top of my game. I reckon my ocv + dcv is a bit better than your average bloke's but I don't think I hit that much harder.

 

You quite often see accidents in the dojo and I rarely see anyone with anything worse than a broken finger/toe /nose, bruised ribs or a burst lip.

 

The best boxers and martial artists in the world might generate 7-8 but I don't think they really do or there would be a trail of dead bodies wherever they fought and trained. I think 4 or 5 damage classes is more realistic. 6 tops.

 

In those full contact martial arts programmes how often are people seriously injured? Really seriously injured? Boxers do die but it happens so rarely that you have to think that was the exception, a freak accident, not the rule.

 

There was a case in Scotland of a Tae kwon Do black belt flipping out and beating up his step dad(who had beat up his disabled brother) The guy was in hospital, not the morgue, after a heavy and sustained attack.

[Alibear]

Re: Hero Version of The Everyman

 

As to the damage class issue' date=' comparison studies I've seen put the force of pro boxers' punches at the extreme upper end of what any martial artist can generate with the upper body (kicks by various Eastern arts had a bit more oomph than such blows, topped out by Muay Thay kickboxers). I don't think you can make a case for a handful of the best boxers in the world being restricted to +1 DC on their signature move if Karate and Kung Fu experts are able to buy +3 or +4 across the full spectrum of their maneuvers.[/quote']

 

I meant, strength + maneuver + damage classes. I just don't see it in all but the best fighters in the world. If at all.

[Zed-F]

Re: Hero Version of The Everyman

 

Even if I were to agree with you on those damage rankings -- and I'm not sure that I do -- that's why hero simulates CINEMATIC realism. If you want to play real life boxing... go get in the ring or watch a match.

 

I mean come on. If Hero were the real world, we'd have all sorts of other absurdities to contend with. Two average people with average strength, no particular skill at fighting, and no weapons but their fists, would never be able to kill each other. But we all know that does happen from time to time, and even more it sometimes happens in one blow -- flatly impossible in Hero terms even taking hit location modifiers into account.

 

There is such a thing as taking the quest for realism too far. We are here to have fun playing characters and being the hero or the villain, not worry about simulating everything down to the Nth degree. A certain amount of simulation is good for suspension of disbelief. Too much will wreck your game.

[OddHat]

Re: Hero Version of The Everyman

 

I've seen a lot of good amateur fighters. I'm yet to see anyone justify the +4d6 kick.

 

In a heroic campaign, you only get the +4d6 if you have 4DC to start with. You'd need STR 20, which is incredibly rare in the real world (not that STR in Hero is "realistic"), or extra HtH DCs.

 

You quite often see accidents in the dojo and I rarely see anyone with anything worse than a broken finger/toe /nose, bruised ribs or a burst lip.

 

When sparring, even when making full contact, you are not trying to kill your sparring partner. People hold back. How much they hold back varies from dojo to dojo, kwoon to kwoon, style to style and teacher to teacher, but they (almost) always hold back.

 

The best boxers and martial artists in the world might generate 7-8 but I don't think they really do or there would be a trail of dead bodies wherever they fought and trained.

 

Unless the partners they typically used that level of force against had 6-8 PD, in which case there wouldn't.

 

In those full contact martial arts programmes how often are people seriously injured? Really seriously injured? Boxers do die but it happens so rarely that you have to think that was the exception, a freak accident, not the rule.

 

The full contact TV shows are still formal matches between men who really aren't trying to kill one another.

 

There was a case in Scotland of a Tae kwon Do black belt flipping out and beating up his step dad(who had beat up his disabled brother) The guy was in hospital, not the morgue, after a heavy and sustained attack.

 

There was a case in Philadelphia of one teen killing another with a single punch in a bar fight. Real damage is complex; strange things happen.

 

And, as Zed notes, HERO was designed for simulating Heroic media; the rules (when they're working) tend to support the kind of combat you see in a comic book or action movie, not street violence or war.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hero Version of The Everyman

 

I don't think Hero, or any game system can, or should try to, represent the differences between different but similar sportspersons with anything other than the illusion of getting it right. You can distinguish similar individuals in small ways though: a point of COM, a predeliction for poetry, a fear of cats, or just a well thought out description and a distinctive speech pattern.

 

Ultimately that is what matters: the illusion of getting it right. Hero does that very nicely.

[Alibear]

Re: Hero Version of The Everyman

 

 

 

Unless the partners they typically used that level of force against had 6-8 PD, in which case there wouldn't.

 

 

Well, do you think A pro boxer can leap off a tall building or shrug off an attack from a baseball bat? No? Then they don't have 6-8 pd. No-one in the world does.

