Sell my friends on DCV

[Katherine]

Some of you may have seen some of my post elsewhere in which I explain my problem. But here's a recap: Our group switched to Hero System as our primary game of choice fairly recently but there are two newer members that are making waves about one particular aspect of the game; specifically Defensive Combat Value.

 

They don't think it makes sense especially when it dealing with things like guns and other high speed attacks, that it's silly for normal humans to be able to dodge bullets. That should be a super power in their opinion.

 

Most of like DCV and the combat mechanic over all but these two are steadfast in their objection so I need help. Please defend the mechanic here and I'll direct them to this thread. Maybe they'll actually get off their butts long enough to even make accounts and respond…

 

Stranger things have happened.

[tarragon]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

They don't think it makes sense especially when it dealing with things like guns and other high speed attacks' date=' that it's silly for normal humans to be able to dodge bullets. [/quote']

 

Here's my thinking on this. In a way they are right, normal people can't dodge bullets. Once the bullet is moving they can't get out of the way. But that's not what DCV is modeling.

 

What a normal/heroic person is doing with DCV is making themselves harder to aim at. That bullet starts going in the wrong direction. A lower DEX person is not moving as fast or as erratically as a higher DEX person. The lower DEX person is easier to draw a bead on.

 

When you add maneuvers the defender is making a specific effort to move erratically; Dodge isn't seeing the bullet coming at you and moving aside, it's seeing the guy aiming towards you and getting the heck out of town.

[rauer]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

IMO rreay has it right; DCV isn't about dodging bullets (or laser blasts), it is about the attacker's chance of launching an accurate attack.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

Also,

 

Often the issues brought up by new players regarding DCV and guns is due to a lack of understanding of the rules for Cover.

 

from:

 

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised ■ Chapter Two

page 393

 

This Maneuver allows the character to aim an attack successfully at an opponent, but not fire right away. It’s used to simulate the common situation of holding someone at gunpoint, bowpoint, or swordpoint.

 

To Cover an opponent, the character must declare his intention and then make an Attack Roll. He makes this roll at a -2 OCV penalty in addition to any other modifiers (such as the Hit Location penalty, if he aims at a specific Hit Location). If the attacker makes the roll, the target is Covered. The attacker does no damage then, but at any time thereafter, he may automatically do damage to the target — no additional Attack Roll is required, and doing the damage takes no time.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

Maybe you should rent a few Arnold Schwarzenegger, John Woo etc films and ruthless point out how high their DCV must be. It a very obvious simulation of this sort of thing

[braincraft]

We'll call this Plan B

 

Pull out a gun and start shooting at your friends, and see if they bother to run or dive for cover.

 

They probably won't be your friends after this, though.

[NestorDRod]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

Maybe you should rent a few Arnold Schwarzenegger' date=' John Woo etc films and ruthless point out how high their DCV must be. It a very obvious simulation of this sort of thing[/quote']

 

More generally, invoke what we in our gaming group refer to as the Grenade Law, inspired by the flavor text in the Grenades card from the Shadowfist CCG (that was the inspiration for the Feng Shui RPG):

 

"Grenades work much better in the movies than in real life. This ain't real life."

 

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

Watch the gunfights in a movie. While nobody is dodging bullets (in the more realistic movies, anywho), they are using cover, only popping up to shoot when they feel they have an opening, sticking to corners, duck-running from one area of cover to another...

 

DCV does not equal dodging, it equals your ability to stay out of harm's way in whatever fashion best suits the combat at hand.

 

Just like how AC in D&D is not just dodging or parrying, it is also affected by luck, skill, armor, shield, etc.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

I think rreay pretty much hit the nail on the head, you're not dodging bullets, you're dodging someone shooting at you. If either of your friends hunt, ask them which is easier to shoot, a still or moving target. Hell, even if they just play First Person Shooters, no matter how good you are it's easier to hit the noob sitting in the corner than the experienced guy crouching, weaving, jumping, etc.

 

You may not convince them, and that's fine if the rest of the group agrees and they go along with it, but if they keep bringing up, especially in-game, and it's killing the mood or starting arguments mid-battle, then maybe they just aren't right for your gaming group.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

You've also run into a classic New Hero Player mistake - you're pre-emptively adding a Special Effect to DCV: "Dodging"

 

Here's a number of special effects that could justify DCV (from Superheroic to Heroic)

Vibrations - I vibrate so quickly my outline is fuzzy, I almost appear to two places at once

Ghostman - I'm partially desolid, the bullet looks like it hit me but passed through me instead

I Am Time - I don't just move fast, I move the time stream out of my way.

Body Armor - you caught the metal plate in my body armor, the bullet skipped off without hurting me.

Shield - you hit my shield, not me.

Luck - I can't dodge for beans, but sometimes I just stop moving at the right moment.

Dance Dance! - I move so erratically it's your aim that sucks, not your bullets.

