Extra energy damage in HTH

[hammersickle59]

I want to create a spell that makes my hands "icy" and does additional cold damage with my HTH attacks.

 

When I apply continous to HTH it makes it so after I hit, they keep taking damage, but I don't want that. I want the spell to stay up for say, 5 mins (but thats solved, I'll use continuing charges for that).

 

I assume I have to buy an Energy Blast and link it to my HTH right? something like that. I'm stuck on the mechanics. Or maybe its a compound power?

 

Thanks for all the help

 

Dean

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

I think I know what you are talking about. You want to cast a spell and for the next five minutes you will do more damage when you hit people hand to hand (because your hands are very cold).

 

The easy thing to do is as follows:

 

+4D6 Hand Attack, requires skill roll, continuing recoverable charge.

 

So. When you cast the spell you get added HtH damage for as long as you set the continuing charge. You can regain the charge by casting the spell again (expending all of the time and expendables necessary for the spell).

 

 

Doc

[hammersickle59]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

Does that really work though? Mechanically, they would still take damage every phase after you hit them once. Right? Remember, you have to make the HTH continous before you make it a continous charge.

 

On a side note; how do i give someone "rep". I've never done that before.

 

Dean

[prestidigitator]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

I have noticed that problem before, quite a bit when designing or converting fantasy spells. The only system mechanic that really deals with it is the Costs Endurance Limitation (the variation that costs End only the first time you activate the power). For other similar effects I have typically divided "duration" type modifiers each into how they affect the target and how they affect the user. When it isn't obvious, specify which is intended by modifiers like Continuous.

 

Also, for affecting a target over a period consider the Gradual Effect Limitation.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

Does that really work though? Mechanically, they would still take damage every phase after you hit them once. Right? Remember, you have to make the HTH continous before you make it a continous charge.

 

On a side note; how do i give someone "rep". I've never done that before.

 

Dean

 

What my build does is, for the period of the charge, enable the character to do additional attack damage. Someone hit by the character would take additional damage when they were hit but not after that.

 

Do you want lingering damage on those hit? I didn't read that into the original post.

 

 

Doc

[ghost-angel]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

Use Lingering instead of Continuous - it's specifically designed for spells that are available for use but not "actively working" for a period of time.

 

+4D6 Hand To Hand Attack; Lingering: 5 Minutes (+1); + the rest of it.

 

Lingering is in Fantasy Hero, p257.

[caris]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

Use Lingering instead of Continuous - it's specifically designed for spells that are available for use but not "actively working" for a period of time.

 

+4D6 Hand To Hand Attack; Lingering: 5 Minutes (+1); + the rest of it.

 

Lingering is in Fantasy Hero, p257.

 

OK, so how is this superior to a Hand to Hand Attack without Lingering? What does Lingering get you in terms of an Advantage that not having it wouldn't?

 

This sounds much more like a Custom Limitation, or a reduction of the value of other Limitations if they are for activation only. A +1 Advantage though sounds like too big of an Active Cost hit for the benefits recieved.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

OK, so how is this superior to a Hand to Hand Attack without Lingering? What does Lingering get you in terms of an Advantage that not having it wouldn't?

 

This sounds much more like a Custom Limitation, or a reduction of the value of other Limitations if they are for activation only. A +1 Advantage though sounds like too big of an Active Cost hit for the benefits recieved.

 

from: Fantasy Hero ■ Chapter Four page 257

 

Lingering Instant Spells

Sometimes a character wants the ability to cast an Instant spell — typically some sort of Attack Power-based spell — and have the power remain available for use even when he doesn’t use it every Phase. A common example is a spell that grants the caster claws (an HKA). HKA is an Instant Power, so what normally happens is the character casts the spell and uses the claws in the same Phase, and then the claws fade away. To use the claws again, the character must cast the spell again.

