Making a character too efficient?

[Mendou]

When I first joined this board a couple of months ago, my first posts were asking for advice on a character concept I'd been working with for some time. I got some wonderful advice (and thanks to all who offered advice to a mostly-clueless poster), and redesigned Pyrie appropriately.

 

However, I recently reconsidered the character sheet in relation to the character concept. I'd built a wonderfully efficient character with multiple attack powers concentrated in a Multipower and all sorts of neat abilities; however, I'm not sure that that was the character as originally conceived. So I revisited the character build, and came up with something much less efficient but a lot closer to the original concept.

 

So my question is this: Has anyone gotten so carried away with the sheer possibilities of the system that their characters have ended up quite far from the original concept in the name of efficiency, and what do you do to avoid the temptation to get "full value for every point"?

[Marcus]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

I've done so, more than a few times. Usually what I do then is step away from the sheet for a bit, so the character can live in my head as a character, absent a sheet/powers, for a while.

 

Sometimes, when I get back to the sheet, stuff starts vanishing... because it didnt really fit.

 

 

Sometimes, I've added stuff, and I've come to realize that it should have been there all along, and it stays.

 

XPs can be the same way.. sometimes, after a long time and a lot of XPs, you realize that its grown into not the character anymore...

[Comic]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

I've run into the creative death of concept, of roleplaying opportunity, and of fun, from over-efficiency on more than one occasion.

 

It's a terrible temptation, not just from powergaminess but also sheer laziness (I'll just take the pieces that I know work mechanically and run with them).

 

It's reinforced by my tastes in characters to play, who tend to be encouraged by the design of the game... which is not entirely a bad thing; I believe the design of the game encourages the build and play of good concepts overall.

 

What do I do to trim this tendency?

 

I look to the other characters, and try to focus on having a story, background, and in play persona with a similar level of quality to the other players' characters.

 

If you keep the important aspects of roleplay in mind, then however flawed a character sheet -- in terms of efficiency, game knowledge, or even *gasp* spelling -- the play and the fun are likely to be good.

[hfergus]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

Have I gone wild with efficiency to sacrificing concept? Yes. But I never kept it as an extreme. Normally I adjusted the concept. Sometimes to allow for the efficiency, sometimes because I like the new concept better. Have I said "%#$@ the efficiency, concept is king!"? Yup. In that case, the GM and I can come to an understanding normally, and we "fudge" the points (I get concept points - Sorta like Elemental Control, VPP and multi powers are. ) Normally just a few points - about 7 max has always seem to have done the trick. (Normally they are "debt". As I earn points, at least 1/2 go to the debt until paid off.) I tend to sacrifice the concept very little, but do efficiency and have enjoyed the new concepts based on efficiency better. That is one of the reasons I "squeeze" for efficiency other that to save points. (Once I "squeezed" a character as a test of the rules and prove a point. Way too powerful for the points, and my group, with my blessing, banned things like it even though they were "within the rules.")

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

I have been tweaking characters for greater efficiency for many years. Mostly because I was GMing and not Playing and it was my only outlet.

 

Now a days I design characters around a concept and make sure they can survive long enough to meet it. If that make them to efficient I have not had any complaints.

 

Occasionally my characters try to do too much at the start and I in turn try to make them more efficient.

 

Sometime you just have to roll a hard six.

 

QM

[Querysphinx]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

I frequently hone my characters to a monomolecular edge, just for fun. I don't generally play them that way, but I do build them that way. When it comes to characters I actually intend to use, I talk to the GM and say "This is what I'm trying to do, how do you want me to do it? Here's what I've come up with." Usually we fudge for concept or play a few rounds of Me vs thugz, Me vs Genericman, and Me vs Godlike alien, just to make sure the resultant abstraction is balanced.

 

It's a social game, see...

[Trebuchet]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

I've done it both ways - not that there's a hard line between these two positions. Personally, I've never regretted it when I focused on character rather than (or more than) efficiency. For me most characters seem to "gel" better when the concept is strong and I end up playing them better.

 

Not to mention having more fun, which is the whole point of the exercise.

[Vulcan]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

Efficency is nice, in that your character is better in combat and can do more things. To some extent, this is part of the game.

