Pain Ray

[garlic]

The military has a new weapon that they haven't fielded yet that is intended for crowd control. It's a microwave beam intended to heat up the water under your skin and cause pain that feels like burning. However, the effect is short lived, as soon as you're out of the area of effect of the ray you don't feel the pain any more. So the pain ray is intended to make people flee so that the pain goes away. How would you build something like this?

 

Here's my first guess. I'm not entirely happy with it.

 

36 Pain Ray: Mental Illusions 12d6 (Human class of minds), Area Of Effect (25" Cone; +1), No Normal Defense (Faraday shield; +1) (180 Active Points); Based on CON (Defense: ED; -1), OIF Bulky (-1), Mandatory Effect EGO +20 (Must Always Achieve Particular Effect: skin feels like pain / burning; -3/4), Costs END To Maintain (Full END Cost; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), Limited By Senses Touch Group (-1/4)

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Pain Ray

 

Stun Drain, all points recover after X amount of time is how I'd do it.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Pain Ray

 

You knew when I first read the title of this thread, I thought it said "Palin Ray"

[Utech]

Re: Pain Ray

 

Why are you not happy with your first guess? It's a decent build.

 

I'd also consider building it as Change Environment. When activated, the weapon forces all in the path of the beam to make successful CON (or EGO?) rolls. A failed roll means that you have to get out of the path of the beam as quickly as you can.

 

Doing STUN damage definitely seems to be going the wrong way. The weapon in question does not do any STUN damage as HERO defines STUN. People struck by the beam cannot be Stunned or KOed by it.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Pain Ray

 

Why are you not happy with your first guess? It's a decent build.

 

I'd also consider building it as Change Environment. When activated, the weapon forces all in the path of the beam to make successful CON (or EGO?) rolls. A failed roll means that you have to get out of the path of the beam as quickly as you can.

 

Doing STUN damage definitely seems to be going the wrong way. The weapon in question does not do any STUN damage as HERO defines STUN. People struck by the beam cannot be Stunned or KOed by it.

 

If you experience enough pain, you'll find it hard to think (stunned) or pass out (KO).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Pain Ray

 

You knew when I first read the title of this thread' date=' I thought it said "Palin Ray" [/quote']

 

Well, that's an INT drain, don'tcha know *wink wink*

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Pain Ray

 

So the pain ray is intended to make people flee so that the pain goes away. How would you build something like this?

 

This is a classic problem of building stuff in HERO. There is the name, the effect and the intent of the power.

 

You describe SFX - microwaves that cause pain; the intent - to make people flee until the pain goes away; and then your build - a mental attack based on CON that makes people feel pain.

 

Now, your build replicates the SFX to make people feel pain. There is nothing there to make them run away unless the players or GM decide that those affected will run away.

 

You might decide, instead, to make them feel scared but again there is nothing that makes them do so.

 

The intent is to make them run away. I would probably use a single command Mind Control instead (Fly, you fools!) with the ability to over-ride by making a CON roll, or a STUN roll which should get increasingly difficult the longer the person remains within the area of effect - so I would ladle on a change environment that increased the penalty to the Mind Control the longer anyone remained within it...

 

 

Doc

[Utech]

Re: Pain Ray

 

If you experience enough pain' date=' you'll find it hard to think (stunned) or pass out (KO).[/quote']

 

Won't argue it with you. I'll just say the weapon in question does not make it hard to think or cause people to pass out. Thus it does not do STUN damage.

[garlic]

Re: Pain Ray

 

This is a classic problem of building stuff in HERO. There is the name, the effect and the intent of the power.

 

You describe SFX - microwaves that cause pain; the intent - to make people flee until the pain goes away; and then your build - a mental attack based on CON that makes people feel pain.

 

Now, your build replicates the SFX to make people feel pain. There is nothing there to make them run away unless the players or GM decide that those affected will run away.

That was partly intentional -- there's nothing in a pain ray that makes you run away either as far as I can tell, just like tear gas doesn't make you run away.

 

The intent is to make them run away. I would probably use a single command Mind Control instead (Fly, you fools!) with the ability to over-ride by making a CON roll, or a STUN roll which should get increasingly difficult the longer the person remains within the area of effect - so I would ladle on a change environment that increased the penalty to the Mind Control the longer anyone remained within it...