At the GM’s option, a character can apply a new Advantage, Lingering, to spells built with Instant Powers. For each +¼ Advantage, the spell remains “in effect” for the time indicated on the Lingering Table after the character casts the spell. During the time period in which the spell Lingers, the character can automatically activate the spell’s power on any of his Phases as a Zero-Phase Action (though it still also requires an Attack Action, if appropriate) without having to re-cast the spell. The spell’s power remains available for the full time purchased, even if the caster chooses not to activate the power in a particular Phase or he’s already activated it one or more times. The character pays END when he first casts the spell, and then pays END whenever he activates or uses it, but does not pay END for it during the Phases when it simply remains ready for use.

A Lingering spell remains perceivable by all the Sense Groups that can normally perceive it when it’s in use. A character may purchase a form of Invisible Power Effects, Invisible While Lingering (+¼), to hide the spell’s power from all Sense Groups during the duration of the Lingering.

 

 

+1/4 = +1 Phase

+1/2 = Up to 1 Turn

+3/4 = Up to 1 Minute

+1 = Up to 5 Minutes

...and so forth.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

I'm with Caris. I'm not sure how lingering affects the build. If I buy 4D6 HA then it lingers forever and I can use it whenever I feel the need.

 

If I buy one continuing recoverable charge then it means when I use it, I have it available to use whenever I want for a set period of time after which I have to take action to recover the charge. I will have to go to the rules, my understanding of continuing charges is very 4th edition...but this is how I would build it. I'm not sure what lingering changes on this.

 

 

Doc

[hammersickle59]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

Thats guys! Lingering is what I needed.

 

Dean

[caris]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

from: Fantasy Hero ■ Chapter Four page 257

 

I wasn't questioning the rules Orthodoxy. I'm aware of it's existance in Fantasy Hero, which makes it only an optional rule. I'm questioning the sense of Game Balance which lead to this optional rule. (Yes, I know, hereasy, I'm questioning Steve Long's infinite wisdom in this case.)

 

I could create a character with claws which I can define as 1D6 HKA for 15 Active points. If I want to have a character that has a spell that grants them claws for five minutes at a time, it is built as 1D6 HKA Lingering +1 for 30 Active points. Why? What about only having access to the power for 5 minutes at a time makes it twice as powerful as having access to those claws all the time?

 

The primary benefit of this is that it makes the Limitations related to activating the power less effective. Most things that make a Limitation less restricting change the value of the Limitation, they aren't Advantage increasing the power of the Power.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

I'm with Caris. I'm not sure how lingering affects the build. If I buy 4D6 HA then it lingers forever and I can use it whenever I feel the need.

 

If I buy one continuing recoverable charge then it means when I use it, I have it available to use whenever I want for a set period of time after which I have to take action to recover the charge. I will have to go to the rules, my understanding of continuing charges is very 4th edition...but this is how I would build it. I'm not sure what lingering changes on this.

 

 

Doc

 

"Continuing" is normally only legal as an option for Charges if the power is either already constant or the Continuing Advantage has been purchased. Lingering makes a Charge Continuous only for future uses of the "Instant effect" normally (attack rolls are still necessary). The Continuous Advantage negates the need for future attack rolls altogether for the duration of the continuing charge.

 

examples made with HDv3:

 

20 Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6, 16 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (+0), Lingering up to 1 Turn (+1/2) (30 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) [16 cc]

 

27 Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6, 16 Charges (+0), Continuous (+1) (40 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) [16]

 

33 Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6, 16 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (50 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) [16 cc]

 

The 1st example uses Lingering as I described earlier.

 

The 2nd example uses 1 charge each time an attack is made. If subsequent attacks are made against the same target (after a successful hit) then no attack roll is necessary as per the normal Continuous Advantage rules.

 

The 3rd example uses 1 charge per attack roll per target. Subsequent damage rolls vs. the same target (after a successful hit) are not needed for the 'duration' of each charge.

 

 

 

Ultimately, using the Lingering Advantage allows for a more precise build of a limited effect for less active points (important for spellcasting frameworks) than a similar use of the Continuous Advantage.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

.... What about only having access to the power for 5 minutes at a time makes it twice as powerful as having access to those claws all the time?

