Stalin versus Hitler

[Susano]

Translated from the Russian, with annotations.

 

 

http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/4974829.html

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Stalin versus Hitler

 

Very cool! I've seen it before but never translated.

[lemming]

Re: Stalin versus Hitler

 

Interesting use of metaphors.

[Fitz]

Re: Stalin versus Hitler

 

Yeah! Go Stalin! Because he's not.... as bad.... as Hitler? Um.

 

I have a boiling, seething, red-hot hatred for Stalin because in my opinion he is almost single-handedly responsible for the utter perversion of the communist ideal. He was, in spirit, a fascist, and has tarred communism with his execrable paranoid totalitarianism ever since. I'm not one of those starry-eyed idealists who think the sun shone out of Lenin and Trotsky; they were both pragmatic opportunists, to put it generously. But I am sure that things would have been very, very different if Stalin had never come to power.

 

I'm also not that happy with Mao or Castro, both of whom seem to have seen communism as an excuse for dictatorship -- though ironically, I strongly suspect Castro wouldn't have stayed in power as long as he did if not for the US embargo, which he could use as a potent internal propaganda tool.

 

I thought Ho Chi Minh was pretty cool though. It's a pity that he was followed by lesser men, but to me Viet Nam stands as the most successful of the communist regimes by being idealogically flexible enough to fit the local circumstances, and eschewing the dogmatical nature of Chinese or Soviet communism.

 

Anyway, rant over.

[Narratio]

Re: Stalin versus Hitler

 

But why didn't they go the whole hog, have Goebels as a fawning toadlike creature at his knees, Goering as some easily punctured ablloon.... Good work, but missed chances.

 

Repped anyway

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: Stalin versus Hitler

 

'Hitler And Stalin - Parallel Lives' by Alan Bullock, is a comparitive biography of both individuals.

 

There is one intriguing fact that the book mentions. Apparently, for a few weeks, both men were living in the same city at the same time.

 

Vienna, during the 1920s. Stalin was there as part of some delegation. Hitler was scraping by as an artist and sometime rabble-rouser. There are absolutely no indications that they ever met and, given the size of Vienna and the disparity of their circumstances, it seems quite unlikely. However, as the author of the book points out, it is fascinating to imagine them unknowingly passing each other on the street or rubbing shoulders in a crowd.

 

Interesting premise for a time-travel scenario, or as maybe part of a Pulp game.

 

Incidentally, Hitler's real surname was Hitler. I think "Schicklgruber" was a fabrication by some of his opponents.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Stalin versus Hitler

 

Yeah! Go Stalin! Because he's not.... as bad.... as Hitler? Um.

 

I have a boiling, seething, red-hot hatred for Stalin because in my opinion he is almost single-handedly responsible for the utter perversion of the communist ideal. He was, in spirit, a fascist, and has tarred communism with his execrable paranoid totalitarianism ever since. I'm not one of those starry-eyed idealists who think the sun shone out of Lenin and Trotsky; they were both pragmatic opportunists, to put it generously. But I am sure that things would have been very, very different if Stalin had never come to power.

You are joking, right? You don't really think Marx and Lenin weren't fully aware that communism could only be applied by terror? (Their own writings show they understood that ugly truth perfectly well and that caused neither of them an attack of conscience.)

[lemming]

Re: Stalin versus Hitler

 

You are joking' date=' right? You don't really think Marx and Lenin weren't fully aware that communism could only be applied by terror? (Their own writings show they understood that ugly truth perfectly well and that caused neither of them an attack of conscience.) [/quote']

 

I don't think he was saying Lenin & Trotsky were good guys. Just that Stalin pushed terror masked as communism.

[Narratio]

Re: Stalin versus Hitler

 

However' date=' as the author of the book points out, it is fascinating to imagine them unknowingly passing each other on the street or rubbing shoulders in a crowd.[/quote']Now that is a good idea. One stop "let's change the world" shopping.

[NanDispute]

Re: Stalin versus Hitler

 

Incidentally' date=' Hitler's real surname was Hitler. I think "Schicklgruber" was a fabrication by some of his opponents.[/quote']

 

Based, however, on fact.

 

In 1837, a 42-year-old unmarried woman named Maria Schicklgruber gave birth to a boy, who was given the name Alois. Maria never revealed the identity of the boy's father. Five years later she married Johann Georg Hiedler---or Hitler; he spelled his name both ways.

 

Alois retained the surname Schicklgruber until he was 39 years old. In 1876 he managed to get a new birth certificate issued that claimed Johann Georg was his biological father (Maria and JG were dead by this point). From then on, Alois went by the name Alois Hitler.

 

Who was Alois Hitler? Adolf Hitler's father. Since Adolf was born in 1889, his father had been Herr Hitler for 13 years, so it's not accurate to claim Adolf's "real" name was Schicklgruber. OTOH, it's not utterly without merit.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Stalin versus Hitler

 

Isn't there also an argument that Stalin had Hitler's skull in a box on his desk for years after WW2? Which makes me wonder why he kept accusing the western allies of hiding ol' Schickelgruber. For that matter, one wonders just why he wanted to keep Hitler's noggin so close at hand.