 

This sounds like the right sort of idea, except it looks like change environment penalties can't accumulate according to page 137 of 5er. But 2 powers, one making them susceptible to the other makes sense -- with the pain ray making you more susceptible to the guy with the bullhorn telling you to disperse.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pain Ray

 

**Double post**

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pain Ray

 

If the idea is incapacitation, specifically because of pain, try this:

 

Entangle 3d6, 3 DEF (Stops A Given Sense Normal Hearing, Stops A Given Sense Normal Sight), Takes No Damage From Attacks All Attacks (+1/2), Based On EGO Combat Value (Mental Defense applies; +1) (100 Active Points); Based on CON (Defense: ED; -1)

 

It is a 'Based on CON' entangle that makes you blind and deaf for the duration. You could add a limitation that the effect stops when the 'gun' is switched off. In addition if you make it AoE and continuous, maybe reducing the effect a little:

Entangle 1d6, 2 DEF (Stops A Given Sense Normal Hearing, Stops A Given Sense Normal Sight), Takes No Damage From Attacks All Attacks (+1/2), Based On EGO Combat Value (Mental Defense applies; +1), Continuous (+1), Area Of Effect (18" Cone; +1) (112 Active Points); Based on CON (Defense: ED; -1)

 

...then the pain builds up (you add +1 Body for each additional entangle that hits).

I'm not sure if you need to make it NND (doesn't feel pain) - technically defences apply tot his build, but entangle is not normally affected by defences - I'd say it is irrelevant, but I may be wrong.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Pain Ray

 

I'd make it a limitation rather than an advantage on the power, the 'only against beings capable of feeling pain' thing.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Pain Ray

 

That was partly intentional -- there's nothing in a pain ray that makes you run away either as far as I can tell' date=' just like tear gas doesn't make you run away. [/quote']

 

But if you are trying to accomplish something in HERO then you force that effect and allow something to negate it. You will not run away from the pain if you are tough enough, not run out of the tear gas if your lungs are carbon steel. If you are asking players to roleplay it then they will generally do so when the stakes are low and become much tougher when the stakes are high.

 

I prefer to see whether the characters rather than the players are willing to make the characters suffer.

 

 

 

This sounds like the right sort of idea' date=' except it looks like change environment penalties can't accumulate according to page 137 of 5er. But 2 powers, one making them susceptible to the other makes sense -- with the pain ray making you more susceptible to the guy with the bullhorn telling you to disperse.[/quote']

 

If you dont want to handwave the change environment (and it is a small handwave) the second power should be a cumulative addition to the main power.

 

 

Doc

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Pain Ray

 

This sounds like the right sort of idea' date=' except it looks like change environment penalties can't accumulate according to page 137 of 5er. But 2 powers, one making them susceptible to the other makes sense -- with the pain ray making you more susceptible to the guy with the bullhorn telling you to disperse.[/quote']

 

That would be a bonus to the Presence Attack of the guy with the bullhorn, for performing a violent action.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Pain Ray

 

That would be a bonus to the Presence Attack of the guy with the bullhorn' date=' for performing a violent action.[/quote']

 

Nice spot. Very simple power as well - +xD6 PRE Attack....

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pain Ray

 

Pain causes panic, as does tear gas - you can not simply ignore it until you pass out, so there should be a mechanical system for emulating the effect. A player knows that if the character is int he middle of an AoE he may as well run toward the attacker as away, so will do - in reality he does not have the advantage of analysis - his priority is simply to deal with the immediate need.

 

The above post by Crosshair Collie made me think:why not build it as a PRE attack?

50 point PRE attack resisted by EGO or CON (not PRE) +1/4 (it is not much of a disadvantage as CON is usually pretty high anyway), doesn't work against those immune or highly resistant to pain (-1/4): 50 points (62 active)

 

You could also do it as a CON based mind control, possibly a cumulative one: run away! -

 

Mind Control 4d6, Cumulative (48 points; +3/4), Area Of Effect (8" Cone; +1) (55 Active Points); Set Effect (Run Away!; -1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Can resist with CON rather than EGO if that is higher; -1/4)

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Pain Ray

 

I am in total agreement with Doc and Sean about building the effect you want rather than assuming that microwave must be an EB, but if you are microwaving people, will you not eventually do physical damage by boiling the water in their skin? Of course if it never goes that far there is no point building it that way.

 

On a related note, I think that doing STN damage is not an altogether inappropriate way to model pain. The more painful an injury the more likely the victim will pass out or go into shock. It may not be the best way to model the microwave gun, but it shouldn't be ignored. I once had an evil mentalist character who did not have inherently powerful attacks (he was basically a normal physically), but could mentally boost the pain inflicted by them so as to do more damage. Likewise, there are official builds for Killing Attacks with Increased STN Multiplier with the rationale that they inflict particularly painful injuries.

[DocMan]

Re: Pain Ray

 

Wouldn't it be easier to just define this as a Change Environment power with the SFX that people are in pain and want to get away? OCV/DCV penalty optional.

 

Doc

[Utech]

Re: Pain Ray

 

Wouldn't it be easier to just define this as a Change Environment power with the SFX that people are in pain and want to get away? OCV/DCV penalty optional.

