New Power: Width Increase

[Markdoc]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

Of course I could be horribly wrong about concealment and stealth needing any kind of active use at all.

 

I think you are horribly wrong Concealment and Stealth are ways to actively alter how perceptible you (or something else) is. If a person hides an object (Concealment) another person may need to make a PER roll to find it - even though the object is not hiding.

 

Secondly, perception of an object/person is not automatic. The rules specify that PER rolls may need to to made to notice things (page 348, 5ER: "But (the GM) may require characters to make Perception Rolls (PER Rolls) to notice something inobvious").

 

Thus a small person gets a bonus to stealth and concealment rolls. To perceive him when he doesn't want to be perceived, you make your PER roll vs his Stealth/concealment + size bonus. He also gets a bonus to to "casual perception" based on size (regardless of whether he's spent points on it). To perceive him when he is simply standing around, you make your PER roll with a penalty based on his size (see table, page 353), plus whatever bonuses are applicable: a bright red costume like Wasp wears is probably going to give a contrast bonus if she's sitting on a white sofa.

 

The same would apply to the stable-smell problem: PER rolls are affected by distance/quantity/environmental conditions, right out of the box.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

You have, as so often, put your thumb on my problem (that may have come out wrong): a PER roll is needed to spot something inobvious - because the PER alteration only applies when the object is hiding (or hidden) or otherwise being stealthy, a character with shrinking (or the 'small' template) is NOT inobvious, even though they obviously should be, as the modifiers are not to the PER of the person observing generally.

 

In other words the presentation/build for shrinking and small does not (IMO, obviously) adequadely describe a small character.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

Um...Sean...have you looked at the Perception modifier charts? As memory serves there are penalties given outright for perceiving small things.

 

As usual, I'm really just not getting what you are on about.

 

Color me puzzled.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

I think you are horribly wrong Concealment and Stealth are ways to actively alter how perceptible you (or something else) is. If a person hides an object (Concealment) another person may need to make a PER roll to find it - even though the object is not hiding.

 

Secondly, perception of an object/person is not automatic. The rules specify that PER rolls may need to to made to notice things (page 348, 5ER: "But (the GM) may require characters to make Perception Rolls (PER Rolls) to notice something inobvious").

 

Thus a small person gets a bonus to stealth and concealment rolls. To perceive him when he doesn't want to be perceived, you make your PER roll vs his Stealth/concealment + size bonus. He also gets a bonus to to "casual perception" based on size (regardless of whether he's spent points on it). To perceive him when he is simply standing around, you make your PER roll with a penalty based on his size (see table, page 353), plus whatever bonuses are applicable: a bright red costume like Wasp wears is probably going to give a contrast bonus if she's sitting on a white sofa.

 

The same would apply to the stable-smell problem: PER rolls are affected by distance/quantity/environmental conditions, right out of the box.

 

cheers, Mark

This is correct, quoted for emphasis.

[Markdoc]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

You have' date=' as so often, put your thumb on my problem (that may have come out wrong): a PER roll is needed to spot something inobvious - because the PER alteration only applies when the object is hiding (or hidden) or otherwise being stealthy, a character with shrinking (or the 'small' template) is NOT inobvious, even though they obviously should be, as the modifiers are not to the PER of the person observing generally.[/quote']

 

KS has it: the PER table gives minuses based on size, and the rules leave it to the GM as to whether an object is obvious or inobvious (and therefore requires a PER roll).

 

In other words, a very small person may require a PER roll to see, even if they are not actively hiding. For that matter, an Elephant may (in some circumstances) require a PER roll to see, even if it's not actively hiding - for example if it's far away, or behind trees and bushes.

 

Size isn't everything (in this, as in so much) - a firefly is small, but it's pretty damn easy to see at night, if it's lit up. Thus, the GM call is: firefly, lit up at night (no PER roll required, size modifier irrelevant). Firefly not lit up at night (PER roll required at -12 for size, and -4 for lighting conditions)

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

You can't get advantages from sfx that are not minor AND balanced. The shrinking power makes you small but does not grant you the ability to generally be difficult to perceive. You can't just say 'I'm small, so I'm not noticed so much' - that's just getting a big advantage from sfx you have not paid for. If you are a small character either because you have shrinking the PER modifiers only work if you are using stealth or concealment and not otherwise. That's my problem - it shouldn't matter - if you are small you'll be harder to see anway. The firefly example illustrates this. You can be small but easy to notice if you draw attention to yourself, but if you don't (a firefly in daylight) then you are harder to see because you are small, even if you are not deliberately trying to avoid detection.