 

Still cinematic realism is not the same as reality. But that wasn't the question, the question was what characteristics we can safely model. We know what damage does. That's our benchmark. Not Bruce Willis in Die hard who I'd give 8 pd without blinking.

[OddHat]

Re: Hero Version of The Everyman

 

Well' date=' do you think A pro boxer can leap off a tall building or shrug off an attack from a baseball bat? No? Then they don't have 6-8 pd. No-one in the world does.[/quote']

 

It depends on where and how he lands, or the bat hits. Damage is complex.

 

And even in Hero, 6-8d6 doesn't represent that far a fall. It's a 3-4 story building.

 

We know what damage does. That's our benchmark.

 

Hero damage doesn't do what real damage does. It's not, for the purpose of modelling reality, a good benchmark.

[Vondy]

Re: Hero Version of The Everyman

 

Well' date=' do you think A pro boxer can leap off a tall building or shrug off an attack from a baseball bat? No? Then they don't have 6-8 pd. No-one in the world does.[/quote']

 

This assumes generalized hero damage applies with equal rationality to specific situations. Hero damage is primarily geared and used for character vs. character conflict, not character vs. concrete conflict. The falling rules are the exception rather than the norm. They also don't scale well and are something of a kludge.

[Alibear]

Re: Hero Version of The Everyman

 

It depends on where and how he lands' date=' or the bat hits. Damage is complex.[/quote'] The randomness of damage and complexity things is why we roll dice, isn't it?

 

 

And even in Hero' date=' 6-8d6 doesn't represent that far a fall. It's a 3-4 story building..[/quote']

 

Exactly, so how many peole leap off 3-4 story buildings and don't break legs? Not far in cinema or comics but a decent leap of faith if you want test your PD in real life. I live on the third floor of an apartment building and do not fancy taking a tumble from it.

 

 

 

Hero damage doesn't do what real damage does. It's not' date=' for the purpose of modelling reality, a good benchmark.[/quote']

 

Are you saying the core mechanics of the Hero system are broken?

[Alibear]

Re: Hero Version of The Everyman

 

This assumes generalized hero damage applies with equal rationality to specific situations. Hero damage is primarily geared and used for character vs. character conflict' date=' not character vs. concrete conflict. The falling rules are the exception rather than the norm. They also don't scale well and are something of a kludge.[/quote']

 

 

You'll have to explain what you think is wrong with them.

 

Damage is as far as I can tell a good benchmark in the Hero system.

 

If you want to lsurvive a terminal velocity fall buy 30 pd. If you want to be bulletproof we can work out how much pd you need by loking at how much damage weapons do.

 

A normal person with a baseball bat does 3d6N damage. If you want to be able to withstand a few licks of that without going to hospital with broken bones you'll need at least 3-4 pd.

 

What is wrong with that thinking?

 

 

If you want to make clubs more deadly then convert that to killing damage so people can have high pds against fists but none against weapons. Or, leave as is and scale your attacks to what we know.

 

I'm not saying don't buy 8 pd and 8d6 attacks in a heroic campaign. I'm saying it's not realistic. Being run over by a car doing 30mph might do damage in that region (I haven't crunched any numbers just a rough guesstimate) and if you think being kicked by your local martial artist is comparible then you need to get down the dojo and see what actually happens there.

[OddHat]

Re: Hero Version of The Everyman

 

Exactly' date=' so how many peole leap off 3-4 story buildings and don't break legs? Not far in cinema or comics but a decent leap of faith if you want test your PD in real life. I live on the third floor of an apartment building and do [i']not[/i] fancy taking a tumble from it.

 

Good choice. On the other hand, there are people who have taken plunges off of 3-4 story buildings without breaking bones. And there are also people who trip and break bones hitting the floor. Real world damage is not Hero damage.

 

Are you saying the core mechanics of the Hero system are broken?

 

Hero's mechanics do a fine job of simulating what they were meant to simulate: Heroic action. If you want to get "realistic", you'll need to come up with a long list of campaign rules and tweaks. And if you want something playable, you'll still end up with an abstraction.

 

And that assumes you'll be able to get people to agree on what is and isn't "realistic" in the first place.

[Vondy]

Re: Hero Version of The Everyman

 

You'll have to explain what you think is wrong with them.

 

Damage is as far as I can tell a good benchmark in the Hero system.

 

You keep harping on the fact that a heroic character with an 8d6 attack and 8PD is unrealistic because of the falling damage ratios. The systems damage/defense ratios are geared for character to character combat, not falling out of the sky. Its never been "falling man hero" and the current application of falling damage is an exceptional case derived from Hero's legacy as a super-hero game. The problem isn't in modeling heroic level characters. The problem is that the falling damage rules don't model realistic falls (for those who want them).

