I need help with a Magic System

[nexus]

I need some help building the requirements for a magic system for an up coming Fantasy game. I'm not claiming that its original but I thought it was an interesting take on "Fire and forget" style D and D magic.

 

Spells (Weaves) are patterns of will and occult energy that require great concentration, study of symbols, formula and focusing gestures to create. To side step this lengthy casting time, a mage may prep her spells before hand essentially running through most of the creation process (referred to Weaving) except for the crucial final stages and store the pattern in their mind for later use. When the time comes, the mage finishes the casting and fully unleashes the spells effects (creates the fireball, casts the charm, etc) which usually requires the same as normally activating and using the Power involved.

 

Once this is done, the mage has two options: They can recreate the pattern with study and concentration for later use OR they can cast the spell directly, running through the entire ritual (which often takes a minute or more). Speed Casting (Cutting the Weave) is risky, if the mage flubs it, bad things can happen, Untying the Weave (lengthy casting) is much slower but not as dangerous even if flubbed there is no danger of backlash in anything but the most powerful or experimental magics. Mages can use the lengthy method at any time they have access to their books and scrolls. Short casting requires having the required prep time to set up the spells.

 

How would you best represent this in mechanical terms?

[jwpacker]

Re: I need help with a Magic System

 

Will each spell be "learned" as a distinct power?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: I need help with a Magic System

 

Variable Limitation

[Split Decision]

Re: I need help with a Magic System

 

I made a magician once who used variable limitations, which included focus, incantations of either duration, side effects, RSR and gestures. And... it didn't work out as well as I'd hoped. But it was workable to some extent.

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: I need help with a Magic System

 

This sound exactly like the Delayed Effect Advantage. You set the number of spells a PC can have "stored" (an example is INT/5). The Advantage allows you go to through all the lengthy prep (Incantations, Gestures, etc.) and either use it then or store it in a slot for later use.

 

See 5ER pg. 255

[Killer Shrike]

Re: I need help with a Magic System

 

Delayed Effect is broken. Anything you can do w/ Delayed Effect can be done better with Trigger without the totally borked math of DE.

 

I posted a lengthy breakdown of DE years ago; a board search would likely turn it up.

[JmOz]

Re: I need help with a Magic System

 

Variable Limitation

 

That was my first thought, side effects or Extra time being the only two lims allowed in it

 

All powers need to have the triggered advantage on it (or delayed effect by your prefrence).

 

Other limitations to taste

[Markdoc]

Re: I need help with a Magic System

 

Concur with KS: Trigger.

 

I've used a similar system, modelled closely on Vancian magic in my FH game with some success. Basically what you are describing is a spell with a long preparation time (the extra time limitation) and a trigger (an arcane gesture or word). If the character wants to use a spell immediately, he can run through the preparation and then just use the trigger immediately.

 

In my game, the spells all required spellbooks, which were universal foci, so anyone who got heir hands on the book, could (in theory) use the spells, but if they lack skill, are likely to futz things up.

 

The system looked like:

 

Spells can be bought either singly or as slots in multipowers.

All spells require the following build:

Aid 1d6, Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Turn or more to reset; +1/4)

1 Charge (-2), Extra Time (1 Minute, -1 1/2), IIF Bulky, extremely expensive/difficult to replace (-3/4), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Costs Mana (-1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points; -1/4), Side Effects (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) Total limitations -7 1/2

 

Essentially, a wizard reads up his spells, "fixes" them in his brain (this takes some time) and then can releases the stored magical energy with a word or gesture (zero phase action: trigger must be defined when power is bought).

 

There are several points to note about a such a system.

1) Most of these limitations - not "one charge" but everything else can be applied to the reserves of a multipower, making magic extremely cheap, and therefore extremely powerful. This is countered by the fact, that a wizard is very inflexible: he needs to decide what spells he is carrying in advance - and if he wants more than one use of a specific spell, the "one use" limitation means that he needs to buy extra slots. That's not a big deal since ultra slots are dirt cheap: 1-2 points for up over 100 active points

2) Spellbooks are listed as IIF foci, because the wizard doesn't need it with him to cast spells (meaning he cannot readily lose it in combat). But he does need it to regain spells once cast. If he loses it, he's basically powerless until he a) gets it back or writes a new one - a process which would take months. Most wizards therefore keep their books at home, really, really well guarded. Since it's a universal focus, if someone does steal it, they can use it.

