Favorite 60-point Power Construction

[Lucius]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

Okay, I was working on a character and this came up. Yes, it's over by 7 pts, but....

 

Sidewalk Preaching: Summon 8 150-point Humans, Loyal (+1/2) (67 Active Points); Extra Time (20 Minutes, Character May Take No Other Actions, -2 3/4), No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; Usually much fewer and weaker than maximum possible; -1), Arrives Under Own Power (-1/2), Summoned Being Must Inhabit Locale (-1/2), Requires An Oratory Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points, RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. (crowd's average) EGO Roll contests; -1/2), Limited Power Tasks must be reasonable - within broad definitions of "reasonable." (Organizing a march to protest an unpopular policy is easy. Organizing a lynch mob would be -4 to the Oratory roll at least. Getting even one person to take their clothes off and streak down the street is probably not possible.; -1/4)

 

Feel free to respond here or privately. I'm working on a villain but this could be a heroic power too couldn't it?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Summon Palindromedary

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

Think of it this way: if you build an NND that does knockback, people who have the defense (say, wearing bright colored clothes, or standing on your head) won't feel a bit of the effect, and thus will suffer no knockback. It isn't that they have lots of defenses, its that the power its self has a loophole: have this defense and it does nothing. You can't deafen someone who already has no hearing. Lots of flash defense wouldn't protect you from the kb; that's the equivalent of the energy blast example you give.

 

The reason this happens is because of how the power is built not how the power is conceived. If you meant to build a loud shockwave, deafness won't matter - but you build that with an energy blast or telekinesis or some other such construct.

 

That doesn't stop the hearing flash clap power from being cool. It just has a loophole.

 

 

That argument doesn't make sense with the basic damage rules. Whether or not an Energy Blast or Killing Attack does Knockback to a target is completely independent of whether it will actually do any damage to the same target.

 

But powers (like Dispel or Flash) bought with the Does Knockback Advantage must achieve an effect past a defense before they can do Knockback? Why?

 

I have to respectfully disagree with Mr. Long on this particular ruling.

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

Okay, I was working on a character and this came up. Yes, it's over by 7 pts, but....

 

Sidewalk Preaching: Summon 8 150-point Humans, Loyal (+1/2) (67 Active Points); Extra Time (20 Minutes, Character May Take No Other Actions, -2 3/4), No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; Usually much fewer and weaker than maximum possible; -1), Arrives Under Own Power (-1/2), Summoned Being Must Inhabit Locale (-1/2), Requires An Oratory Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points, RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. (crowd's average) EGO Roll contests; -1/2), Limited Power Tasks must be reasonable - within broad definitions of "reasonable." (Organizing a march to protest an unpopular policy is easy. Organizing a lynch mob would be -4 to the Oratory roll at least. Getting even one person to take their clothes off and streak down the street is probably not possible.; -1/4)

 

Feel free to respond here or privately. I'm working on a villain but this could be a heroic power too couldn't it?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Summon Palindromedary

 

 

Hmm, for 60 Active Points you could have up to 64 150-point Followers who will be much more inclined to do what you ask without skill rolls or any other limitations. I'm sure the Real Points are significantly less, mind you, but you gotta love the loyalty in Followers....

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

That argument doesn't make sense with the basic damage rules. Whether or not an Energy Blast or Killing Attack does Knockback to a target is completely independent of whether it will actually do any damage to the same target.

 

But powers (like Dispel or Flash) bought with the Does Knockback Advantage must achieve an effect past a defense before they can do Knockback? Why?

 

I have to respectfully disagree with Mr. Long on this particular ruling.

 

I gotta tell ya, I would be disinclined to allow Does KB for Flashes in the first place, but if I did, I would have to say that it would achieve an effect before allowing the KB.

 

Even when allowing this for PRE, it's not KB but Knockdown.

 

You have to look at the power build and the concept and apply some common sense.

[CTaylor]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

Knockback isn't an additional power on top of the main power, it's a part of the power, a side effect of sorts. If the power cannot have any effect on the character (as in, they are immune to it, not they are too tough for it to affect) then the knockback can't either. No matter how much knockback you rolled, if you hit a desolid character with a blast they ignore, they ignore the knockback too.

[Vulcan]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

BUT

.

.

.

A 5d6 E-Blast cannot do damage to a target with 30 ED. But if you roll average BODY and snake-eyes on the KB roll, he's still knocked back 3"...

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

BUT

.

.

.

A 5d6 E-Blast cannot do damage to a target with 30 ED. But if you roll average BODY and snake-eyes on the KB roll, he's still knocked back 3"...

 

I don't have a problem with this depending on the SFX. A high pressure water hose can knock you down or (depending on the surface) push you back but won't do you any harm.

