Smarter than your average Brick

[Vulcan]

Re: Smarter than your average Brick

 

Yeah, it's not like the manhole cover can abort to dodge or anything. And the brick can handle it with casual STR...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Smarter than your average Brick

 

The way I read the FAQ is that the only reason the Throw at someone takes another Phase is that you are making another Attack Roll. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

You therefore could Grab and Squeeze (or Throw, but not "at" another character) someone in Phase 1 (one Attack Roll), and then Throw them at another character on your next phase, damaging both with one Attack Roll. There is still value in this, it just takes longer to set up than I thought.

 

I certainly agree. This means the Grabbed target has some time to react, as do his teammates, but the ability remains. Of course, an uncooperative character is reasonably neither balanced nor aerodynamic.

 

You should be able to pick up a manhole (a half phase' date=' non-attack action), and throw it at someone (Attack Roll) in one phase.[/quote']

 

Whether Grabbing and picking up the manhole cover is an "attack action" is a question of interpretation, however I like the idea of basing the difficulty on non-casual STR. However, requiring even a non-attack half phase to pick it up means the manhole cover needs to be right at your feet for this to be a same phase tactic.

 

Simple counter: the target, or someone else with a reserved action (and they need a reserved action if you do this all in one phase) attacks the manhole cover, ideally in flight. Hitting shouldn't be a big deal - as noted previously, it's not dodging or resisting, although a velocity-based DCV seems reasonable. Once hit, I only subtract 1d6 for Knockback since it's flying. How much did it weigh? It may have extra knockback like Shrinking provides. 1" knockback will toss it off course.

 

That's not to say the tactic has no merit, just that it's not as effective as some people seem to think. And rightly so - if you want a reliable ranged attack, pay for one. STR only gives you the ability to cobble a ranged attack together, and it's not going to be as efficient, as effective, or as universal as an attack you paid for.

 

The "the brick throws things and gets free range and AoE for his STR" approach always bugs me. It provides an artificial indication of STR being overvalued. Applying some logic to the rules for throwing things, comparable to the "well, he's strong enough to pick it up so he should be able to throw it" logic goes a long way to rebalancing matters. [in my view, a large object should not be AoE, by the way. It should provide the same OCV modifier for size as its DCV modifier for size. When the Hulk lobs a bus at Spidey, Spidey dives in one window and out the opposite one - the size of the bus does not convert to Spidey losing his DCV benefits.]

[Arkham]

Re: Smarter than your average Brick

 

From the rules FAQ, this is a two phase action - one to Grab the target and a second to direct a Throw at a second target. May as well Squeeze in the first phase when you Grab the guy.

 

Technically, the same two phase logic applies if you want to Throw a manhole cover, car, etc.

 

The smart Brick will have a variety of tactics so he doesn't get predictable (to his opponents) or annoying (to the GM and other players).

 

Or it could be done as a Sweep in one phase with a -2 OCV and 1/2 DCV.

 

Or instead of Grab and throw, the brick can punch one target into another using the aimed knockback rules.

[Vulcan]

Re: Smarter than your average Brick

 

I certainly agree. This means the Grabbed target has some time to react, as do his teammates, but the ability remains. Of course, an uncooperative character is reasonably neither balanced nor aerodynamic.

 

 

 

Whether Grabbing and picking up the manhole cover is an "attack action" is a question of interpretation, however I like the idea of basing the difficulty on non-casual STR. However, requiring even a non-attack half phase to pick it up means the manhole cover needs to be right at your feet for this to be a same phase tactic.

 

Simple counter: the target, or someone else with a reserved action (and they need a reserved action if you do this all in one phase) attacks the manhole cover, ideally in flight. Hitting shouldn't be a big deal - as noted previously, it's not dodging or resisting, although a velocity-based DCV seems reasonable. Once hit, I only subtract 1d6 for Knockback since it's flying. How much did it weigh? It may have extra knockback like Shrinking provides. 1" knockback will toss it off course.

 

That's not to say the tactic has no merit, just that it's not as effective as some people seem to think. And rightly so - if you want a reliable ranged attack, pay for one. STR only gives you the ability to cobble a ranged attack together, and it's not going to be as efficient, as effective, or as universal as an attack you paid for.

 

The "the brick throws things and gets free range and AoE for his STR" approach always bugs me. It provides an artificial indication of STR being overvalued. Applying some logic to the rules for throwing things, comparable to the "well, he's strong enough to pick it up so he should be able to throw it" logic goes a long way to rebalancing matters. [in my view, a large object should not be AoE, by the way. It should provide the same OCV modifier for size as its DCV modifier for size. When the Hulk lobs a bus at Spidey, Spidey dives in one window and out the opposite one - the size of the bus does not convert to Spidey losing his DCV benefits.]