 

Shrinking does not do that. Shrinking just gives PER penalties to others when you are using particular skills. I KNOW that the PER table gives you the PER modifiers for seeing something small but you are NOT something small in game terms YOU ARE A HUMAN SIZED OBJECT WITH 'SMALL' AS POWER SFX - if you were small you wouldn't get the bonus for concealment or stealth - you'd have the bonus all the time. The only interpretation I can see - and it is not logical, which is where my problem lies, is that the size PER modifiers simply do not apply even though you are actually that small.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

So...your arguments are from your belief that the standard small size penalties for PER checks don't apply to people using Shrinking or with the Size Template Packages?

 

My belief is that they do, and that the PER modifier for shrinking and the Concealment / Stealth bonuses from the Size Template Packages are _in addition to_ the standard small size penalties and are applied when a character is actively attempting to make themselves even harder to perceive.

 

Is there some basis for your interpretation? Lets start there. If you have specific references that favor your belief I'm willing to reexamine my understanding of the situation.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

So...your arguments are from your belief that the standard small size penalties for PER checks don't apply to people using Shrinking or with the Size Template Packages?

 

My belief is that they do, and that the PER modifier for shrinking and the Concealment / Stealth bonuses from the Size Template Packages are _in addition to_ the standard small size penalties and are applied when a character is actively attempting to make themselves even harder to perceive.

 

Is there some basis for your interpretation? Lets start there. If you have specific references that favor your belief I'm willing to reexamine my understanding of the situation.

 

Well, I'm reasoning from effect (at least I think I am), and I'm supported by the text of the shrinking power (5ER p219):

 

The PER roll penalty for perceiving a shrunk character doesn't make a character difficult to perceive all the time - it's not a limited form of invisibility. Unless the character deliberately tries to be difficult to perceive, others can perceive him normally regardless of his size.

 

I'm reading that a shrunk character and a normal size character standing in a room have an equal chance to be spotted by someone entering the room, unless the shrunk character is deliberately trying to be difficult to perceive. Now a human sized mannequin and a fly sized mannequin would certainly not be equally easy to percive - why should characters be treated differently if they actually are substantially different sizes?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

Well, I'm reasoning from effect (at least I think I am), and I'm supported by the text of the shrinking power (5ER p219):

 

The PER roll penalty for perceiving a shrunk character doesn't make a character difficult to perceive all the time - it's not a limited form of invisibility. Unless the character deliberately tries to be difficult to perceive, others can perceive him normally regardless of his size.

 

I'm reading that a shrunk character and a normal size character standing in a room have an equal chance to be spotted by someone entering the room, unless the shrunk character is deliberately trying to be difficult to perceive. Now a human sized mannequin and a fly sized mannequin would certainly not be equally easy to percive - why should characters be treated differently if they actually are substantially different sizes?

 

 

Hmmm...I dont have my book w me. However, I do recall some language around the PER penalties as you cite but I recalled them as being in the context of opposed PER checks in conjunction w/ active attempts at going unobserved.

 

If you are right, and it flat out says that the standard perception modifiers don't apply to Shrunk characters "just because", then I would agree that would be illogical and I too would have a problem with that.

 

Ill check my book when I can. In the meantime maybe you could post a ? to Steve citing your references and asking for a ruling?

[Markdoc]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

Well, I'm reasoning from effect (at least I think I am), and I'm supported by the text of the shrinking power (5ER p219):

 

The PER roll penalty for perceiving a shrunk character doesn't make a character difficult to perceive all the time - it's not a limited form of invisibility. Unless the character deliberately tries to be difficult to perceive, others can perceive him normally regardless of his size.