 

I could see an attack doing knockback but not damaging you without problem. Air blast?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

It's the classic Hulk/Thing 'sonic slam'. They clap their hands together really hard and make shockwaves. They don't seem to do much damage, just render the opponents deafened and sends 'em flying.

 

A 30 ED does render you immune to a 5d6 EB. If you're pushing or haymakering, it's no longer 5d6 of EB. It's 7 or 9d6.

 

First off, that Slam never seems to cause deafness, in my experience. It only causes Knockback. Maybe it's Telekinesis, only to throw. Maybe it's an EB, only to knock back. It doesn't look like a Hearing Flash.

 

And a 5d6 EB could also do damage because your opponent successfully used Find Weakness 6 times running. Or because your ED has been Drained or Suppressed. No matter how many time you Find Weakness, or how much Flash Defense you drain, a deaf target cannot be affected by an attack that acts against Hearing Flash Defense.

 

A Hearing Flash cannot affect a deaf target because such a target is effectively "desolid" to any effect that acts against Hearing Flash Defense - there is no way to circumvent his immunity to such attacks.

 

I also like CTaylor's explanation analogizing this to an NND.

 

That argument doesn't make sense with the basic damage rules. Whether or not an Energy Blast or Killing Attack does Knockback to a target is completely independent of whether it will actually do any damage to the same target.

 

But powers (like Dispel or Flash) bought with the Does Knockback Advantage must achieve an effect past a defense before they can do Knockback? Why?

 

They don't have to achieve an effect past a defense. They have to be capable of affecting the target if they have no defenses whatsoever against the ability. Deaf target? no effect. Target has 500 points of Hearing Flash Defense? Can still be knocked back by a Hearing Flash, Does Knockback.

 

A 5d6 E-Blast cannot do damage to a target with 30 ED. But if you roll average BODY and snake-eyes on the KB roll' date=' he's still knocked back 3"...[/quote']

 

A 5d6 Hearing Flash cannot do damage to a target with 30 Hearing Flash Defense. But if you roll average BODY and snake-eyes on the KB roll, he's still knocked back 3" too. This differs from defenses. The attack is utterly useless due to the target's complete lack of anything for the attack to target.

 

Hearing Flash attacks come bundled with "no effect on deaf targets".

[Vulcan]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

I don't have a problem with this depending on the SFX. A high pressure water hose can knock you down or (depending on the surface) push you back but won't do you any harm.

 

I could see an attack doing knockback but not damaging you without problem. Air blast?

 

You misunderstand. By the RAW, that's how it works. Period.

 

Granted, it's not particularly likely (only one roll in 6 is going to cause any knockback, with a further one roll in 9 causing knockdown). But that is the rule.

 

Anything else is a house rule.

 

Now how that relates to "Hearing Flash does KB" vs. a deaf target is up for interpretation. But an E-Blast can still do KB, even if it bounces entirely off the target's DEF.

[Utech]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

A game I was GMing included a PC with a Flash vs Hearing that did Knockback. I didn't like it when I saw it on the sheet but was willing to give it a shot.

 

I gave it a shot.

 

Didn't like it.

 

Won't be quick to allow it again.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

If deafening the target isn't the priority of the attack, why start with a Hearing Flash? Reason from effect. What's the attack supposed to do?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

If deafening the target isn't the priority of the attack' date=' why start with a Hearing Flash? Reason from effect. What's the attack supposed to do?[/quote']

 

Knock targets off their feet.

 

A Power Advantage accomplishes the effect, not any particular power. So why is it necessary to use a Power designed to deliver Damage combined with a Limitation to NOT directly do damage?

 

60 Touch Group Flash 8d6, Does Knockback (+1/4), Explosion (+1/2), Double Knockback (+3/4) (60 Active Points) - END=6

60 Energy Blast 8d6, Explosion (+1/2), Double Knockback (+3/4) (90 Active Points); Limited Power Only to throw targets away from a central point (-1/2) - END=9

 

The argument here is not about Real Cost. It is about Active Cost and how it applies to Multipowers and VPP's. The first example fits neatly in a 60 point pool/reserve but the second one doesn't. But the first example can't affect a target that lacks a "sense of touch"?!? That'll be house ruled away in my games

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

Fair enough, but I notice you use a Touch Flash, not a Hearing Flash. That seems to make more sense for the concept of the power to me.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

Fair enough' date=' but I notice you use a Touch Flash, not a Hearing Flash. That seems to make more sense for the concept of the power to me.[/quote']

 

Maybe such a stong shockwave of air should Flash both Touch and Hearing groups? Oh, wait, that would reduce the number of dice I could buy. That won't work.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

Knock targets off their feet.

