How Long Does It Take To Fall?

[Alibear]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

I failed maths but got a 1 in both English and Arithmetic.

 

Letters for writing, numbers for counting.

[Greywind]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

I'll tell that to the Math Professor that moderates another board I'm on...

[Crypt]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

I have a question about falling damages = in the optional rules (which uses VLF) falling damages are multiplied by 2. Why ?

[Alibear]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Inches to metres?

[Crypt]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Inches to metres?

 

 

I don't think so.

Actually i think falling damages should use the same equation as move through.

[Alibear]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Why? You're not using your strength & movement you're using gravity's.

[Crypt]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Why? You're not using your strength & movement you're using gravity's.

 

This is the same.

 

Move through => Falling

STR = MASS

movement = velocity

acceleration = gravity (=> thanks to Einstein's theory of General relativity )

 

damages come from the kinetic energy of the impact (e=1/2mv^2. VLF is the log of v^2, that's why DMG dices = STR or MASS + VLF. But i see no reason for the falling's X2. )

[Alibear]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

I really have to learn to keep my nose out of Physics/ Maths stuff.

[Crypt]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

I really have to learn to keep my nose out of Physics/ Maths stuff.

 

 

This is just some basics of Physics. Honestly that's not harder than learning HERO rules. (even simpler IMHO)

[Alibear]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Yeah well maybe so, but I have an interest in learning Hero rules.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

This is the same.

 

Move through => Falling

STR = MASS

movement = velocity

acceleration = gravity (=> thanks to Einstein's theory of General relativity )

 

damages come from the kinetic energy of the impact (e=1/2mv^2. VLF is the log of v^2, that's why DMG dices = STR or MASS + VLF. But i see no reason for the falling's X2. )

 

 

Here I can help, to an extent. Taking an impact and stopping at the end of a fall LOOK the same in physics, but not if you model it right. The body is not honogenous - it is made up of various organs held together by connective tissue. Armour can absorb an impact's energy and spread it, but you are unlikely to go from 0 velocity to terminal velocity instantly unless you are hit by something massive traveling at terminal velocity. That is what the ground is, in effect, something massive moveing (relative to you) at terminal velocity that transfers all of its energy almost instantly (depending on how squishy the ground is). When you fall all your internal organs are falling and stop with you BUT that causes the connective tissue to stretch and tear, often causing massive internal injuries from deceleration forces, which you do not generally get from a move through. As momentum consevation generally means you do not gain the same velocity from a move through you would lose from stopping at the end of a fall.

 

Now move through damage depends on how fast you are going in a phase based system, which means that, unless you are SPD 12 Velocity is not the same as Move. This is another problem: you are falling at terminal velocity at 30" per segment IIRC - should you take the same damage as a move through from a SPD 2 character doing 30" per phase?

 

That's why velocity based damage makes more sense - it sidesteps the segment/phase problem - but that still doesn't mean you would necessarily take the same damage from a move through as a terminal velocity fall.

[Manic Typist]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

That depends entirely on where you got your high school diploma. The creative use of the lockpicking, stealth and PS Burglar skills are not going to multiply P and I and E. And square it.

 

Hmmmm.......square pie.......

 

 

...what kind of high school did you go to???

[Crypt]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Here I can help, to an extent. Taking an impact and stopping at the end of a fall LOOK the same in physics, but not if you model it right. The body is not honogenous - it is made up of various organs held together by connective tissue. Armour can absorb an impact's energy and spread it, but you are unlikely to go from 0 velocity to terminal velocity instantly unless you are hit by something massive traveling at terminal velocity. That is what the ground is, in effect, something massive moveing (relative to you) at terminal velocity that transfers all of its energy almost instantly (depending on how squishy the ground is). When you fall all your internal organs are falling and stop with you BUT that causes the connective tissue to stretch and tear, often causing massive internal injuries from deceleration forces, which you do not generally get from a move through. As momentum consevation generally means you do not gain the same velocity from a move through you would lose from stopping at the end of a fall.

 

 

You introduce a new factor = surface of impact.

Why not taking this into account when talking, for instance, about a wide enough* truck hitting a human ?

* wide enough = with the same surface of impact as a ground crash.

 

If the energy is the same and if its repartition is the same so should be its DC, imho.

(Surface elasticity is another factor but this is not necessarily in favor of the ground...)

 

As least we could say: "if an impact spreads to multiple locations DC could be increased whatever the nature of the impact."

