You. Make. The Call.

[Vox]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

I think you ought to disallow this build, but for a different reason than others have presented. As somebody new to HERO myself, I feel obliged to suggest that allowing him to play a character with such obvious potential for powergaming will give him the wrong idea about how the system should be played. He'll spend a lot of his time trying to figure out ways to unleash that 18d6 attack without risk, or how to use an invulnerable force field to spring traps and investigate dangerous areas without risk to himself.

 

In general, I think it will give him the wrong idea about how the gaming experience should go.

 

~Gabriel

[Alibear]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

I'd allow it, I think. He'll be weak in so many other ways so not at all indestructible. If he uses that massive TK hammer to full effect he'll have no defences so that is fair, I think.

 

I would like to see the character as a whole, but yes, I'd allow it.

[BNakagawa]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

Nasty build.

 

I hope the other players don't mind when he gets mind controlled to attack their characters from surprise. I suspect his EGO and mental defenses will be a little underwhelming...

[Rune]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

I wouldn't allow it. That Force Wall is just about indestructible for a standard 75 point campaign. The potential highs are too high.

[Certified]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

So just looking at the numbers involved I thought I would play around with it some keeping the 215 total in mind.

 

Variant 1: End Saver

120 Telekinetic Powers: Multipower, 120-point reserve, all slots Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (150 Active Points); all slots IIF (-1/4)

19m Telekinesis (73 STR), Fine Manipulation (120 Active Points); IIF (-1/4)

19m Telekinetic Shield: Force Wall (22 PD/22 ED; 5" long and 2" tall) (120 Active Points); IIF (-1/4)

19m Personal TK Shield: Force Field (60 PD/60 ED) (120 Active Points); IIF (-1/4)

19m TK Flight: Flight 42", x256 Noncombat (119 Active Points); IIF (-1/4)

 

Final Cost: 196. In this build the Active Point limit drops from 150 to 120 to compensate for the Reduced End Advantage. Each of the powers running at their top end would Cost 6 End so although exhausting in the human range of Endurance not overwhelming. The upper end is still quite powerful and if the player is not running anything else it could become discouraging. At least if they are the turtling type and keep a PD/ED of 60 around most of the time.

 

Variant 2: Mostly Ultra Slots

132 Telekinetic Powers: Multipower, 165-point reserve, (165 Active Points); all slots IIF (-1/4)

4u Telekinesis (30 STR), Fine Manipulation (55 Active Points); IIF (-1/4)

4u Telekinetic Shield: Force Wall (9 PD/9 ED; 5" long and 2" tall) (55 Active Points); IIF (-1/4)

4u Personal TK Shield: Force Field (27 PD/28 ED) (55 Active Points); IIF (-1/4)

26m TK Flight: Flight 48", x256 Noncombat, Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4) (164 Active Points); IIF (-1/4)

 

Final Cost: 170. This build ups the total value of the Multipower but cuts down the cost of the embedded powers significantly by switching them to ultra slots. In this build the character can operate all three of the non-movement powers simultaneously or fewer with the addition of a variable Speed flight. The powers no longer have a cringe worthy upper end although the Player may be upset with how weak some of the lower end powers might appear. If that is the case it would be possible to add in three more ultra slots at double strength such as:

8u Greater TK: Telekinesis (63 STR), Fine Manipulation (105 Active Points); IIF (-1/4)

8u Greater Telekinetic Shield: Force Wall (19 PD/19 ED; 5" long and 2" tall) (105 Active Points); IIF (-1/4)

8u Greater Personal TK Shield: Force Field (35 PD/35 ED), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (105 Active Points); IIF (-1/4)

 

Added Cost: 24. Revised Cost: 194. Although I would be leery of the Greater Personal TK Shield it's actual PD and ED are not blindingly high. Hopefully this should provide examples of what can be done with the Multipower and/or at least give an idea of what the in game power range or the original might lok like while trying to maintain multiple powers at once. Personally, I'm the set it and forget about it type and hate doing "in the field" power cost calculations.

 

Hope this helps.

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

No. Just No. For all the reasons already stated.

[Certified]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

As obvious as no is to some people it's surprising more have not tryed to come up with ways to keep the spirit of the multipower while bringing it down to a reasonable size.