 

I'm reading that a shrunk character and a normal size character standing in a room have an equal chance to be spotted by someone entering the room, unless the shrunk character is deliberately trying to be difficult to perceive. Now a human sized mannequin and a fly sized mannequin would certainly not be equally easy to percive - why should characters be treated differently if they actually are substantially different sizes?

 

Whereas I read the rules for size affecting powers where it says:

A character’s size affects the ability of other characters to perceive him: Grown characters are easier to perceive (+2 to PER Rolls to perceive them for every x2 height); Shrunken characters are harder to perceive (-2 to PER Rolls to perceive them for every x½ height).

(5ER, p 126)

 

Under Shrinking itself, it states (5ER, page 218)

A character with Shrinking can decrease in size, making it more difficult for other characters to attack or perceive him. For every 10 Character Points, the character gets the following benefi ts:

—x½ height

— x⅛ mass

—+2 DCV

—other characters suffer a -2 to all PER Rolls

made to perceive him (see below)

(Emphasis mine)

 

The section you quoted above is followed immediately by:

For example, if he’s in combat and/or using a perceivable Power of some sort, others can perceive him normally (i.e., without a penalty based on his size).

 

Look back at my firefly example. When doing something that makes him obvious (using a power, being in combat - or even just sitting somewhere in plain sight) then he is considered "obvious". No PER roll is needed to see obvious things: you don't normally need to make a PER roll to see the floor before putting your foot down every time you take a step, or to pick up a dice that is lying on the table right in front of you (even though it is always small) and by your interpretation, you'd need to roll a 3 or less every time you wanted to find and pick up a die.

 

My interpretation is:

1) small objects (whether via shrinking or inherently small) always have a minus on PER rolls (as stated in the first rules quote above)

2) You do not have to make a PER roll to percieve "obvious things"

3) The section you have quoted merely makes it plain that a character is not necessarily "inobvious" just because he's small and

4) The second section I have quoted makes it clear that combat or using powers instantly makes you obvious, regardless of other factors like size.

 

To summarise: if you are inobvious, you need a PER roll to be seen. If you are small and inobvious, that PER roll is penalised. However, being small does not necessarily make you inobvious. And you do not need a PER roll to see "obvious" things.

 

This approach has the advantage that it is consistent with the rules as written, and being logical: it applies to small things whether they got to be small by shrinking or by being just naturally small. Thus, as written, size affects all PER rolls. But size does not require that you have to make a PER roll, and in combat you should never have to.

 

cheers, Mark

[Doc Samson]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

This is why I prefer Self Only Change Environment for these types of effects. It clearly states that a roll is "forced".

From 5ER 136:

If applicable, the combat effect includes forcing

an affected character to make at least one

Characteristic, Skill, or PER Roll.

As far as the Shrinking bonuses go, the Size Templates (5ER 574) define the PER bonus as levels with Stealth and (Self Only) Concealment. As these are both Everyman skills in almost all genres, they will likely be available to any character with Shrinking for free. Though Skill Rolls "usually" require a Half-Phase Action, the GM could fairly rule that they are a actions that take no time under this circumstance.

Citations: (5ER) 42, 358, 363

Typically, making a Skill Roll constitutes a

Half Phase Action, but this can vary depending on

the Skill used, the task attempted, and the circumstances.

Sometimes making a Skill Roll requires

hours of effort... or no time at all.

Half Phase Actions include a

character using up to half of his inches of movement

(a “Half Move”), opening a door, using the Power

Find Weakness, or making most PER Rolls or Skill

Rolls (though the time on the latter can vary, depending

upon the Skill used and the circumstances).

Action Time Required Move Required

Make a Skill Roll Variable —

However, I would like to emphasize that (based on the example under Shrinking) the character must be "trying" to hide or be stealthy to enjoy the benefits.

From 5ER 218:

Example: Shrinker buys 40 Character Points’

worth of Shrinking. When Shrunk, she has

a +8 DCV, and she adds +12 to Knockback

(thus, when rolling Knockback, add 12 to the

amount of BODY done by the attack, only for

the purpose of determining how far Shrinker is

Knocked Back). If Shrinker is hiding or being

stealthy, anyone attempting to perceive her

must make a PER Roll at -8

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

Whereas I read the rules for size affecting powers where it says:

(5ER, p 126)

 

Under Shrinking itself, it states (5ER, page 218)

 

I agree, but, even though you are small, and so can fit through small gaps, the effects of 'small' are defined by the power not by your size i.e. these effects are not in addition to the benefits and drawbacks of being small. I support that with the PER modifiers: it would not make sense for those PER modifiers to be in addition to small size or you'd be reaping the benefits twice.