 

 

The use of Lingering only makes sense when it is being combined with Charges and most spell systems use some type of limited charge requirement.

[caris]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

The use of Lingering only makes sense when it is being combined with Charges and most spell systems use some type of limited charge requirement.

 

How? Does it remove the need to apply Continuing to those charges? And if it only makes sense in the presences of a Limitation, why isn't a modifier of that Limitation?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

OK, so how is this superior to a Hand to Hand Attack without Lingering? What does Lingering get you in terms of an Advantage that not having it wouldn't?

 

This sounds much more like a Custom Limitation, or a reduction of the value of other Limitations if they are for activation only. A +1 Advantage though sounds like too big of an Active Cost hit for the benefits recieved.

 

I'm with Caris. I'm not sure how lingering affects the build. If I buy 4D6 HA then it lingers forever and I can use it whenever I feel the need.

 

If I buy one continuing recoverable charge then it means when I use it, I have it available to use whenever I want for a set period of time after which I have to take action to recover the charge. I will have to go to the rules, my understanding of continuing charges is very 4th edition...but this is how I would build it. I'm not sure what lingering changes on this.

 

 

Doc

 

Lingering is specifically designed for spells - and really does only make sense in the context of a Spell geared setting.

 

Lingering is useful when you don't want to use the Charges Limitation, and the Continuous Advantage does not result in the desired effect.

 

Let's look at the OPs desire for Fists Of Ice. You add cold damage to your normal punch. It's a spell (just as an example, takes a Full Phase to cast, requires Gestures and Incantation); you want it to last for 5 Minutes (Constant); you can cast it an unlimited number of times (no Charges); you want it to act like a normal punch (from an Attack Roll perspective it's Instant instead of Constant).

 

Take all that together and Fantasy Hero introduces: Lingering.

It needs to be activated once (Cast)

It lasts for 5 Minutes (Constant)

Unlimited activations (No Charges)

Requires new Attack Roll every use, uses do not have to be contiguous (acts Instant)

 

Lingering is not the same as Continuous Charges. Nor is it the same as Continuous. It takes aspects of Continuous, aspects of Instant, and applies them to a situation where "Reactivation" is not simply "using the Power" but normally a prolonged "Spell Casting Event."

 

The OP specified Spell so I, safely it seems, assumed that there was a Casting Element involved, and quite possibly the idea of Casting On Others. And since you can't have your mage hit you every Phase, you possibly want the END Cost, an unlimited number of casts, and longer term availability neither Continuous nor Charges fit the bill easily.

[caris]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

Lingering is specifically designed for spells - and really does only make sense in the context of a Spell geared setting.

 

Lingering is useful when you don't want to use the Charges Limitation, and the Continuous Advantage does not result in the desired effect.

 

Let's look at the OPs desire for Fists Of Ice. You add cold damage to your normal punch. It's a spell (just as an example, takes a Full Phase to cast, requires Gestures and Incantation); you want it to last for 5 Minutes (Constant); you can cast it an unlimited number of times (no Charges); you want it to act like a normal punch (from an Attack Roll perspective it's Instant instead of Constant).

 

Take all that together and Fantasy Hero introduces: Lingering.

It needs to be activated once (Cast)

It lasts for 5 Minutes (Constant)

Unlimited activations (No Charges)

Requires new Attack Roll every use, uses do not have to be contiguous (acts Instant)

 

Lingering is not the same as Continuous Charges. Nor is it the same as Continuous. It takes aspects of Continuous, aspects of Instant, and applies them to a situation where "Reactivation" is not simply "using the Power" but normally a prolonged "Spell Casting Event."

 

The OP specified Spell so I, safely it seems, assumed that there was a Casting Element involved, and quite possibly the idea of Casting On Others. And since you can't have your mage hit you every Phase, you possibly want the END Cost, an unlimited number of casts, and longer term availability neither Continuous nor Charges fit the bill easily.