 

This probably isn't exactly what you want, but you could build what you want out of it pretty readily.

 

cheers, Mark

[prestidigitator]

Re: I need help with a Magic System

 

I think Delayed Effect CAN be okay, but I don't like the standard limits on number of preparations and such. I think as long as you gut and replace those, you can come up with something workable. For example, it sounds like this system would work reasonably by limiting these particular spellcasters to no more than one instance of each particular spell prepared ahead of time. You could possibly add additional limitations, such as losing prepared spells when the caster sleeps, or putting an additional AP limit on the total of the prepared spells, or something like that.

 

On the other hand, Variable Limitations strikes me as a good alternative. Maybe try some examples with either approach and see which seems to work best. Maybe even some kind of hybrid will be your best choice. A Naked Delayed Effect could be interesting....

[Kraven Kor]

Re: I need help with a Magic System

 

I'll try to find my old magic rules, if they still exist.

 

I basically had it set up as a Multipower, where each slot had to have at least X in limitations, picked from Gestures, Incantations, Focus, Charges (expendable material components), etc.

 

It worked fairly well, for the 6 or 7 game sessions I managed to have before the group fell apart again.

[nexus]

Re: I need help with a Magic System

 

Let me apologize in advance for any stupid question but I haven't use the Trigger Advantage very much at all.

 

Powers activated by Trigger are effectively 0 phase actions, right? That was an issue I had with using Trigger for the effect. When a mage casts a spell it takes the normal required "time", a half phase action for a attack spell, for instance.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: I need help with a Magic System

 

Generally a Trigger activates when its triggering condition is met.

 

Its a 0 Phase by default (thus on a character's Phase), but can be upgraded to an action that takes no time for +1/4 (thus whenever it happens)

 

You could, if you chose, define the triggering condition as taking a 1/2 or Full Phase Attack Action. I would reduce the total Advantage by -1/4 in such a case (similar to a Trigger that isnt under the character's control).

[nexus]

Re: I need help with a Magic System

 

Generally a Trigger activates when its triggering condition is met.

 

Its a 0 Phase by default (thus on a character's Phase), but can be upgraded to an action that takes no time for +1/4 (thus whenever it happens)

 

You could, if you chose, define the triggering condition as taking a 1/2 or Full Phase Attack Action. I would reduce the total Advantage by -1/4 in such a case (similar to a Trigger that isnt under the character's control).

 

Thank you.

[nexus]

Re: I need help with a Magic System

 

First, thanks for all the input. Delayed Effect works well except for one aspect. Quick Casting is risky (has Side effects) while long casting isn't, you fail you just fail.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: I need help with a Magic System

 

First' date=' thanks for all the input. Delayed Effect works well except for one aspect. Quick Casting is risky (has Side effects) while long casting isn't, you fail you just fail.[/quote']

 

I would limit the Delayed Effect advantage. Essentially Delayed Effect is an advantage because you can decide to use the power now or later on. In this case if you use it now then you are doing something risky - so the advantage is not effectively worth as much.

 

Apply the Side Effects limitation to the value of the Delayed Effect advantage. If someone tries to use the power quickly and it fails then they take the hit....

 

 

Doc

[Killer Shrike]

Re: I need help with a Magic System

 

When you get right down to it, Delayed Effect is really just a lame attempt at a Power Framework using Modifiers instead of a higher level Framework.

 

I found this old post on why I hate Delayed Effect:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=904473&postcount=152

 

And so you don't have to follow the link, Ill repeat it:

 

 

Everything you can do w/ Delayed Effect you can do better with a properly defined Trigger, the mechanics of Trigger a) only effect the design of the particular Power Construct they are part of, and further seperate Powers can have different variations of Trigger allowing more diverse modeling of effects.

 

The exact functionality of Delayed Effect is managed by an "At Will" (+1/2) Trigger, and more narrow Triggers are also possible where they make more sense.

 

Additionally, not germane in a 1 Charge per Spell System, but very noteworthy in other Magic Systems, Triggers can be self resetting which allows for some very cool Power builds.