Kinetic Energy Field - The bullets slow down when they get within three feet of me, I can easily dodge something moving that slow.

Bullet Time - No, I just dodge the things.

Remo Williams - I heard the tendons in your hand move, you make it too easy.

 

DCV is a Mechanic that works against OCV - the net result is Shooters Ability To Hit vs Targets Ability To Not Wanting To Be Hit.

 

Look at it as the whole package: a normal persons DCV 3 vs a normal persons OCV 3 gives the shooter an 11- chance to shoot someone (barring range penalties, or other outside factors): not bad odds for not being able to Dodge a bullet.

[incrdbil]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

I was going to say something but it's been done. I hope your friends read this and it helps them.

[Comic]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

Repeating somewhat what has gone before, with examples.

 

For some characters, DCV could be exactly what your friends agree -- quite sensibly -- couldn't work for normal people. The ability to reliably dodge out of the way of bullets is a power or superhuman-level characteristic or skill beyond the range or ordinary humans.

 

The Flash, Superman, Neo, Spiderman, Jedi Masters, Blade.. can all be built using the Hero System with DCV explained by their incredible rapid perceptions and reflexes, plus at least some degree of toughness beyond normal humans.

 

For other special effects of DCV -- small size (the Atom), partial invulnerability (Wolverine), misdirecting the shooter's hand (Batman), dumb luck (James Bond) for example -- they may also be describing something between 'improbable' but faintly plausible odds against success and outright genre conventions.

 

DCV covers all of these as a mechanic. This allows James Bond to meet Luke Skywalker, if they want, in a meaningful way, in one game system.

 

DCV is just one aspect of the universality and flexibility of the Hero System that makes it so much more playable than many others, while still satisfying play balance and conceptual creativity.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

Hero's not supposed to be realistic, it's supposed to be cinematic.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

Hero's not supposed to be realistic' date=' it's supposed to be cinematic.[/quote']

 

HERO is capable of doing realistic.

 

It just so happens that the default rules lend themselves to cinematic more easily than anything else.

 

In the real world most sharpshooters spend far more time practicing the art of shooting than they do the art of not getting shot. One method of modeling this in HERO is shown as an optional rule.

 

from:

 

page 54 ■ Character Creation: Skills, Perquisites, And Talents

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised

 

DCV Levels: As an optional rule, the GM can distinguish between a character’s DCV against HTH attacks and his DCV against Ranged attacks. In this case, a character cannot use a CSL to provide a DCV bonus against Ranged attacks unless the CSL applies to All Combat (an 8-point Level). Moreover, a character with a CSL that applies specifically to a Ranged attack or class of Ranged attacks can never use the Level to improve his DCV.

 

This optional rule reflects the fact that it’s difficult to dodge a bullet or arrow, regardless of your expertise at shooting bullets or arrows. The GM should always use it when characters buy CSLs with Limitations (an accurate gun doesn’t make its user harder to hit, for instance).

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

If the gun is pointing at the character when the trigger is pulled, the character is extremely unlikely to be able to move out of the way of the bullet. DCV does not (generally) represent that ability, but rather the ability to make it more difficult for the shooter to point the gun at the character and pull the trigger at the same time. Ducking, weaving, and making oneself a small target can all accomplish this.

[nexus]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

Look at it as the whole package: a normal persons DCV 3 vs a normal persons OCV 3 gives the shooter an 11- chance to shoot someone (barring range penalties, or other outside factors): not bad odds for not being able to Dodge a bullet.

 

What Ghost angel say is true. From that last time I looked into it, statistically guns in Hero System are slightly more accurate than in real life at close range in combat conditions, maybe that will help your friends buy into it a bit more. Aside from that everyone has covered the ground pretty throughly.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

I've thought about this particular problem a little when I started playing Hero in a non-supers setting.

 

Realistically it is not that much harder to hit the most agile normal in the world than one of the least agile, because bullets travel so fast. Body size would have more effect, generally.

 

As has been pointed out it is at least in part about making yourself a difficult target - if you run forward in a crouch or mould yourself into a piece of cover then you'll be harder to hit, and agility/DEX can have an effect - out in the open, however, it is unlikely to do so.

 

One option for a more realistic feel (and you'll understand, other than paintball, I've never actually shot anyone, so read into 'realistic' what you will) is to assume that all stationary human sized targets are DCV 3 against ranged weapons. If you crouch you reduce your profile: +2 DCV. If you are prone you reduce your profile even more: +2 DCV (unless the shooter is very close or above you). If you are moving at at least half move then you are harder to hit: +2 DCV. Dodge has no effect on the chance to hit with a gun, but you can still dive for cover (but you do require cover).

 

That means that most opponents in combat will be DCV 5, assuming they are either moving or crouching. That works out OK for a heroic level game - or you could mess with the numbers to get the feel you want.

