How Long Does It Take To Fall?

[Manic Typist]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Increasing everything is not the solution.

 

If you were an ork, you´d be ashamed to say something like that.

[Vondy]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

If we say all 'normal' people have 1-3 pd then the falling rules work at a cursury glance don't they?

 

Normal people have 1-8 PD. If we say they only have 1-3 we might as well throw hero out the window for anything other than supers and extremely cinematic games as you have, to force the falling rules into line, removed all meaningful granularity from the system. You can apply whatever range you like, but I can't find anything to support it in the book. Quite the opposite.

[Alibear]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

No, normal people don't have 1-8 pd. No person I have ever seen does. Cars, falls and baseball bats have left me convinced of that. Your mileage obviously varies so let's leave it at that.

 

edit: I actually sometimes wonder if we have any PD/Ed at all.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Objection!

 

Assumption.

Objection overruled. If a GM doesn't know in advance what planet the action is taking place on, then what the heck is going on? The only thing I can think of is that he must be generating an entire planet on the fly. And if the GM is willing to do something that complex (not simple) during game time, then calculating a falling time "on the fly" shouldn't be a problem.

 

And you completely ignore the rest of the examples and definitions.

That's because they aren't relevant. I, at least, am talking about an aspect of running a game, not about the definition of words.

 

You say:

"t=sqrt( 2y/g)" and state that g is 10

and then jump to "t=sqrt(y/5)" with no explanation of why g which is 10 became 5 or what happened to the 2 in the equation. Now my understanding of math is such that I understand the step you skipped, but a fair number of people wouldn't (or at least would have to stop and think about it a moment.

They wouldn't even have to think about the "missing step" because it's not even a real step. 2/10 = 1/5, that was true yesterday, and it will still be true tomorrow. It's not a calculation you have to do "on the fly". The formula is simple: "the square root of one fifth of the height fallen". Any steps taken to get to that formula are not needed "on the fly".

 

You can't even give a truly "simple" example because you're so intent on making it "simple" that you are leaving things out for the reader to figure out on their own).

And yet, you did figure it out on your own. It's irrelevant in any case, because it's not about "the reader," it's about the players and GM of the game, who never have to do that step I "left out".

 

And then, skip the process of figuring out the Square Root. Here's the most common method for finding the square root of a number without a calculator:

Who said you can't use a calculator? If you're willing to spend $50 on the main rulebook and another $20-30 on each additional book, plus dice, and maybe a battlemat and minis, a few more bucks for a cheap calculator with a square root button shouldn't be a problem.

 

But even if you can't use a calculator at all, it's still just a game! HERO measures time in discrete segments or seconds. You'll never need to be more accurate than to the half-second or so. One iteration of the x/r method should be enough. You should know immediately that the square root of 16 is 4, and the square root of 25 is 5, so the square root of 20 (being about half-way between 16 and 25) is about 4.5. That's as accurate as you'll need for the sake of the game. Don't make it harder than it needs to be.

 

Also, when dealing with flying characters I’m usually measuring height by how far they’ve moved so in hexes. Now this is easy to turn to meters, by multiplying by two, but it is another step. Also, like many players in the USA I do height of people, buildings, landmarks, et cetera in feet, (or maybe yards, but usually feet).

So, turn feet or hexes into meters, then do a two or three part equation. Then, if necessary figure damage (I know the OP didn’t ask for that, but it would usually be part of the same situation). Does not sound simple to do without interrupting play. At least not compared to looking at a chart…

It doesn't sound simple only because you're making it sound "not simple". The conversion of hexes to meters is a constant, so it's not something you have to do on the fly. The equation becomes sqrt(2y/5). The entire procedure is:

 

How many hexes high is the fall?

Multiply that by 2.

Divide by 5.

Take the square root of that.

That's how many seconds (segments) the fall takes.

 

What is the problem?

 

And if you're using feet in a HERO game, why? Just to make things harder so you can complain about how not simple it is? Even if you insist on doing everything in feet, despite the way everything in the game is presented, it's still a constant convertion factor, which doesn't need to be calculated on the fly. Instead of 2/5 (from hexes) or 1/5 (from meters), use 1/16 - a pretty close estimate - for feet.

 

How many feet high is the fall?

Divide by 16.

Take the square root of that.

That's how many seconds (segments) the fall takes.

 

After punching in the height in hexes, it's the following keystrokes on a calculator:

 

x2/5(SQRT) - 5 button presses

 

From meters, it's: /5(SQRT) - three button presses

 

From feet, it's /16(SQRT) - four button presses

 

Personally I think of math that is simple as anything I can do with nothing more than a pen and paper in less than a minute. So, that’s most addition, subtraction, multiplication, even most long division as long as you always stop at the same number of decimals out (I usually only do 4). Then again, this is totally opinion on my part. Simple is subjective.