 

Another issue I have w/ Delayed Effect is that it is, in many ways, more of a Limitation than an Advantage, yet it is priced as an Advantage. Consider the subtext -- you can only use Delayed Effect if the GM has put an (arbitrary) limit on how many Spells a character can have per day. Looked at the other way, to use Delayed Effect as an intrical part of a Magic System they must first define an arbitrary limit on how many Spells per day a person can cast -- for no point rebate. Then, to tap into it, those spell casters must further apply a SCALING advantage to their Spells. So basically they are paying for DRAWBACK. Thats ANTIHERO in my book.

 

 

Further, to illustrate the mathematical stupidity of Delayed Effect, unless the GM sets some completely flat number that applies globaly (which has its own logical shortcomings), you create a state where from spellcaster to spellcaster the cost of the same Spell and potentially other abilities can have widely different costs.

 

Lets pretend that the limit is the defaulted INT/5 assumption. Based on that, a character with 10 INT can slot up two Spells at a time, which I call "floating" -- ie, they can have two Spells for which they have already conducted the various prepartions for (Incant, Gesture, Concentrate, etc). However, if they want to cast a spell on the fly, they have to open up one of those slots.

 

 

Example 1:

 

Im going to do this with simple math and not get into minutiae of Power builds....lets pretend our spellcaster is named Wizzo and he has 10 Spells, and just to make the math easy we'll pretend like they all have the same Active Points and a Real Cost over -1 (ie a cost equal to half the Active Points).

 

 

 

All the Spells have 50 AP and 25 RC. Assuming that these Spells had no other Limitations on them aside from 1 level of Delayed Effect for +1/4, they all have 40 point available for base effects.

 

At any given time Wizzo can float two of them, and to cast one of the others he must first deactivate one of those Spells. This "privelege" has cost him some value judgement of between 50 character points (5 extra RC per Spell) on one end and a 100 Active Points of effect on the other. This is in addition to the simple cost of the Spells in the first place which they can only use two at a time, mind you.

 

Without the arbitary limit of INT/5 Spells (for which the character gets no discounting or break), the same number of character points would be far (far far) more effective. But we'll ignore that for now.

 

Now Wizzo wants to be able to float four Spells at once -- he must either refactor all of the Spells or else raise his INT.

 

To refactor all 10 Spells to a +1/2 Delayed Effect costs Wizzo an extra 50 character points for very little net benefit. To raise his INT costs a mere 10 points. Granted, it may not make sense that Wizzo just went from being kind of a dull fellow to being more attentive and alert than a wolverine, but whatever -- logic is not this advantages strong point.

 

Raising his INT 10 points over max cost 20 points, so basically it goes like this:

 

Doubling via Delayed Effect: each doubling costs +5 points per Spell, or 50 character points per doubling. At 10 INT it costs 50 to get to 4, but at 20 INT it costs 50 to get to 8. So we'll assume this is done -- we are at +60 points for 8 Spells. 16 Spells costs another +50, so a total of +110 gets you to 16 Spells.

 

Doubling via INT: once the character has hit NCM, it costs 20 points per 10 INT. Spending 110 points on INT instead of Delayed Effect gets you to 70 INT, which is 14 Spells and a really nice PER check.

 

So right off the bat, we're seeing a lot of points being thrown around which dont do anything of themselves (the Spells, you'll note, still have their paltry 40 points of effect and are the same 10 Spells we started with). Further the sheer scale of what it takes to improve the casters abilities, either by paying more and more for the same crappy boring abilities or jacking INT up well past absurd levels. So lots of overhead, limited character growth, and a meta concept pushing a characters build into an extremely skewed direction.

 

I could go on and on at different point scales and mixing up the number and variagation of the Spell set, but I think Ive demonstrated the central flaw here sufficiently.

 

 

Example 2:

 

We know how Wizzo is designed; 10 Spells of 50 AP and 25 RC with Delayed Effect for 2 Spells and 20 INT.

 

Now we meet Starro, another spellcaster of the same sort. Starro has 5 smaller Spells with 45 AP and 30 RC, 10 INT, and Delayed Effect x 2 for 4 Spells (ignore the character designer going with concept over the easy +10 INT which this modifier makes him an idiot for not using).

 

Wizzo wants to learn one of Starro's spells. However, he only needs Delayed Effect x 1 so a) the Power needs to be refactored and it costs Wizzo 8 points less for the EXACT SAME EFFECT.