 

Oh, of course there are counters for anything a brick - even a smart brick - can do. And the thrown object can certainly be 'shot' off course (unless the brick bought a Object of Opportunity E-Blast, in which case that would require Missile Deflection). The thing we're discussing here is ideas for a smart brick to use as tactics.

 

And a smart brick would consider how these tactics could be countered, and how to counter the counters...

 

SO: How do we counter the 'shoot-down improvised missile' tactic? For the manhole cover it's easier than one might think. A skilled frisbee thrower can make one do all sort of interesting turns and stuff on a throw. One of my favorites (when I was in moderately good shape and played with frisbees semi-regualrly) was to throw it low so it skimmed only a few inches over the ground, and popped up to head height in the last few feet before getting to the reciever. If the reciever didn't expect it, he would be crouching down to catch the low shot and it would sail over his head.

 

Another good trick it to skip it off something. I used to skip frisbees off concrete all the time, similar to skipping stones across a pond. Skipping a manhole cover should be possible, making it look like you botched the throw only to have it slam into the target after the skip.

 

Bouncing a manhole cover probably won't work. It would likely just imbed itself in whatever you're trying to bounce it off of, unless it's Unobtanium or Yeahrightium of whatever ultrahard material is out there.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Smarter than your average Brick

 

SO: How do we counter the 'shoot-down improvised missile' tactic? For the manhole cover it's easier than one might think. A skilled frisbee thrower can make one do all sort of interesting turns and stuff on a throw.

 

My emphasis. Then buy WF: Thrown Disks and some skill levels.

 

One of my favorites (when I was in moderately good shape and played with frisbees semi-regualrly) was to throw it low so it skimmed only a few inches over the ground' date=' and popped up to head height in the last few feet before getting to the reciever. If the reciever didn't expect it, he would be crouching down to catch the low shot and it would sail over his head.[/quote']

 

I suspect this might not work with a much heavier manhole cover, but I'm no expert in aeronautics.

 

Another good trick it to skip it off something. I used to skip frisbees off concrete all the time' date=' similar to skipping stones across a pond. Skipping a manhole cover should be possible, making it look like you botched the throw only to have it slam into the target after the skip.[/quote']

 

1 skill level to bounce - may count as a surprise maneuver.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Smarter than your average Brick

 

My favorite brick has the following to contribute:

 

WF: Peterbilt.

 

Really, what you want is Penalty Skill Levels to offset the penalties for unwieldy or unbalanced or unaerodynamic or uncooperative projectiles and/or weapons.

 

Step 2: Make sure you use something your opponents have a vested interest as a weapon, like their getaway vehicle. Always good for a laugh, even if it misses, watching their reactions as their ride goes skidding downrange with none of them in it...

 

It also helps if you either have a lot of insurance or else don't care all that much about collateral damage.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Smarter than your average Brick

 

Watch some pro-wrestling bouts. Adapt to supers.

 

Spend a few points on Stealth and Concealment, then use them. Few things are more terrifying and effective than a brick showing up unexpectedly right next to someone.

 

If fighting alone or with a team that can afford to cover for you, retreat and take a breather. Given the high REC of most bricks, one extra recovery can make a big difference. Works well with the rope-a-dope too.

[Vulcan]

Re: Smarter than your average Brick

 

My emphasis. Then buy WF: Thrown Disks and some skill levels.

 

Good idea there.

 

I suspect this might not work with a much heavier manhole cover, but I'm no expert in aeronautics.

 

Realsitically you're probably right, but then again this is a comic book...

 

1 skill level to bounce - may count as a surprise maneuver.

 

Exactly right.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Smarter than your average Brick

 

Step 2: Make sure you use something your opponents have a vested interest as a weapon' date=' like their getaway vehicle. Always good for a laugh, even if it misses, watching their reactions as their ride goes skidding downrange with none of them in it...[/quote']

 

Plus, it's hard for the villain to sue for damage to his getaway car!

[Comic]

Re: Smarter than your average Brick

 

Even a small amount of extra reach makes for terrifying bricks.

 

Knockback resistance, likewise, is a knack you'll want to learn if you're a smart brick.

 

Maybe carry a chain with a hook wrapped around your forear.. hrm. Where does that sound familiar from?