You'll never need four decimal places in a HERO System game. This isn't rocket science. Most of the time, you won't even need one decimal place. It really doesn't matter what you (or I, or anyone else) consider "simple". What matters is what you can do during a game with very little effort - punching 5 buttons on a calculator. And many times, you don't even have to do that - if for example, the GM has planned out in advance that the Orange Orc is going to throw Stacy Gwen off the bridge, he already knows how high the bridge is, and can figure out that the fall will take 4.5 seconds before play begins.

 

Also, I like how you do an example “on the fly” over the internet. I’m sure you did it quickly and in your head, but anyone could spend 20 minutes doing a much more difficult problem and then post it as an example of doing it “on the fly”.

I fail to see how anyone with a normal brain and a high-school diploma would take twenty minutes to do the following:

 

100 divided by 5 is 20.

The square root of 20 is about half way between the square roots of 16 (4) and 25 (5).

The answer is about 4.5.

 

Try timing yourself. Pick a random number of hexes, multiply by two, divide by five, and find the square root (within 1/2). You're allowed to use a calculator.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

I didn't say anyone would take 20 minutes doing that problem. I specifically said doing a much more difficult problem. It was not part of my argument about this being simple or not, it was simply an observation on the futility of trying to demonstrate time oriented things on a forum. I find it funny but bordering on inane.

 

The other definitions I give are relevant. I don't just reiterate the definition; I examine how they apply to the situation. It’s ‘simplicity itself’ to see that the equation does not fit the definition of “simple”

 

P.S. Almost all high school level math is "simple" with a calculator.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Afterthought: Our whole conversation has pretty much become inane.

[McCoy]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

OK, two questions on a related topic.

 

(1) Master Tigress dives from the roof of the Jade Palace and freefalls for eleven seconds before executing a series of breakfall maneuvers. Approximently how far above the floor of the Valley of Peace is the Jade Palace?

 

(2) Tai Lung stuns Po long enough to take the Dragon Scroll by using a maneuver I call Buddha's Palm (from Kung Fu Hustle). This consist of leaping as high as possible into the air, then preforming a Move Through on your target on the ground using your falling momentum as your velocity. Unless the ground gives way, the target takes full damage plus any damage from Knockback. As the target is not knocked back, the attacker takes full damage from his move through. How would you write this up as a Martial Arts maneuver?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

OK, two questions on a related topic.

 

(1) Master Tigress dives from the roof of the Jade Palace and freefalls for eleven seconds before executing a series of breakfall maneuvers. Approximently how far above the floor of the Valley of Peace is the Jade Palace?

I don't know, but I can tell you how far (s)he* fell during those eleven seconds.

 

11 squared is 121, times 5 is 605. 605 meters, or 302.5 hexes. No calculator needed, did it in my head in under a minute. Miraculous? No. Simple? Yes.

 

*"Master" seems to imply male, while "Tigress" seems to imply female. Not that it's relevant.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Master is often used for males and females since "Mistress", its feminine version, has a very different and negative connotation now a days, namely that of a man’s extra marital lover, and more recently whole leather and whips “mistress” thing.

[Alibear]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

I don't know, but I can tell you how far (s)he* fell during those eleven seconds.

 

11 squared is 121, times 5 is 605. 605 meters, or 302.5 hexes. No calculator needed, did it in my head in under a minute. Miraculous? No. Simple? Yes.

 

*"Master" seems to imply male, while "Tigress" seems to imply female. Not that it's relevant.

 

Have you not seen Kung Fu Panda? Get it watched. Now!

 

 

 

That was simple. Is that all I have to do? to work out how far someone falls? I could work that out in my head in about 10 seconds I reckon. The trick for me is knowing what I have to work out.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

OK, two questions on a related topic.

 

(1) Master Tigress dives from the roof of the Jade Palace and freefalls for eleven seconds before executing a series of breakfall maneuvers. Approximently how far above the floor of the Valley of Peace is the Jade Palace?

 

The width of a dream

 

(2) Tai Lung stuns Po long enough to take the Dragon Scroll by using a maneuver I call Buddha's Palm (from Kung Fu Hustle). This consist of leaping as high as possible into the air' date=' then preforming a Move Through on your target on the ground using your falling momentum as your velocity. Unless the ground gives way, the target takes full damage plus any damage from Knockback. As the target is not knocked back, the attacker takes full damage from his move through. How would you write this up as a Martial Arts maneuver?[/quote']

 

Elegantly

 

 

 

What?

 

 

 

As for the second one you basically get to add your leaping velocity damage (your falling velocity on landing will be the negative of your initial upward leap velocity) - so it looks pretty much like a normal move through with slightly unusual sfx (character stops at move through point and KB is always straight down, you can probably only attack someone half a move away even though you use a full move)

[McCoy]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

I don't know, but I can tell you how far (s)he* fell during those eleven seconds.

 

11 squared is 121, times 5 is 605. 605 meters, or 302.5 hexes. No calculator needed, did it in my head in under a minute. Miraculous? No. Simple? Yes.

About a third of a mile? That's what I got. Thanks for the conformation.