 

However, without a clear concept behind the build of the character, you quickly fall into doing things 'because you can,' not 'because it fits the character.' More than once I've made a character, then while filling out the basic background realized that the character I built wasn't really the character I was trying to build.

 

On the other hand, you can carry concept too far. We had a guy in our group make a 350 point character with a shipload of concept skills, perks, and talents, normal stats and defenses, and one power - an INT Drain. It took about three fights (the character was hospitalized after each one) before he realized that concept isn't everything...

[Mr. R]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

Basically that is what happened in my thread about Maelstrom. He went through three separate write-ups before he got settled. So yes it does happen.

[AThousandYoung]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

Yeah, I felt this too. See my thread called "The Everquest Taunt".

[shadowmage87]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

I'm new to the system, so I'm not exactly capable of making characters too efficient yet...at leat on purpose...simply have not read through it enough to catch everything. Doesn't say that I haven't tried though. I'm very big on actual roleplaying, so I generally start with a concept, build the character from there, and thanks to a couple years of dealing with DnD players, I have a mild form of the powergaming bug. I've rebuilt my second character a good 6 times trying to make him better at what I know he does from his character and power concepts.

[HawksmoorSD]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

I've actually written a character and thought a few abilities outside of the concept would be cool to toss in for fun. When the game started about 3 weeks later I promptly forgot said powers for 9 months before I came across the notes and points I'd spent on the abilities.

 

Yes I can be blind sometimes.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

It took about three fights (the character was hospitalized after each one) before he realized that concept isn't everything...

 

 

Yes, you also have to account for the type of game it is. The concept, while great, must be functional within that MODE of play.

[Utech]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

I prefer a simple build. I got tired of playing Swiss army characters.

 

When I'm GMing a game and someone hands over a dense character sheet my eyes glaze over and I say, "OK. I'm not even going to read this right now. Tell me about your character." If the character concept clearly interests the player and gets me interested as well, I'll usually plow through the optimization. If the character concept is all about the optimized numbers, I'll usually spend a lot of time talking with the player until we're both happy about (and clear on) the concept.

 

When a player seems very concerned about getting full value for every point, I offer my assurances that they don't need to be concerned. It's my job to make sure everyone has fun.

 

When a player seems very excited about getting full value for every point, I'm happy. It's my job to make sure everyone has fun.

[Blue]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

I've long been accused by my GMs of not optimizing (read: min-maxing) everything on my characters. I don't want to do everything and I don't want to do something perfectly. I just like to have areas I'm good at and areas I'm not good at.

[assault]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

I prefer to spend a lot of time crunching the numbers during my design process, and producing a character that is both simple and effective.

 

Complexity is neither desirable nor necessary, IMHO.

[Mendou]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

Given that I think the version of the character I'm happiest with so far was built on 100+150 points, I'd agree with that sentiment. My character just needs to produce fire and do a couple of tricks with it; there's no reason that should require a Multipower, and in concept doesn't really need an EC either.

[Tech]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

Hmmmm, too efficient...

 

I'm not sure if I can answer that. Being efficient is generally a good thing. If by 'making a character too efficient' you mean maximizing the value for every point, I have done that a few times in the past but I actively avoid that now because I consider it cheating.

 

I go for character concept, not points. If in the course of creating my character, it's efficient, when then I say 'hoorah!' Some of my character concepts start at less than 250 points, some barely fit in at 350 points. It depends on what the character concept calls for.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

Not my own characters since I know what their concept is and I hit it. I have "optimized" other peoples characters into forms they don't recognize any longer but to be fair I was running with what they said or indicated in their builds / backgrounds and the parts I trimmed off were unspokens that they considered intrinsic in their own minds but failed to impart. NBD -- just unwind the build a bit to incorporate their input.

 

I must admit however that I'm so used to the HERO System that I tend to think in terms of character concepts that fit efficiently into the available mechanics so its possible, likely even, that I instinctively avoid concepts that would be inefficient to design..

[nexus]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

IME, this mainly becomes an issue when there are players with different levels of ability and interest in optimization playing the group. Some players can end up feeling left behind or useless while the highly optimized character can (sometimes entirely inadvertently) steal the spotlight. There's also the problem of what might be a good challenge one PC will flatten another.