(for the sake of our sanity we may say that area attacks are not concerned. They get what they are paid for.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

You introduce a new factor = surface of impact.

Why not taking this into account when talking, for instance, about a wide enough* truck hitting a human ?

* wide enough = with the same surface of impact as a ground crash.

 

If the energy is the same and if its repartition is the same so should be its DC, imho.

(Surface elasticity is another factor but this is not necessarily in favor of the ground...)

 

As least we could say: "if an impact spreads to multiple locations DC could be increased whatever the nature of the impact."

(for the sake of our sanity we may say that area attacks are not concerned. They get what they are paid for.)

 

Indeed I do, but there are other factors too: a sufficiently strong character, or a sufficiently well anchored character may not have a change of velocity at all even if hit by something massive.

 

So, I would agree that the effects of a terminal velocity fall would be similar to the effects of a move-through by something massive traveling at (terminal velocity) where the impacted target is almost instantly accelerated to the same velocity, but otherwise not so much. It is not just the impact or the area of the impact but also the effect of rapid acceleration that makes stopping at the end of a fall so very unpleasant.

[aylwin13]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Absolutely OT: I keep reading this thread's title as:

 

How Long Does It Take To Fall Off?

[Sean Waters]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

...what kind of high school did you go to???

 

More of a low school, really

[bigbywolfe]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

All this talk of how "simple" the physics is to work out makes me think you guys want WAY more granularity to the game than I care for.

[Vondy]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Simplicity?

 

y = (1/2) g t^2

t = sqrt(2 g y)

 

That's simple. Honestly I don't know what kind of favor people think they're doing themselves by coming up with tables and averages and such. Nothing as simple as a nice little equation like that.

 

Now I'm sure I'll need my

 

 

Maybe because people who are good at applied physics post raw equations without an explanation of what it means or how to do it. A lot of people aren't good at math and their eyes cross when people do what you just did. They may also feel as though they are being classified as stupid because its been declared simple, but they didn't know the equation and don't know how to decipher it. They usually aren't dumb, but they didn't fill their science requirements with physics, either. Sometimes you need to spell it out. Once you do they can do it. I'm not sure how exciting it is to sit down and work equations at run time (the middle of play), though.

[Crypt]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

So' date=' I would agree that the effects of a terminal velocity fall would be similar to the effects of a move-through by something massive traveling at (terminal velocity) where the impacted target is almost instantly accelerated to the same velocity, but otherwise not so much. It is not just the impact or the area of the impact but also the effect of rapid acceleration that makes stopping at the end of a fall so very unpleasant.[/quote']

 

 

Actually the truck will not be stopped (not even slowed) by the human body so only a part of the total energy would be transferred. (something like the one needed to accelerate the mass of the character at the speed of the truck.)

Maybe this is what you meant ?

[Sean Waters]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Actually the truck will not be stopped (not even slowed) by the human body so only a part of the total energy would be transferred. (something like the one needed to accelerate the mass of the character at the speed of the truck.)

Maybe this is what you meant ?

 

 

I just meant that falls and move-throughs are not necessarily analogous. Certainly if a normal human gets hit by a MAC truck doing 130 mph it will be similar in effect to a terminal velocity fall, but:

 

1. Not all move-throughs are like that, but the calculation in Hero is always the same

2. Not all target's are normal humans, and some characters would not move at all in those circumstances

3. A MAC truck has a considerable STR to bring to the party that a fall lacks (although I've always thought you should take extra damage based on the STR it would take to lift your mass eg +2d6 damage for a normal human).

[Crypt]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

(although I've always thought you should take extra damage based on the STR it would take to lift your mass eg +2d6 damage for a normal human).

 

I think the opposite.

The glass of a car hitting a mosquito at 200km/h does not break. The impact is limited by the mass of the insect (= the energy needed to move it at 200 km/h.)

When the truck hits the character (let's say he's a human) it does not tranfer all his energy to the character (that's why it's not stopped.) Like the mosquito the character does not suffer all the energy but that's enough to crush him and the truck continue on his way.

 

As you said when a falling body hit the ground it's stopped. So it takes all the energy (unlike the mosquito.) But this is where i disagree = falling DC should not be multiplied by 2. When two "bodies" impact the DC should be computed from the MASS of the lightest. In the case of the falling body the DC is computed from the body's mass, not from the Earth's one. There is only one reason = the body is lighter than the planet.