[NanDispute]

Re: Stalin versus Hitler

 

Isn't there also an argument that Stalin had Hitler's skull in a box on his desk for years after WW2? Which makes me wonder why he kept accusing the western allies of hiding ol' Schickelgruber. For that matter' date=' one wonders just why he wanted to keep Hitler's noggin so close at hand.[/quote']

 

It talked to him.

 

:shock:

[Susano]

Re: Stalin versus Hitler

 

Isn't there also an argument that Stalin had Hitler's skull in a box on his desk for years after WW2? Which makes me wonder why he kept accusing the western allies of hiding ol' Schickelgruber. For that matter' date=' one wonders just why he wanted to keep Hitler's noggin so close at hand.[/quote']

 

He wanted to make sure Adolph was really dead?

[Badger]

Re: Stalin versus Hitler

 

Yeah! Go Stalin! Because he's not.... as bad.... as Hitler? Um.

 

I have a boiling, seething, red-hot hatred for Stalin because in my opinion he is almost single-handedly responsible for the utter perversion of the communist ideal. He was, in spirit, a fascist, and has tarred communism with his execrable paranoid totalitarianism ever since. I'm not one of those starry-eyed idealists who think the sun shone out of Lenin and Trotsky; they were both pragmatic opportunists, to put it generously. But I am sure that things would have been very, very different if Stalin had never come to power.

 

I'm also not that happy with Mao or Castro, both of whom seem to have seen communism as an excuse for dictatorship -- though ironically, I strongly suspect Castro wouldn't have stayed in power as long as he did if not for the US embargo, which he could use as a potent internal propaganda tool.

 

I thought Ho Chi Minh was pretty cool though. It's a pity that he was followed by lesser men, but to me Viet Nam stands as the most successful of the communist regimes by being idealogically flexible enough to fit the local circumstances, and eschewing the dogmatical nature of Chinese or Soviet communism.

 

Anyway, rant over.

 

I'd rate Stalin worse than Hitler personally. When it came to genocide, he and Mao made Hitler look like an amateur (at least for sheer numbers, though both had more years). I dont know much about Mao, but with Hitler, it was generally predictable who he would send to the camps. With Stalin, he'd send to Siberia whatever group was making him paranoid that week.

 

Hitler was abominable piece of ####, dont get me wrong. But, it just seems Stalin and Mao get too much of a "pass". Maybe because we never fought against them a war? I dont know. It just kind of annoys me, sometimes.

[Vestnik]

Re: Stalin versus Hitler

 

I try not to get involved in conversations like this, but the Gulag camp system was not remotely comparable to the Nazi Vernichtungslager (death camp) system. You normally left the former through the front gate, and the latter through the crematoria flue. Gulag camps were forced-labor camps in harsh conditions with a high mortality rate (varying by camp, but about 20%). Treblinka, on the other hand, was designed specifically to murder and had a morality rate of 99+%. The great majority of Gulag prisoners eventually were released. You did not return from a Nazi death camp.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Stalin versus Hitler

 

Isn't there also an argument that Stalin had Hitler's skull in a box on his desk for years after WW2? Which makes me wonder why he kept accusing the western allies of hiding ol' Schickelgruber. For that matter' date=' one wonders just why he wanted to keep Hitler's noggin so close at hand.[/quote']

 

Until the certificate of authenticity comes in, he can't put it on Ebay!

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Stalin versus Hitler

 

I'd rate Stalin worse than Hitler personally. When it came to genocide, he and Mao made Hitler look like an amateur (at least for sheer numbers, though both had more years). I dont know much about Mao, but with Hitler, it was generally predictable who he would send to the camps. With Stalin, he'd send to Siberia whatever group was making him paranoid that week.

 

Hitler was abominable piece of ####, dont get me wrong. But, it just seems Stalin and Mao get too much of a "pass". Maybe because we never fought against them a war? I dont know. It just kind of annoys me, sometimes.

 

Friend, if you want to hear some truly venomous rants aginst Stalin and/or Mao, I knew some elderly Ukrainians and Poles (refugees from his rule) and some older Chinese who could have shown you new depths to loathing when they discussed those men.

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: Stalin versus Hitler

 

Friend' date=' if you want to hear some truly venomous rants aginst Stalin and/or Mao, I knew some elderly Ukrainians and Poles (refugees from his rule) and some older Chinese who could have shown you new depths to loathing when they discussed those men.[/quote']

 

I married into a Chinese family. Despite what they went through during the Cultural Revolution, the general consensus there is that Mao had some incredibly bad ideas and was responsible for various atrocities ...

 

BUT he re-unified China and paved the way for it to become a major world power once again. That counts for a great deal in their book.

[Mostlyjoe]

Re: Stalin versus Hitler

 

What was the quote....oh yes.

 

You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Stalin versus Hitler

 

I married into a Chinese family. Despite what they went through during the Cultural Revolution, the general consensus there is that Mao had some incredibly bad ideas and was responsible for various atrocities ...

 

BUT he re-unified China and paved the way for it to become a major world power once again. That counts for a great deal in their book.

 

Where did this family come from in China? My understanding is that the southern/"overseas" Chinese weren't as fond of him as the northerners.

[Steve Long]

Re: Stalin versus Hitler

 

OK, I'm locking this one now. I don't think political discussions of Communism or debates about who's the worst mass-murderer are really appropriate for hte Pulp Hero board. Feel free to continue this on NGD, if you like.