 

A Power Advantage accomplishes the effect, not any particular power. So why is it necessary to use a Power designed to deliver Damage combined with a Limitation to NOT directly do damage?

 

60 Touch Group Flash 8d6, Does Knockback (+1/4), Explosion (+1/2), Double Knockback (+3/4) (60 Active Points) - END=6

60 Energy Blast 8d6, Explosion (+1/2), Double Knockback (+3/4) (90 Active Points); Limited Power Only to throw targets away from a central point (-1/2) - END=9

 

The argument here is not about Real Cost. It is about Active Cost and how it applies to Multipowers and VPP's. The first example fits neatly in a 60 point pool/reserve but the second one doesn't.

 

Then buy that EB at 5d6 instead of 8d6 if it needs to fit in a 60 AP limit for a framework.

 

But the first example can't affect a target that lacks a "sense of touch"?!? That'll be house ruled away in my games.

 

Desolidified characters are still affected by Flashes without the Affects Desolid Advantage. So this "Air Burst" -- because it is built with Flash instead of EB -- *will* knock a Desolid character back?

 

That should also be house ruled away to be consistent IMO.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

....

Desolidified characters are still affected by Flashes without the Affects Desolid Advantage. So this "Air Burst" -- because it is built with Flash instead of EB -- *will* knock a Desolid character back?

 

That should also be house ruled away to be consistent IMO.

 

From 5er page 147

 

A Desolidified character cannot touch or feel solid objects. But except for Touch Group Senses, all of a Desolidified character’s Senses, even “active” ones like Radar, work normally while he’s intangible.

[CTaylor]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

A 5d6 E-Blast cannot do damage to a target with 30 ED.

Again, he's not immune to the damage, he's just defended against it. It's the difference between high defenses and an NND that doesn't affect you, or a stun only attack against an automaton that takes no stun damage. Immunity is different than protection.

 

And yeah a touch flash would make more sense conceptually, and there aren't many people who are so totally numb they cannot feel any contact whatsoever.

[Lucius]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

Hmm' date=' for 60 Active Points you could have up to 64 150-point Followers who will be much more inclined to do what you ask without skill rolls or any other limitations. I'm sure the Real Points are significantly less, mind you, but you gotta love the loyalty in Followers....[/quote']

 

And their predictability. This could get you 8 people of 150 pts, or 1 zero point normal.

 

He has followers too. This is for when they're unavailable or impractical to use, or he needs a little more manpower.

 

Another ability is

 

Let's Clean up this Neighborhood: Change Environment 1" radius, -1 Stealth and Concealment (Better lit, fewer places to hide), Long-Lasting 1 Season, MegaScale (1" = Neighborhood, park, similar urban area; +1/4) (50 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Week, Only to Activate, -2 1/4), Gradual Effect (1 Week; -2), OIF (Not Accessible: Even if you steal their tools today, they'll be back at work tomorrow.) Expendable (Difficult to obtain new funding; Tools and funds; -3/4), No Range (-1/2), Requires Assistance Needs four full time volunteers, or equivalent man hours of part timers. (Assistants do not need to also have the power.; -1/4) End 5 Real cost 7

 

This way he can have every one of his followers at work on various other schemes while he is very visibly spending that whole week using Street Preaching to raise the volunteers he needs to Clean up the Neighborhood - some working, others donating money or materiels, etc.

 

In other words, Street Preaching is for finding people to do stuff you don't need someone as loyal or competent as a follower for.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a loyal competent palindromedary

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

Again, he's not immune to the damage, he's just defended against it. It's the difference between high defenses and an NND that doesn't affect you, or a stun only attack against an automaton that takes no stun damage. Immunity is different than protection.

 

And yeah a touch flash would make more sense conceptually, and there aren't many people who are so totally numb they cannot feel any contact whatsoever.

 

Why does having a sense or not make a difference in whether a Flash with Does KB actually works. It's like saying the sense itself is causing the KB.

 

What makes sense conceptually about an EB or KA with the NND Advantage and either Does Knockback or Does Body (which includes Does KB) not doing any Knockback vs. a target with the NND defense?

 

RAW in either case is not consistent with the 'normal' KB rules at all. Damage that gets past defenses has no bearing at all on how much actual KB is done to a target. Why should applying an Advantage to a power limit this?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

Why does having a sense or not make a difference in whether a Flash with Does KB actually works. It's like saying the sense itself is causing the KB.

 

Actually, the construct says that an attack which affects the sense some how also does knockback. Why would an attack which only deafens the target, and cannot inflict any physical harm, exert sufficient pressure to hurl the target several meters through the air?

 

Conceptually, the problem can be attributed to the construct itself as easily as to the rule.