 

Some prudent GMing can help avoid this such as helping people with less system experience build their characters and just talking to the group and assuring them it's not an arms race. I've been told that I'm good at advising people how to work up characters in an efficient manner that sticks to their concepts and the players I've helped have been please so I'm happy with the results. I also like to consider the first session to be a test run. Afterward the player can tweak their PCs if something didn't come out like they hoped.

[Hazel]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

Yes, my condemned-to-hell daemon is now part-mystic/mentalist with a 30 COM human multiform! My first two submissions were actually rejected by the GM at least twice for being solely based on numbers.

[Marcus]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

Not my own characters since I know what their concept is and I hit it. I have "optimized" other peoples characters into forms they don't recognize any longer but to be fair I was running with what they said or indicated in their builds / backgrounds and the parts I trimmed off were unspokens that they considered intrinsic in their own minds but failed to impart. NBD -- just unwind the build a bit to incorporate their input.

 

I must admit however that I'm so used to the HERO System that I tend to think in terms of character concepts that fit efficiently into the available mechanics so its possible, likely even, that I instinctively avoid concepts that would be inefficient to design..

 

I am, apparently, stalking you.

 

Shrike raises a good point, though. I find that the 'newer' players in my group are the most likely to come up with interesting, off-the-wall concepts for characters. Though they can (of course) be made to work, and usually to work within points, its not uncommon for the GM or rules-guru players to have to really roll up their sleeves on those oddballs.

 

I, for the record, love those oddballs.

 

I dont generate oddballs, at least not often. Usually, I end up going 'Hmm, I want to play an (insert party role here)'... and building a really, really good (insert party role here). I usually match that with one of hte personalities I've got lying around looking for characters (although perhaps mismatch is a better term, I like to have characters who do NOT get the 'powers they would have wished for').

 

What I dont do is conceive of some completely off-the-wall power, build a character that has whatever that off-the-wall power would logically have, and then figure out how it fits into a champions team.

 

Maybe I should try to do that more, myself. Id get more interesting characters, if a bit less cookie-cutter-efficient ones.

 

PS: Active Point Caps tend to generate cookie-cutter powerset characters, in my experience. Alot of the odder concepts require high active point, heavily limited powers. Since my local game moved from Active Point to Damage Class/Effectiveness caps, weve been seeing a bit more 'wingnuts and wierdos'.

[Kenn]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

It's not the characters who are efficient or inefficient... It's the players.

 

Some players thrive with a lot of options and can be creative.

 

Other players are stifled by having too many options.

 

And I've seen a character get switched from one player to another, the character get slightly de-powered in the process, and become far more effective anyway.

[assault]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

I usually match that with one of hte personalities I've got lying around looking for characters

 

I do this too, although more usually for NPCs than PCs.

 

I have to admit I'm rather stereotyped when it comes to PCs. I tend to play characters that are broadly based on my favourite characters: Superman, Batman and Robin. Other characters mainly serve as influences, allowing me to distance my characters from the originals.

 

The personalities I give them tend to reflect this. Basically, they usually end up as rather generic Golden Age/Silver Age characters, with an early Bronze Age streak of "relevence" buried where I hope the GM will never go.

 

In Aaron Allston's categorisation of player types, I'm something of a Genre Fiend.

 

I can, of course, go beyond my usual range. I just generally don't.

 

PS: Of course, my narrow range of usual characters means that I've analysed these types of characters to death. Efficiency is not an issue.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Making a character too efficient?

 

And I've seen a character get switched from one player to another' date=' the character get slightly de-powered in the process, and become far more effective anyway.[/quote']

 

I did this ina Golden Age campaign. I had made a small female Japanese martial artist called Nissei (sp?) and my friend had made a norwegian character called Magnor the Magician. Magnor was underpowered but hugely flexible - two small VPPs.

 

My friend was getting frustrated at 'not being able to DO anything in combat' and so we swapped. He was gleeful. I renamed the character Magnor the Magnificent and prceeded to treat Nissei with friendly patronage (ie, keep the women out of harms way - true 40's chauvinism.

 

What frustrated my friend the most was that in the major battle at the end Magnor swung the encounter. A small well placed flash allowed our brick to haymaker theirs, a small entangle allowed someone else to double team an opponent and a short teleport allowed Magnor to escape the trap laid for them and foil the plans.

 

As you say, it is players who are efficient. I was banned from VPPs thereafter unless working from pre-enounter power lists.

 

 

Doc