 

What part of:

 

I wasn't questioning the rules Orthodoxy. I'm aware of it's existance in Fantasy Hero' date=' which makes it only an optional rule. I'm questioning the sense of Game Balance which lead to this optional rule. (Yes, I know, hereasy, I'm questioning Steve Long's infinite wisdom in this case.)[/quote']

 

did you not understand?

 

I know what the power does, and I understand why of the Orthodox options that you chose it. What I don't understand is why you agree with Steve Long that an Advantage is the best way to model the effect. Hopefully, if you can give me some reasons for agreeing with Mr. Long, I might get some idea of why Mr. Long might have chosen this mehodology.

 

As you, Hyperman and I have all stated it only makes sense when other Limitations are in place. So to me a modifier to the Limitations makes more sense, than an Advantage.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

What part of:

 

 

 

did you not understand?

 

I know what the power does, and I understand why of the Orthodox options that you chose it. What I don't understand is why you agree with Steve Long that an Advantage is the best way to model the effect. Hopefully, if you can give me some reasons for agreeing with Mr. Long, I might get some idea of why Mr. Long might have chosen this mehodology.

 

As you, Hyperman and I have all stated it only makes sense when other Limitations are in place. So to me a modifier to the Limitations makes more sense, than an Advantage.

 

Curb your attitude.

 

 

You're taking an Instant Power and making it act like a Continuous Charge. Without the limitation of a set number of uses.

 

Unlimited Continuous Charges.

 

I can't explain any more simply.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

It's an advantage that gives a benefit.

 

Do you have a similar 'problem' with the Delayed Effect Advantage as well?

 

It also mitigates prep time Limitations even though it does so in a somewhat different manner.

 

example:

 

8 Lingering Ice Hands: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6, Lingering +1 Phase (+1/4) (25 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, -3/4), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Concentration (0 DCV; Only during extra time to activate; -1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2) 2

 

vs.

 

8 Delayed Effect Ice Hands: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6, Delayed Effect (+1/4) (25 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, -3/4), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Concentration (0 DCV; Only during extra time to activate; -1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2) 2

Notes: Delayed Effect: (Hero System Fifth Edition Rule Book, page 164; Revised, page 255) This Advantage allows a character to go through any length preparations needed to turn on a Power, then keep that Power "ready" before using it.

 

Also note that since Delayed Effect is being applied to an Instant Power it only applies to a single use of the Power. All the preparations would have to be started from the beginning to use it again.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

It also mitigates prep time Limitations even though it does so in a somewhat different manner.

 

This is a point to not forget. Especially in the context the Advantage is supposed to be used.

 

It removes the need for repeated applications of a Spell Activation - which typically includes a number of Limitations, quite possibly repeated needs to make Skill Rolls, take Extra Time, etc. . .

[Sean Waters]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

Continuous on a spell means you hit once and you keep doing damage without having to hit again.

 

Lingering on a spell means you turn a power on and it stays on (i.e. is available for use without re-activation) for a while. For a version of HtH Attack without any limtiations that is no help at all but, for instance, if you have to have an extra phase to activate your 'Cold Hands' power and you need gestures and incantations and there is a side effect and RSR, it makes a lot of sense - you only have to activate it once then it sticks round for use for more than this phase. Once you have been through the activation ritual, the power remains available for however long it lingers for, but an attack using lingering is no more effective than an attack without it.

 

That's if I recall how lingering works. I may not....

[ghost-angel]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

Continuous on a spell means you hit once and you keep doing damage without having to hit again.

 

Lingering on a spell means you turn a power on and it stays on (i.e. is available for use without re-activation) for a while. For a version of HtH Attack without any limtiations that is no help at all but, for instance, if you have to have an extra phase to activate your 'Cold Hands' power and you need gestures and incantations and there is a side effect and RSR, it makes a lot of sense - you only have to activate it once then it sticks round for use for more than this phase. Once you have been through the activation ritual, the power remains available for however long it lingers for, but an attack using lingering is no more effective than an attack without it.