 

Starro wants to learn one of Wizzo's spells. However he needs Delayed Effect x 2 so a) the Power needs to be refactored and it costs Starro 5 points more for the EXACT SAME EFFECT (the same 5 points that would give him an INT of 15 and increase his spellcasting capacity, but whatever).

 

 

To take it a little further, both Wizzo and Starro have relatively simple Spells with no other Advantage than Delayed Effect on them. Now lets get specific. Wizzo has an 8d6 Energy Blast Spell, Starro has a 2d6 RKA Spell. They meet Stupundo who has 5 INT and a 6d6 EB Spell with Delayed Effect x8, and -1 in Limitations -- so 30 base, 60 AP, 30 RC.

 

Stupundo teaches both Starro and Wizzo his spell. It costs Starro 25 points and Wizzo 19 points.

 

Again, I could go on showing more extreme swings, but I think the point is clear -- because this model is Advantage based and scaling, variations between the relative AP totals of spells as well as the effect of larger and smaller Delayed Effect doublings between characters have a huge swing on the cost to effect ratio between any two spellcasters. I.e. -- the COST EFFECTIVENESS of the exact same abilities possesed by characters using the Delayed Effect model vary widely.

 

 

 

Of course in reality all characters in such a system would be practically forced by darwinism to have the highest possible value in whatever characteristic(s) the number of spells per day was based on, for both yet more costs and also the complete loss of either individual identity and of course suspension of disbelief. And further, even when this does happen (which is bad), the bizarre math inequities are still there (which is worse).

 

 

Personally, I find this to be absolutely borked, but whatever; other peoples mileage may vary.

[Sean Waters]

Re: I need help with a Magic System

 

I need some help building the requirements for a magic system for an up coming Fantasy game. I'm not claiming that its original but I thought it was an interesting take on "Fire and forget" style D and D magic.

 

Spells (Weaves) are patterns of will and occult energy that require great concentration, study of symbols, formula and focusing gestures to create. To side step this lengthy casting time, a mage may prep her spells before hand essentially running through most of the creation process (referred to Weaving) except for the crucial final stages and store the pattern in their mind for later use. When the time comes, the mage finishes the casting and fully unleashes the spells effects (creates the fireball, casts the charm, etc) which usually requires the same as normally activating and using the Power involved.

 

Once this is done, the mage has two options: They can recreate the pattern with study and concentration for later use OR they can cast the spell directly, running through the entire ritual (which often takes a minute or more). Speed Casting (Cutting the Weave) is risky, if the mage flubs it, bad things can happen, Untying the Weave (lengthy casting) is much slower but not as dangerous even if flubbed there is no danger of backlash in anything but the most powerful or experimental magics. Mages can use the lengthy method at any time they have access to their books and scrolls. Short casting requires having the required prep time to set up the spells.

 

How would you best represent this in mechanical terms?

 

Trigger is probably the best way to do this in straight Hero terms (especially if you don't like Delayed Effect - although cost is less of an issue if it is a campaign requirement.

 

OTOH, if this is how magic works in your game there are other methods - and so long as everyone uses the same system, there should not be any cost issues.

 

For example:

 

Every 20 active points (or part thereof) in a power requires a 1 point perk to memorise for later release (weaving).

 

It takes 1 minute to 'memorise' 20 active points of power (or part thereof).

 

If you cast a spell that is not memorised, you have to make a magic skill roll and it takes 1 minute per 40 active points in the spell to cast. You can reduce that to 1 turn per 40 active points if you take -2 on your roll, or 1 phase per 40 active points if you take -4.

 

A failed roll does (MoFx2) d6, which is considered NND (Does BODY).

 

MoF is margin of failure i.e. if you needed to roll 11 and rolled 13 you have a MoF of 2, and so take 4d6 (NND Does Body) backlash damage.

 

That's the thing about Hero - you can use the basic mechanics without necessarily having to use the character building rules for everything.

 

You only need character building rules when people want to do things unique to that character - if it applies to everyone, make it a campaign rule.

[Sean Waters]

Re: I need help with a Magic System

 

The advantage of a campaign rule is that you do not have to build every spell with the same set of limitations - leaving your spell sheets much cleaner