 

(Emphasis mine)

 

The section you quoted above is followed immediately by:

 

Well, yes, and I'd agree witht he example - if your attack is 'normal sized' then it will be as perceivable as any other attack and will therefore pinpoint your location. However the actual wording of the rule is exactly as i quoted it, which is much wider than being limited to attack visibility - specifically if you are not trying to be difficult to perceive then you are perceived normally regardless of size.

 

 

Look back at my firefly example. When doing something that makes him obvious (using a power' date=' being in combat - or even just sitting somewhere in plain sight[/b']) then he is considered "obvious". No PER roll is needed to see obvious things: you don't normally need to make a PER roll to see the floor before putting your foot down every time you take a step, or to pick up a dice that is lying on the table right in front of you (even though it is always small) and by your interpretation, you'd need to roll a 3 or less every time you wanted to find and pick up a die.

 

(my emphasis) The rules for shrinking do not talk about 'being obvious' they talk about not deliberately trying not to be perceived. I quite agree that using a power, attacking in combat and such are things that make you obvious because of the sfx rules, but being in plain sight, whilst it is arguable whether he is obvious (an inanimate object that small would not necessarily be obvious, even if it were in plain sight but if it were, for instance, glowing, then that would cancel out size penalties because it is then clearly obvious), but just standing there is clearly NOT 'deliberately trying not to be perceived'.

 

My interpretation is:

1) small objects (whether via shrinking or inherently small) always have a minus on PER rolls (as stated in the first rules quote above)

2) You do not have to make a PER roll to percieve "obvious things"

3) The section you have quoted merely makes it plain that a character is not necessarily "inobvious" just because he's small and

4) The second section I have quoted makes it clear that combat or using powers instantly makes you obvious, regardless of other factors like size.

 

To summarise: if you are inobvious, you need a PER roll to be seen. If you are small and inobvious, that PER roll is penalised. However, being small does not necessarily make you inobvious. And you do not need a PER roll to see "obvious" things.

 

This approach has the advantage that it is consistent with the rules as written, and being logical: it applies to small things whether they got to be small by shrinking or by being just naturally small. Thus, as written, size affects all PER rolls. But size does not require that you have to make a PER roll, and in combat you should never have to.

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

The logic is impeccable but I'm questioning one of the assumptions on which it is based. 60 points of shrinking make you about .05m or 5 cm long. My car keys are 8cm long and, believe me, even if they are not hiding they are not often obvious when I come into the room they are in, even if I'm looking for them.

 

OTOH my son is 185 cm tall and, if I walk into a room he's in, he's always pretty obvious.

 

In other words, I'd argue that to notice something, you need to make a PER roll. Generally a PER roll total of 11- means that*, in normal unstressed circumstances, you don't need to make the roll - the thing is obvious. Very small objects give penalties to PER and, unless they are drawing attention to themselves, or you know where to look, or the room is completely devoid of anything BUT the small object (i.e., like your firefly example, the object is high contrast) you do not automatically notice them. You need a roll and that roll takes modifiers, including size modifiers.

 

'Obviousness' is a function of many things, but in a normal living room, or office, or woodland grove, something 5cm long that is not, in some way, high contrast, is not going to be obvious, even if it is, nominally, in plain sight. If my son were to shrink to 5cm tall (please...) then he would not be obvious in that setting either. Well, apart from the shouting and the smell...

 

 

 

*I generally do not require PER rolls if your roll would succeed on 11- as that is, i suppose, my definition of 'obvious'.

[Markdoc]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

The rules for shrinking do not talk about 'being obvious' they talk about not deliberately trying not to be perceived. I quite agree that using a power, attacking in combat and such are things that make you obvious because of the sfx rules, but being in plain sight, whilst it is arguable whether he is obvious (an inanimate object that small would not necessarily be obvious, even if it were in plain sight but if it were, for instance, glowing, then that would cancel out size penalties because it is then clearly obvious), but just standing there is clearly NOT 'deliberately trying not to be perceived'.