 

Doc

 

I'm with you or you're with me. Whichever way, Change Environment makes the most sense for modeling what you want the pain ray to do.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pain Ray

 

Change environment can not dictate behaviour and is generally a poor choice for a power that causes damage. Your GM might allow: Change Environment (target area to area people don't want to be in), but I wouldn't, as I think it goes way beyond what the power is set up to do. You might even get away with a characteristic roll (CON roll or leave area, same rules as DEX roll or fall over) but, again, I think that is going too far. Others may not

 

As I understand the idea of a pain ray, the sensation is so overwhelming that you can really think about nothing more than getting away from it and, presumably, it has a 'pain gradient' - the closer you get to the source the more it hurts - making your choice of direction obvious.

 

Thinking about it it might be an idea to build that (with whatever effect) as a cone explosion - it will hurt more the closer you get to the projector.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Pain Ray

 

...

 

As I understand the idea of a pain ray, the sensation is so overwhelming that you can really think about nothing more than getting away from it and, presumably, it has a 'pain gradient' - the closer you get to the source the more it hurts - making your choice of direction obvious.

 

Thinking about it it might be an idea to build that (with whatever effect) as a cone explosion - it will hurt more the closer you get to the projector.

 

Here is one way to build it:

 

40 Pain Ray: Suppress STUN 8d6, 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 Hour (+0), Invisible to Sight Group (+1/2), Explosion (Cone; -1 DC/4"; +1) (100 Active Points); OAF (-1), No Range (-1/2) - END=[1 cc]

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pain Ray

 

Here is one way to build it:

 

40 Pain Ray: Suppress STUN 8d6, 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 Hour (+0), Invisible to Sight Group (+1/2), Explosion (Cone; -1 DC/4"; +1) (100 Active Points); OAF (-1), No Range (-1/2) - END=[1 cc]

 

 

Nice: although it doesn't prevent you constinuing to charge the projector, it gets nasty the closer you get, so most people will choose not to - and the effects disappear as soon as it is switched off.

 

Moreover, because it is suppress, the effects do not add if you stay there longer - a normal person could not get to the projector as the effect would render them unconscious - but a superhero or extraorfdinary normal might.

[Utech]

Re: Pain Ray

 

Change environment can not dictate behaviour and is generally a poor choice for a power that causes damage.

 

Change Environment is often used to dictate a character's physical actions. See the ice sheet example in the book. In this case, the pain ray forces a character to move away from the pain ray if they fail a CON or EGO Roll (or what have you).

 

The pain ray does not cause damage.

[Utech]

Re: Pain Ray

 

Here is one way to build it:

 

40 Pain Ray: Suppress STUN 8d6, 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 Hour (+0), Invisible to Sight Group (+1/2), Explosion (Cone; -1 DC/4"; +1) (100 Active Points); OAF (-1), No Range (-1/2) - END=[1 cc]

 

No good. The pain ray does not cause people to become Stunned nor does it ever render people unconscious. It simply makes them try to get out of the path of the pain ray.

 

Mechanically, Suppress STUN would not do what the pain ray actually does.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pain Ray

 

No good. The pain ray does not cause people to become Stunned nor does it ever render people unconscious. It simply makes them try to get out of the path of the pain ray.

 

Mechanically, Suppress STUN would not do what the pain ray actually does.

 

I doubt it has been tested as a continuous effect for any length of time: the effects are supposed to be quite breathtaking - I'd imagine a quick zap and you're out of there - a stun suppress - especially an explosion type - does that nicely. I imagine that sufficient pain could cause someone to pass out and maybe even kill, despite the lack of obvious tissue damage, and if, for instance, you couldn't leave the area - your feet are entangled/stuck to the ground - what effect then? The device is probably not designed for more than a few quick bursts not continual exposure.

 

What the pain ray does is cause pain. One way to simulate that in Hero is to take some stun damage or a similar effect. Part of the effect is that you basically can not do anything but leave - change environment may be enough to get you to move out of an area - although IMO the example of the ice sheet is dodgy for a number of reasons* - but it couldn't, for instance, make you do that to the exclusion of all else. That's why a number of possible builds have been presented by various posters. Probably the most complete solutuon is a PRE attack, but any of them would produce an appropriate effect.

 

Drawing on something mentioned above - how would CE interact with a character who can not voluntarily leave the area? CE is not a potent enough effect to incapacitate a character, so from that POV it doesn't seem like that good a fit.

 

 

 

*All the other examples use combat modifiers, whereas this example does something different - you get a DEX roll at a paid for penalty or you fall over. IMO what 'ice sheet' should do is have paid for penalties if you do fall over by failing a DEX roll. Mind you, CE is a 'filler' power like EDM and transform - deliberately left a bit vague in case you can not think of a better way of doing it.