[Alibear]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

As far as I can see the spirit of the MP is that he can have a big attack and no defence. No offence and a big defence or something in between. What's the problem exactly?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

I think his take was that he'd not often find much need to put full power into his force field' date=' that nine times out of ten, it would be more on the level of 25/25 than 75/75, but that, like many comic heroes, he could, at need, exceed everyone's expectations and do what needed doing by sacrificing in other areas while he's doing it.[/quote']

 

I foresee the character typically operating with a 60 STR TK and a 25/25 Force Field, leaving no movement power. A 9/9 or so Force Wall won't cut it defensively.

 

Part of the problem is the high AP cost of Telekinesis. An alternative approach may be to kep the TK at 90 STR, or roll it down to a level you're comfortable with in your game, add an EB (Telekinetic Strike) slot for use as a pure attack and tone down the maximum points available on the other slots to a level you have some comfort with.

 

The END problem needs to be addressed as well.

 

I'd be inclined to discuss what the player envisions this character doing. Does he understand the impact of these END costs? Does he understand how vulnerable he will be if the force field is off because he uses the full TK?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

Denied on DC/Defense cap violations.

[Egyptoid]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

so someone actually proposed such a boring MP?

 

thank you.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

As far as I can see the spirit of the MP is that he can have a big attack and no defence. No offence and a big defence or something in between. What's the problem exactly?

 

Even ignoring DC/Defense Caps, it's too swingy. If he gets himself into a position where he's largely immune to attack, he's going to overpower everybody and make the other PCs feel redundant because of his obscene attack power. If he's in a position where he has to uber-turtle, he becomes a burden to the other PCs because he can't meaningfully contribute.

 

This is why most characters, IME, have a small-to-medium sized EC for movement and defenses with a medium-to-large Multipower for attacks.

[jwpacker]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

Y'all wanted to see progress...

 

Val	Char	Cost
15	STR	5
23	DEX	39
20	CON	20
12	BODY	4
13	INT	3
18	EGO	16
15	PRE	5
10	COM	0

4/64	PD	1
4/64	ED	0
5	SPD	17
7	REC	0
50	END	5
30	STUN	0

6"	RUN	0
2"	SWIM	0
3"	LEAP	0
Characteristics Cost: 115

Cost	Power
100	Telekinetc Powers: Multipower, 120-point reserve, all slots Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (150 Active Points); all slots OIF (Diadem; -1/2)
15m	1)  Remote Hands: Telekinesis (70 STR), Fine Manipulation (115 Active Points); OIF (Diadem; -1/2)
16m	2)  Autolifting: Flight 50", Position Shift, x16 Noncombat (120 Active Points); OIF (Diadem; -1/2)
16m	3)  Personal Shield: Force Field (60 PD/60 ED) (120 Active Points); OIF (Diadem; -1/2)
16m	4)  Remote Shield: Force Wall (20 PD/20 ED; 5" long and 2" tall) (Opaque Sight Group) (120 Active Points); OIF (Diadem; -1/2)
15m	5)  Telekinetic Shove: Energy Blast 13d6, Double Knockback (+3/4) (114 Active Points); OIF (Diadem; -1/2)
Powers Cost: 178


Cost	Skill
3	Bureaucratics 12-
3	Conversation 12-
3	Deduction 12-
3	Electronics 12-
3	Inventor 12-
2	KS: Nanotechnology 11-
3	Mechanics 12-
2	SS:  Microelectronics 11-
2	SS:  Force Field Mechanics 11-
3	Security Systems 12-
3	Stealth 14-
Skills Cost: 30

Cost	Perk
11	Money:  Filthy Rich
Perks Cost: 11

Cost	Talent
3	Absolute Range Sense
3	Bump Of Direction
5	Eidetic Memory
5	Rapid Healing
Talents Cost: 16

Total Character Cost: 350

[Hyper-Man]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

re: applying Reduced END to the Multipower Reserve instead of individual slots.

 

I would recommend keeping the 150 reserve and adding Reduced END or some level of Variable Advantage to most if not all the slots.

 

You could also limit the active points of the individual slots down to more acceptable limits (90-100) to give the character some room to grow later on.

[Alibear]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

The 4 pd/ed thing means he has to hold some MP back for his defences or he'll be a greasy stain on the tarmac by the end of phase 12.

 

I still think I'd allow this character.