 

The logic is impeccable but I'm questioning one of the assumptions on which it is based. 60 points of shrinking make you about .05m or 5 cm long. My car keys are 8cm long and, believe me, even if they are not hiding they are not often obvious when I come into the room they are in, even if I'm looking for them.

 

And as I understand it, that's a situation-dependant outcome. Even a normal sized person is not necessarily going to be obvious - if they are behind the door, when you come in, for example. In most cases both the full size and the tiny person is going to be obvious, if they are not trying to hide - but not always. And if a PER roll is needed the tiny person (or the car keys) are not going to be as easy to see.

 

In other words' date=' I'd argue that to notice something, you need to make a PER roll. Generally a PER roll total of 11- means that*, in normal unstressed circumstances, you don't need to make the roll - the thing is obvious. Very small objects give penalties to PER and, unless they are drawing attention to themselves, or you know where to look, or the room is completely devoid of anything BUT the small object (i.e., like your firefly example, the object is high contrast) you do not automatically notice them. You need a roll and that roll takes modifiers, including size modifiers.[/quote']

 

And I would argue that you are a) wrong and this is why the issue appears confusing. The rules pretty clearly state that the GM may require a PER roll, not that a PER roll is normally required, but that the roll can be waived (which is the language used for skill rolls, where a roll is the default)

 

In other words, if your car keys are on on the table but behind a book, the GM may rule they are "inobvious" and require a PER roll. If they are lying there in plain sight, he may rule that they are obvious and do not.

 

*I generally do not require PER rolls if your roll would succeed on 11- as that is' date=' i suppose, my definition of 'obvious'.[/quote']

 

Whereas my definition of obvious - based on "may require a PER roll" is that obvious means no PER roll is needed - and thus penalties to PER are moot.

 

Using your guideline, a normal person would need a PER roll of 23- to be able to find a pen (-12 size penalty) in front of them without a roll - or only 18- if the pen was brightly glowing in a dark room (+5 maximum contrast bonus). Do you really make your PCs roll to be able to find a pen every time they want to take a note? "Hang on, I''ll note that down - I have a pen in my pocket somewhere - I'll need to take 5 minutes to search for it so I get the extra time bonus....."

 

Or do all your PCs have PER rolls of 23 or better?

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

I agree' date=' but, even though you are small, and so can fit through small gaps, the effects of 'small' are defined by the power not by your size i.e. these effects are not in addition to the benefits and drawbacks of being small. I support that with the PER modifiers: it would not make sense for those PER modifiers to be in addition to small size or you'd be reaping the benefits twice.[/quote']

 

And taking this seperately, being small has multiple power-like effects. Under Entangle it notes that people with sufficient shrinking can simply walk out of most entangles. You don't have to buy "+50 STR only to escape entangles".

 

I'd agree the size modifier does not count twice: if you are sneaking (and you paid for it) you can add the size modifier to your roll. If you are not sneaking, the size modifier may (not necessarily will) be used to modify someone else's raw PER roll. Since stealth and concealment are everyman skills, as noted above, sneaking will never make you easier to see and might make you harder to see, depending on how good you are at it. At the very least, hiding behind something is likely to make you inobvious and thus require a PER roll to see you.

 

I think see your problem - you are looking at this as "free points from being small". I simply look at it as "being small gives some bonuses and some penalties", which, on the whole, cancel out. That way I treat small (via shrinking) and small (via just being small) objects the same when it comes to perception.

 

cheers, Mark

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

Actually, in support of Markdoc, with PER Checks, if you total all modifiers including range and the result is a bonus to PER, then a PER check is not required --> a character automatically notices. This is a long standing and oft-overlooked aspect of PER checks.

 

"Obvious" seems to be synonymous with "net bonus to notice".

 

 

 

I read the wording Sean cited under shrinking and I can agree that it is suspect, however it flies in the face of common sense and even mechanical logic, and is directly against the way both I and other GM's I've played with have interpreted it in the past. I think a question to Steve is going to be the only resolution of this.