 

That's if I recall how lingering works. I may not....

 

You recall correctly - and have stated its purpose perfectly.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

...

Hopefully, if you can give me some reasons for agreeing with Mr. Long, I might get some idea of why Mr. Long might have chosen this mehodology.

 

As you, Hyperman and I have all stated it only makes sense when other Limitations are in place. So to me a modifier to the Limitations makes more sense, than an Advantage.

 

It's not a matter of disagreeing or agreeing at all.

 

This is the HERO System Discussion forum.

A forum that is primarily imho intended for discussing the current rules, especially when dealing with How to questions.

 

It does not do the game as a whole (especially new players) any good to do otherwise in this forum.

 

If you want to debate future changes to those rules you should probably do so in the appropriate 6e forum.

 

If you want to discuss house rules on how you would change the existing rules you should probably start a new thread about house rules.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

To "cast a spell" that's instant and have it stick around so you can keep reusing it without "recasting", you want the Lingering Advantage.

 

To upgrade HtH damage you generally use the Hand Attack power. However, if you want the extra HA damage to be ENERGY based you can declare it so but it's inefficient due to the way HERO damage mitigation works. It's more effective to do all PD or all ED so that you can crest defenses; combined PD and ED attacks have diminished effect as the target gets to apply their defenses against each part of the attack separately.

 

You as the GM can rule that all the damage is vs PD or ED and just call it a day, but this doesn't always make logical sense. Another alternative / variation to this is apply all the damage against the higher of the targets PD or ED.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

OK, so how is this superior to a Hand to Hand Attack without Lingering? What does Lingering get you in terms of an Advantage that not having it wouldn't?

 

This sounds much more like a Custom Limitation, or a reduction of the value of other Limitations if they are for activation only. A +1 Advantage though sounds like too big of an Active Cost hit for the benefits recieved.

 

 

 

To understand Lingering and its usage, you have to really understand the minutia of the Instant mechanics and how they interact with limitations that inhibit the activation of powers. Try rereading the activation of powers rules; namely the part where any Limitations that affect the activation of a power have to be performed for each use of that power. So for Instant powers, like EB, HA, etc, that means if you put say Incantations & Gestures on the Power to simulate a SPELL, then every time you want to smack someone you have to Gesture and Incant. The effect granted by performing the Incantations and Gestures only last for, at most, one Phase and then turns off again.

 

Continuous can be applied to make an Instant last longer, but it has a different connotation in regards to an Attack -- this causes damage to keep occurring on the original target for some period of time. The attack cannot be retargeted, generally. The advantage effectively just stretches out the resolution of the original usage over time.

 

Thus Lingering. It allows a limited effect to be turned on once and continue to be available without needing to repeat any activation of power limitations for a period of time.

 

Additionally, while its pretty decent on its own in some contexts, it works _particularly_ well when combined with Charges since Lingering unlocks Continuing Charges for the same duration without need of the usual other means of doing so.

 

It originated in Fantasy HERO, and it addresses a common issue that arises for attack spells that are supposed to stick around for a while and be retargetable. "Summoning mystic swords" and mystic missiles that can be thrown immediately and for up to a minute later if the caster so chooses, and so forth. It generally does not make sense in Superheroic contexts where a character can just take whatever ability they like and turn it on / use it whenever if they like, but even still it can come in handy for specialized / limited builds.

 

I put up a lengthy explanation of Lingering and its effects years ago here.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Extra energy damage in HTH

 

This is a wrinkle in the rules I had not considered before. I think this is an area where 6th edition could make a difference - sorting out the whole "Limited Availability" of powers. That would include lingering and charges and possibly other stuff as well.

 

Obviously if I wanted a power to be available some of the time but not all of the time then that is a limited version of buying the power straight off (like what Caris said) but it is obviously better than charges for instant powers (so putting an advantage on the limitation! ).

 

Will have to look at it and think about what to suggest in the 6th edition forums.

 

 

Doc