 

What makes sense conceptually about an EB or KA with the NND Advantage and either Does Knockback or Does Body (which includes Does KB) not doing any Knockback vs. a target with the NND defense?

 

My electrical taser blast is ineffective against those shielded from electricity. Those who are not are stunned and their muscles spasm uncontrollably, hurling them away from the source of the electricity.

 

RAW in either case is not consistent with the 'normal' KB rules at all. Damage that gets past defenses has no bearing at all on how much actual KB is done to a target. Why should applying an Advantage to a power limit this?

 

This has nothing to do with "damage past defenses". The target is immune to the attack. That makes him immune to all effects provided by the attack, provided by an advantage or not.

[CTaylor]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

Why does having a sense or not make a difference in whether a Flash with Does KB actually works. It's like saying the sense itself is causing the KB.

It has to do with immunity. If you buy "does knockback" on a power that someone is immune to, they don't suffer any part of the damage, including the knockback. See above for the NND and desolidification examples.

[pinecone]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

Then buy that EB at 5d6 instead of 8d6 if it needs to fit in a 60 AP limit for a framework.

 

 

 

Desolidified characters are still affected by Flashes without the Affects Desolid Advantage. So this "Air Burst" -- because it is built with Flash instead of EB -- *will* knock a Desolid character back?

 

That should also be house ruled away to be consistent IMO.

 

Um, 5D6 x2 KB averages Less KB than 12 d6 does? though I suppose that the fair compare is 8D6 Exp....

[SteveZilla]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

Um' date=' 5D6 x2 KB averages Less KB than 12 d6 does? though I suppose that the fair compare is 8D6 Exp....[/quote']

 

I don't mean to be rude, but I have to say "So what?". IMO (and experience with some) people tend to build a power like this with Dispel or Flash for one reason -- to get more dice.

 

If you want to cause knockback -- use a base power that causes knockback on it's own and build from there.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

Then buy that EB at 5d6 instead of 8d6 if it needs to fit in a 60 AP limit for a framework.

...

 

 

But why?

 

Why must I start with an ability that has more effects to start with than I want my final power to possess? It's like saying that all characters wanting resistant defenses must buy Armor even if they want to build an effect that costs End to maintain like Force Field. I realize that Does KB & x2KB are being applied as Advantages but I shouldn't be limited to adding the x2KB to just EB's and KA's. RAW allows x2KB to be applied to more than just NND/AVLD EB's and KA's but the ruling makes me wonder why.

 

As the current rules stand If I were to model a Jedi's Lightsaber as a NND (stopped by 'shields' and other Lightsabers) KA with Does Body (which includes Does KB by default) and attempted to use it vs. a battle droid with 'shields' I could NEVER do ANY KB. My initialy BODY roll or the base KB subtraction make no difference. All because purchased an Advantage called No Normal Defense that in this instance is being treated like a Limitation even with the Does Body/Does KB Advantage. That sounds suspiciously like a special effect driven ruling to me.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Favorite 60-point Power Construction

 

But why?

 

As the current rules stand If I were to model a Jedi's Lightsaber as a NND (stopped by 'shields' and other Lightsabers) KA with Does Body (which includes Does KB by default) and attempted to use it vs. a battle droid with 'shields' I could NEVER do ANY KB. My initialy BODY roll or the base KB subtraction make no difference. All because purchased an Advantage called No Normal Defense that in this instance is being treated like a Limitation even with the Does Body/Does KB Advantage. That sounds suspiciously like a special effect driven ruling to me.

 

This is not SFX based, it is mechanics based. It applies to all NND's, not NND's with specific SFX. If some NND's with Does BOD can do knockback against a target with the defense and others cannot, that woud be SFX driven.

 

Um' date=' 5D6 x2 KB averages Less KB than 12 d6 does? though I suppose that the fair compare is 8D6 Exp....[/quote']

 

This is a problem with the pricing of 2x knockback and Does Knockback. 16d6 [3 point per d6 power] does Knockback (+1/4) cost 60 points and average 16 - 2d6 knockback. 12d6 EB costs 60 points and averages 12 - 2d6 Knockback. 7d6 EB Double Knockback costs 61 points and averages 14 - 2d6 knockback.

 

Are these results reasonable? I suggest loss of 5d6 damage to obtain 2" of knockback is excessive, indicating the price of double knockback is too high. Does Knockback is probably OK, but a Hearing Flash that Does Knockback should not, IMO, generate more knockback than a double knockback EB.

 

Make Double Knockback +1/2 and an 8d6 EB, Double Knockback attack would match the hearing flash. That seems a more reasonable result to me. 1d6 trades off for 1" knockback on average.