[jwpacker]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

That's where I'm leaning too, Alibear. The day this guy turns his FF down below some reasonable number is the day he decides he must, to use his full strength TK to keep a building from falling on a crowd of puppies.

[Ice9]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

I think the original design could be pretty interesting in play. Let's compare it to a more normal build - taking the TK and Force Wall in a Multipower, with the Force Field and Flight separate, all around 50-60p. There's not really a lot of tactics involved there - you always use the Force Field and Flight when in combat, you use TK or Force Wall depending, and that's it.

 

Now take the "unbalanced" version - every phase, you have an interesting trade-off between offense, defense, movement, and END. You can turtle amazingly well, but how long can you maintain it before running dry? You can bust out TK and Force Walls that few can handle, but going full force will leave you vulnerable to a 1-hit KO. With just four basic powers, you have as much strategy as many VPP users. And things like heroic sacrifices, pushing your limits to do what you have to? This build is all over that, inherently, no special rules needed.

 

That said, with 5 SPD/50 END, and a new player, the latest Reduced-END version is probably a good idea.

[Vulcan]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

I would probably tell the player that he should restrict his slots to 1/2 the points of the MP. So for the 150 point MP, 75 point slots wouldn't be too unbalancing and he could always have two up at full power, which would simplify playing the character enormously. Or if he needed to move and shoot, he'd need to take points off either FF or EB/TK...

 

That seems much more balanced to me.

[jwpacker]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

I would probably tell the player that he should restrict his slots to 1/2 the points of the MP. So for the 150 point MP' date=' 75 point slots wouldn't be too unbalancing [i']and[/i] he could always have two up at full power, which would simplify playing the character enormously. Or if he needed to move and shoot, he'd need to take points off either FF or EB/TK...

 

That seems much more balanced to me.

 

I think, on some level, the fact that his powers do top out in the 120 active point range makes him happy. I'm not sure how I feel just yet, but suspect it'll work itself out in the wash.

 

As for playability, this guy's a mathematician. I fully expect him to come prepared with a set of pre-set power levels he can easily shift through as the battle progresses.

[Warlocke]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

As for playability' date=' this guy's a mathematician. I fully expect him to come prepared with a set of pre-set power levels he can easily shift through as the battle progresses.[/quote']

 

Ya with those multi slots you are going to need to work out quite a few, I would think.

[Vox]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

The most game-breaking potential in that MP is the force wall. He can trap any single villain in a nearly impenetrable bubble. I would not want to GM with an ability like that waiting in the wings.

 

~Gabriel

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

My call is no. Character is too powerful for the limits I use: a TK str higher than what I let bricks have, defenses too high, movement that would give speedsters a run. No.

 

But it's not my game, maybe in your game it wouldn't be a deal breaker.

 

Oh, and the "but if he goes all offense he'll have no defense" is the arguement I would use to keep the player from using it. It's another munchkin excuse, along with "I'll only use it rarely" with 'rarely' being defined as every other phase.

[Warlocke]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

ok I was looking at the multi slots angle and I have a question:

 

lets assume he alots the following points from the reserve as

 

0 in TK

0 in Force wall

20 in Force Field = +10PD/+10 ED

72 in EB = 8d6 SIZE="1"](1d6 energy blast with a +3/4 power adder costs 9 points, right?)[/size]

28 in Flight = X" in flight

 

my question is how many inches in flight given the adders called out in the power slot? they should increase the cost of each inch I think.

[jwpacker]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

ok I was looking at the multi slots angle and I have a question:

 

lets assume he alots the following points from the reserve as

 

0 in TK

0 in Force wall

20 in Force Field = +10PD/+10 ED

72 in EB = 8d6 SIZE="1"](1d6 energy blast with a +3/4 power adder costs 9 points, right?)[/size]

28 in Flight = X" in flight

 

my question is how many inches in flight given the adders called out in the power slot? they should increase the cost of each inch I think.

 

I was under the understanding that the player can choose whether or not to spend any points on the adders or not. So, he can put those 28 points in as 14" of regular flight, or he could do 7" of flight, with the x4 NCM and Position Shift in place.

 

Herophiles, am I right about that?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

I think the same issues apply - he still has to choose a hefty tradeoff between damage and defense, which was why I would have gone with a straight TK EB, with no bells and whistles, to provide the ability to attack at campaign norms while maintaining campaign norm defenses.

 

Of course, I'm assuming the level of campaign norm.