 

You might also decide that a character behind full cover who pops out and ducks back can do so at full DCV as that is all about the time you have to target them, and that is a function of agility.

 

You would still use DCV for melee and thrown weapons.

 

NOW, if that was not the point (and given the thread title, it probably was not) then you can tell teh players that, like everything else in Hero, DCV has sfx - if you are just standing there waiting for the bullet then trying to get out of the way then you are just standing there and your DCV drops to 0. You only get your full DCV if you are moving in a manner that makes you harder to hit - advancing at a crouched zig-zag run, rolling etc, etc. it makes you harder to draw a bead on.

 

Also in a realistic game you should not have a 100kg, 6'6" character with near maximum DEX. Thus smaller characters are more agile and realsitically more difficult to hit.

[eternal_sage]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

pointing a gun at someone and actually hitting them is difficult. while bullets are fast, a target only moving a small amount becomes very difficult to hit because lead time is required to actually connect. this process takes considerable skill and practice (+3 OCV with handguns, for example) which negates this, but that is what DCV actually is.

 

if the target is sitting perfectly still (as in doesn't know you have a gun), and you are within really close range, then DCV might get halved (or OCV gets a bonus, its all the same in essence). and that really is the point here. a high DCV is just as much a lack of aim on the part of the shooter as it is great dodge skills on the part of the targer, and vice versa, a high OCV is a lack of dodging enough on the part of the target as it is high skill on the part of the attacker. no attack is in a vaccum, and both attacker and defender go into whether the attack hits or misses.

 

one big psychological hurdle for playing a game of any kind, not just an RPG or even just HERO, is the fact that the real world must be boiled down into mechanics that make the game fun. this reduction makes some aspects of the game seem counter to logic without examining them. for example, combat in reality is not a nice orderly procession of swings where everyone waits their turn, thus it makes no sense for everyone to just stand and look at each other. however, what you are missing is the fact that combat is constantly moving, and no one is ever just standing still. if you move in, swing, then on your next turn move back, you didn't stand for 6 seconds wondering when you get to go again, you ran in, pivoted on your front foot as you followed through, then retreated, all without pause. the round merely abbreviates this into discrete snap shots that are easily digested. the derivatives of the formula of combat, if you will.

[Vulcan]

Re: We'll call this Plan B

 

Pull out a gun and start shooting at your friends, and see if they bother to run or dive for cover.

 

They probably won't be your friends after this, though.

 

Make it a Nerf gun, or (if you're outside) a paintball gun. They'll still get the point!

[tesuji]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

actually there are many issues with cv that one can complain about but the one mentioned falls way down on my list.

 

mostly they do with dex covering so broad a range -

 

ballerina man being a potent combatent due to his gracefull dancing (covered in part by above average dex) giving him both higher OCV and dcv.

 

dex serves too many masters as both quickness, grace, nimbleness, deftness of hand and agility.

 

i would be more concerned with the realism of making ballerinas into snipers than i would whether or not dodging occurs before or after the bullet leaves the gun.

 

but the simplest nod to guns are faster would be to disallow the dodge maneuver as an abort action against attacks you feel are too fast to be dodged.

 

So you would be able to, on your phase, declare dodgning in general and be harder to shoot but NOT to be able to let someone start to shoot you and then declare dodge.

 

that might give them the "difference between guns and punches" flavor they want.

 

but you do have to wonder if it is some much harder to hit a dancing graceful fluid ballerina at dcv 6 than it is to hit the normal at dcv 3.

 

heck, sometimes a stumbling unpredictable movement is harder to hit.

[nexus]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

The general problem with trying to make "realistic" rules is getting a group of people to agree on what "reality" entails.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

The general problem with trying to make "realistic" rules is getting a group of people to agree on what "reality" entails.

 

most arguments about reality often breakdown into "I reject your reality and insert my own."

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

The fact of the matter is, in real life, 99% of all bullets fired in combat of any sort (whether military, police, criminal gangs, etc) miss their target. If your players insist on realism, double or triple everyone's DCV. If they're willing to accept some level of cinematics, then use DCV as written.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

Or, conversely, remind them that they can always change guns in their own games to be undodgeable. Say, give all firearms a built-in +5 OCV bonus or something. (Don't know if I'd personally play in such a game, but the system doesn't preclude that kind of gun happy solution.)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

Or' date=' conversely, remind them that they can always change guns in their [i']own[/i] games to be undodgeable. Say, give all firearms a built-in +5 OCV bonus or something. (Don't know if I'd personally play in such a game, but the system doesn't preclude that kind of gun happy solution.)

 

Along that same line of reasoning you could also say all guns have AOE 1 Hex Accurate (instead of +5 OCV) as a way to make them undodgeable. In this way everyone has a base 3 DCV vs. guns no matter what their DEX is. Dive For Cover still works though.