 

Pretty much everything that gives CV advantage gives a brick more advantage than others in proportion, because bricks typically have lower CV's: Acrobatics, Breakfall (to get up from prone), cover, higher ground, PRE attack, all the various CV modifiers.

 

Read Sun Tzu's Art of War and apply it in brick scale:

 

Enter no battle until you have already won.

Use the terrain.

Morality is a weapon.

Divide and conquer. (So, that's Caesar's Gallic War, also good read.)

Keep the objective in mind.

If conditions change not in your favor, withdraw and evaluate.

 

Tracking senses and skills, shadowing and other methods to find who you're looking for when they _aren't_ geared up to battle a brick are to your advantage.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Smarter than your average Brick

 

Read Sun Tzu's Art of War and apply it in brick scale:

 

Enter no battle until you have already won.

Use the terrain.

Morality is a weapon.

Keep the objective in mind.

If conditions change not in your favor, withdraw and evaluate.

 

 

Are you sure about that one line? I can't help thinking that Sun Tzu said 'morale' and not 'morality'. Sun Tzu didn't see war as an exercise in moral behavior, from what I can recall of his book.

 

That said I'd imagine that reading Sun Tzu would be a wise investment for any superhero.

 

Divide and conquer. (So' date=' that's Caesar's Gallic War, also good read.)[/quote']

 

All I want to know is, did Caesar ever mention that village of indomitable Gauls?

[Comic]

Re: Smarter than your average Brick

 

Citing the Giles translation: "The Moral Law causes the people to be in complete accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger."

 

And.. I believe Caesar abridged heavily for the sake of .. brevity.

[Guest Major Tom]

Re: Smarter than your average Brick

 

According to Wikipepedia, manhole covers typically weigh about 50 kilograms (110 pounds).

 

My first Champions character, Ranger, was a STR 70 PA brick who regularly used this trick until he eventually equipped his armor with a 10d6 charged particle beam. The beam was more effective and had better range, but it wasn't as much fun as slamming 100+ pounds of cast iron into the bad guy at 90 MPH.

 

 

A maneuver that should be called (AFAIC) the Phantom Zone Escapee

Maneuver (remember Superman II?).

 

 

 

Major Tom

[tesuji]

Re: Smarter than your average Brick

 

Smart brick #1 uses gadgets. a easily built brick can have either a plethora of small little things to help out or a right fine gadget pool.

 

One particular fave of mine is the grenadier. he carries a variety of OAF 4c grenade packs with a variety of options.

 

Smoke grenades (darkness or CE both favor punchers over ranged guys. turn 4c into 2 ch continuous)

Flash-bang grenades (great for lowering enemy dcvs)

concussion grenades (AOE EB) great for dispensing agents so you can get to work

 

those are the normal tech everyday kind.

 

now add in some entangle grenades or sonic grenades (nnd aoe) etc if you have reasonable access to super tech.

 

Brick trick #2 the taunt

you can usually afford a limited mind control for enraging the enemy and usually you dont have to have all that much, like ego+10 for this to succeed. its basically a version of "make them hit me" written up as mind control with SFX taunting. the more attacks you bring down on you as opposed to the other guy, the better. heck if you can taunt the enemy into trying a haymaker, let the team blast him.

 

Brick trick #3 mirror image

for a moderate price, usually under 30 cp, you can have yourself, if you have advamced tech available, a hologram belt that creates 1-2 exact copies of you within your hex all doing the same and shifting about. this way, anyone shooting at you only has a 505-33% chance of hitting the right target unless they make a heck of a per roll. Ranged combatants also sugger their range penalties so its even harder for them to spot the fakes. cutting your hits taken by 505 will let your massive recovery seem even more important. techincally, images are not foci providing defenses so you dont have the foci auto-die thing in play.

 

As for general tactics, a lot depends on your non-brick capabilities and mission. if the bad guy is after you, getting inside so that ranged guys have to come close is usualy quite good. ducking into the sewers for instance can really spoil the energy guy day. also breaks LOS for mentalists.

 

always maneuver near to larger throwable objects, to use as AOE attacks when needed against speedster types.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Smarter than your average Brick

 

Average Flying Brick

 

[Nagisawa Takumi]

Re: Smarter than your average Brick

 

Am I the only person who reads the title with a Yogi Bear voice in his head?

[Comic]

Re: Smarter than your average Brick

 

There are people who don't have Yogi Bear's voice in their head?

[nexus]

Re: Smarter than your average Brick

 

I was wondering who was screaming "It's time to cleanse the streets!" over and over again. I didn't sound like the neighbor's dog again.