 

*"Master" seems to imply male' date=' while "Tigress" seems to imply female. Not that it's relevant.[/quote']

Two main female characters in the movie, inevitably referred to as Master Tigress and Mistress Viper. I don't speak Mandarin, but wouldn't the honorific have been gender neutral? Of course, there are also jokes in the movie that absolutely would not have worked in Chinese. ("I'm not a big fat panda; I'm the big fat panda!" absolutely would not translate.)

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Master is often used for males and females since "Mistress"' date=' its feminine version, has a very different and negative connotation now a days, namely that of a man’s extra marital lover, and more recently whole leather and whips “mistress” thing.[/quote']

I'd say it depends on context. In the context of an RPG, if I hear of a character called "Mistress Tigress" it wouldn't even enter my mind that she's a dominatrix, or that she's having an affair with a married man. Avoiding a word because of a possible connotation only strengthens that connotation. Using the word correctly without the connotation will help to weaken it.

 

Have you not seen Kung Fu Panda? Get it watched. Now!

Ugh! No thanks.

 

Two main female characters in the movie' date=' inevitably referred to as Master Tigress and Mistress Viper. I don't speak Mandarin, but wouldn't the honorific have been gender neutral?[/quote']

I don't speak Mandarin either, but I doubt it. AFAIK, almost every language in the world has *more* gender-specific words than English.

 

[/OFF-TOPIC]

[prestidigitator]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

I don't speak Mandarin either' date=' but I doubt it. AFAIK, almost every language in the world has *more* gender-specific words than English.[/quote']

 

And yet we can't even come up with a singular gender-neutral pronoun acceptable for use with people. We're stuck with using his/her, he/she, etc. I've been tempted to use "it", but I usually settle for "them" even though it is supposed to be plural.

[Greywind]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Why do we need it?

[SteveZilla]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Why do we need it?

 

To make the PC minority happy, I guess. Or IMO just to shut them the heck up for a little while.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

I'd say it depends on context. In the context of an RPG' date=' if I hear of a character called "Mistress Tigress" it wouldn't even enter my mind that she's a dominatrix, or that she's having an affair with a married man. Avoiding a word because of a possible connotation only strengthens that connotation. Using the word correctly without the connotation will help to weaken it.[/quote']

Um, wow. I just said it is often used that way. I wasn't saying it should be used that way (or shouldn't). You said master implies male (which is true historically and is often still true today) and I explained that there are cases where that isn't true. I wasn't advocating one use or the other of “master” or “mistress”, just stating a fact. The fact that you don’t agree with a modern connotation of a word is no reason to remain ignorant of its common usage or to make pointless mistakes concerning gender.

[McCoy]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

And yet we can't even come up with a singular gender-neutral pronoun acceptable for use with people. We're stuck with using his/her' date=' he/she, etc. I've been tempted to use "it", but I usually settle for "them" even though it is supposed to be plural. [/quote']

"Them" for a single person of indetermanate gender goes back to at least the 20's. After all, "you" used to be plural, is now plural or singular.

 

Ugh! No thanks.

It really is a good movie.

 

I don't speak Mandarin either' date=' but I doubt it. AFAIK, almost every language in the world has *more* gender-specific words than English.[/quote']

Some do. Most? Almost all? Anybody got a cite on that?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Some do. Most? Almost all? Anybody got a cite on that?

I don't have a sight, but most romance languages (Spanish, French, and other decedents of Latin) have many more gender designators than English.

[SteveZilla]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Talk about derails. In a thread about Falling (and indirectly gravity), we end up talking about gender designators in Languages.

[Alibear]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

A thread hasn't reached it's maturity till it's wandered off topic at least twice. And frankly, is hardly worth reading until it does.

[McCoy]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

I don't have a sight, but most romance languages (Spanish, French, and other decedents of Latin) have many more gender designators than English.

Agree on romance languages, largely because adjectives are gender inflected and AFAIK we olny have one of those in English (a blond is a fair haired, fair skinned man, a blonde is a fair haired, fair skinned woman). But there are what, six, maybe seven romance languages in the world?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Um' date=' wow. I just said it is often used that way. I wasn't saying it should be used that way (or shouldn't). You said master implies male (which is true historically and is [i']often[/i] still true today) and I explained that there are cases where that isn't true. I wasn't advocating one use or the other of “master” or “mistress”, just stating a fact. The fact that you don’t agree with a modern connotation of a word is no reason to remain ignorant of its common usage or to make pointless mistakes concerning gender.

Don't take it personally. I wasn't criticizing you. I am fully aware of the connotations of the word "mistress," and I don't "disagree" with them, but I am also aware of its denotations, and that there is no reason to assume that connotations take precedent, or are even implied most of the time.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Perhaps the easiest way to gender neutralise (is that what I meant to say?) the pronouns is simply to abbreviate:

 

'e doesn't now what 'e's talking about.

 

They have already adopted this approach in Yorkshire.

[Alibear]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

But they mean a bloke when they say 'e.