 

This is borne out by you falling boxer example. I say this because I think it would be an error to try to make character design jive with the falling rules. I say this for two reasons: 1) its far less work to tweak the falling rules into line with the rest of the system than visa-versa, and 2) the games focus has never been man vs. concrete. The falling rules are fine for superheroes/wuxia/high-end cinematic effects. For "realistic" falls you need to tweak them. There are a few easy ways to do that.

 

This isnt to say I think many boxers have more than 4-5DCs and 4-5 PD. I don't. But the heavy weight title fighters, they may well be in the 6-8 range. I don't think the problem is the character level scale. I think its the application of falling damage. Oh, and for your baseball bat comment. I don't agree a baseball bat should be built as normal damage. I think it should be a 2DC Killing Attack.

[Alibear]

Re: Hero Version of The Everyman

 

I gave three examples of damge we know from the system.

 

Being hit by a car, smacked by a baseball bat or falling off a high building. All are normal damage according to the hero system but perhaps should be killing attacks? No pro boxer can take being run over by a car at 40 mph but if they had 8 pd they could and walk away quite nicely.

 

 

The only way to keep high pd and attacks lethal is to exchange all attacks bar unarmed ones to killing.

 

The bat becomes 1d6k, the fall and the car becomes 2 & 1/2K. This makes perfect sense to me.

 

If you don't do that you can't have people with more than 2 pd and be realistic.

 

Maybe that is the answer, a realistic campaign has all but fisticuffs converting to killing attacks?

[OddHat]

Re: Hero Version of The Everyman

 

Maybe that is the answer' date=' a realistic campaign has all but fisticuffs converting to killing attacks?[/quote']

 

Converting falling damage to killing damage is one of the optional rules for enhancing realism; I'd use it in a "Normals" campaign.

[Alibear]

Re: Hero Version of The Everyman

 

And being hit by baseball bats and run over by cars?

[OddHat]

Re: Hero Version of The Everyman

 

And being hit by baseball bats and run over by cars?

 

Cars probably yes, baseball bats only if I wanted a really lethal campaign. At that stage I'd probably just eliminate the distinction between killing and normal damage entirely (as there are people who can kill with one punch, people who die after a beating with fists and feet, people who fall off of 4 story buildings and walk away, etc), and we'd have this argument over again.

[OddHat]

Re: Hero Version of The Everyman

 

Thinking about it, if I was going to get really anal about representing damage, I'd make a distinction between the DCs and maneuvers you could learn in Sport based training vs Combat based training, and the number of DCs you could bring into play in Sport vs Predatory Attack vs Monkey Dancing vs Formal Combat.

 

In Meditations on Violence, Rory Miller tells an interesting story about a karateka friend who was mugged. The friend was highly skilled, and had competed. When the mugging took place, the karateka launched, without thinking, a punch that snapped through the air. The punch stopped instantly when it touched the muggers shirt. The Karateka had trained to score points, and to never hurt a sparring partner. He hadn't trained to deliver force. The mugger did not suffer from that disadvantage.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hero Version of The Everyman

 

Thinking about it, if I was going to get really anal about representing damage, I'd make a distinction between the DCs and maneuvers you could learn in Sport based training vs Combat based training, and the number of DCs you could bring into play in Sport vs Predatory Attack vs Monkey Dancing vs Formal Combat.

 

In Meditations on Violence, Rory Miller tells an interesting story about a karateka friend who was mugged. The friend was highly skilled, and had competed. When the mugging took place, the karateka launched, without thinking, a punch that snapped through the air. The punch stopped instantly when it touched the muggers shirt. The Karateka had trained to score points, and to never hurt a sparring partner. He hadn't trained to deliver force. The mugger did not suffer from that disadvantage.

 

 

Truth. I think most people have a code v killing at some level, and even a code v hurting - unless they are really mad, people rarely launch the most effective attacks they can even if violence is thrust upon them, and it is not just lack of training, but a genuine reluctance to harm others.

[Alibear]

Re: Hero Version of The Everyman

 

I don't think it's a code v killing as much as fear and ignorance and incorrect training or lack of it entirely. The Grace Under Fire rules go somewhat to simulate normal people being thrust into abnormal situations.

 

It's a big deal to actually hit someone if you haven't grown up in that kind of environment. It's actually surprisingly difficult to hit someone back even if you've been hit yourself. Our society frowns on casual violence and not to disregard the law and is drilled into most of us from an early age.

 

Fighting is a skill just like any other which needs to be constantly practiced to be useful. If your dojo doesn't train for self defence but only for sport you'll likely be screwed in a real fight.

 

For a real person to write up a maneuver on his 'character sheet' he should have actually done it in a real life, life or death situation or it doesn't count.