Movements are relative. If a god throws the planet to you you will take the same amount of damage.

 

So :

1. falling damages should not be multiplied.

2. use the lightest mass to compute DC of impact.

3. if 2. results in too low DCs in the average human point of view so it means this avrg human should have less BODY.

 

 

EDIT: about a piano falling on a character. Actually the piano falls on Earth and the unlucky character is between. The piano is stopped and all the energy is transferred. This means that the lightest mass is the one of the piano (compared to Earth's one), not the character's.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Maybe because people who are good at applied physics post raw equations without an explanation of what it means or how to do it. A lot of people aren't good at math and their eyes cross when people do what you just did. They may also feel as though they are being classified as stupid because its been declared simple' date=' but they didn't know the equation and don't know how to decipher it. They usually aren't dumb, but they didn't fill their science requirements with physics, either. Sometimes you need to [u']spell it out[/u]. Once you do they can do it. I'm not sure how exciting it is to sit down and work equations at run time (the middle of play), though.

I don't think it's that some people "aren't good at math". I think that they've been taught that "math is hard" and gradually get the message drummed into their heads that "math is too hard for you, so don't even bother thinking about it, just shut off your brain whenever you encounter anything that looks like math." It isn't necessarily their fault. Almost anyone can understand basic algebra very easily with a little effort and a sufficiently open mind - two things we usually expect from high school kids.

 

I don't expect everyone with a high school diploma to know calculus, but I do think they should know algebra.

 

Then again, many people seemingly deliberately attempt to erase from their minds as much as possible that they learned in school, as if it will never be useful again. This is their fault.

 

I remember reading this quote long ago, but I don't remember who it's from:

 

"Treat people as if they are what they ought to be, and you help them become what they are capable of being."

[bigbywolfe]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

I don't think it's that some people "aren't good at math". I think that they've been taught that "math is hard" and gradually get the message drummed into their heads that "math is too hard for you, so don't even bother thinking about it, just shut off your brain whenever you encounter anything that looks like math." It isn't necessarily their fault. Almost anyone can understand basic algebra very easily with a little effort and a sufficiently open mind - two things we usually expect from high school kids.

 

I don't expect everyone with a high school diploma to know calculus, but I do think they should know algebra.

 

Then again, many people seemingly deliberately attempt to erase from their minds as much as possible that they learned in school, as if it will never be useful again. This is their fault.

 

I remember reading this quote long ago, but I don't remember who it's from:

 

"Treat people as if they are what they ought to be, and you help them become what they are capable of being."

 

I think that is over harsh, even though you are trying to be gentle. I’m not good at math. It’s not because “math is hard” or because anyone ever made me feel like I was too dumb to get it. I simply don’t do math quickly, and don’t do it well in my head. On the other hand I could write 2 page reports on books I read 5 years previous without reviewing them and pull As and Bs in a college class. Some people are truly better at some things than others.

 

Also, I took Algebra I and II. I passed. This:

y = (1/2) g t^2

t = sqrt(2 g y)

still means jack snot to me.

[Manic Typist]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Wait... shouldn´t this be a very simple, pull straight from the book sort of answer?

 

 

Can someone explain to me why it shouldn´t just be a Move Through using the velocity achieved during the fall?

[prestidigitator]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

I don't think it's that some people "aren't good at math". I think that they've been taught that "math is hard" and gradually get the message drummed into their heads that "math is too hard for you, so don't even bother thinking about it, just shut off your brain whenever you encounter anything that looks like math." It isn't necessarily their fault. Almost anyone can understand basic algebra very easily with a little effort and a sufficiently open mind - two things we usually expect from high school kids.

 

I don't expect everyone with a high school diploma to know calculus, but I do think they should know algebra.

 

Then again, many people seemingly deliberately attempt to erase from their minds as much as possible that they learned in school, as if it will never be useful again. This is their fault.

 

I remember reading this quote long ago, but I don't remember who it's from:

 

"Treat people as if they are what they ought to be, and you help them become what they are capable of being."

 

That's generally been my experience too. I NEVER try to "talk down" to people. If I seem to, it's certainly not my intent. But I firmly believe that just about ANYONE can learn math and physics. Heck, I think we should be starting to teach calculus in elementary school. Explained right, it can be as easy as using your coffee maker, and just as addictive (and no, I'm not saying we should caffeinate our school children ). I have a great deal of confidence in the intelligence of all people. Less confidence in their motivation. Their fault or not I cannot say.