Hero System Light

[Shaft]

I posted this in a thread in the General Role playing thread, but it was suggested to me that I post it as a standalone topic. The original post is here:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1690730#post1690730

 

Some people dislike the "complexity" of the HERO system, so this is a vbery quick and dirty stripped down version that I can suggest, though it needs a LOT of work. Feel free to offer your commentary on it, including scathing criticism. Please note that I like HERO as is, and I haven't really tested this system, so I don't have any unstated need for it to be approved. As such, feel free to be merciless in your criticism:

 

Hero System Light:

 

Primary Stats range from 1 to 5. Beyond 5 is superhuman and cost of stats double.

 

STR costs 1 for 1. This is also your base PD value.

DEX costs 3 for 1. This is also your OCV/DCV.

CON costs 2 for 1. This is also your base ED value.

INT costs 1 for 1

EGO costs 2 for 1

PRE costs 1 for 1

Average people have stats of 3.

 

To calculate STR, subtract 1 from the value, and mutliply by 5. So a 3 STR gives a 10 STR in classic Hero. A 3 STR does 2d6 when punching. A 10 STR does 9d6 and can lift like a 45 STR in classic HERO and so on.

 

Secondary Stats:

 

STUN: (STRx3) + (CONx3) + EGO.

REC: STR + CON.

 

Attack Powers costs 2 points for 1d6 of effect.

Defensive Powers cost 1 point per point of defense.

Senses cost 2 points each for a +3 to INT when using that sense.

 

Skills costs 1 pt and add 3 to an attribute roll (Usually Dex or Int). Additional skill levels are 1 pt per +1.

 

Lethality is determined at Player's discretion with GM approval.

 

To make an opposed test, roll 2d6. Attacker adds OCV and/or skill. Defender rolls DCV and/or skill. Higher roll wins.

 

To make an unopposed skill, roll 2d6, add attribute and skill and beat 12.

Damage goes directly off STUN, though you subtract PD/ED first. When Stun goes negative, you are unconcscious. If it's dramatically appropriate, that might be lethal damage.

 

Every 10 points of STUN you lose gives you a -1 to rolls. The GM arbitrarily can give you back a number of STUN equal to your REC as he sees fit.

 

Any time you roll snake eyes, you fail. Any time you roll double sixes, you get to roll again and add to the total.

 

Heroic characters get 50 pts or more for higher powered games.

 

Superheroes get 125 pts or more as the genre demands it.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Hero System Light

 

Respectfully, I would just suggest that people who don't like the complexity of the HERO System would probably be happier simply playing a less complex system. If you wanted a bicycle, would you buy a motorcycle, and strip it, change it, tweak it, etc. until you had a smaller, human-powered sort of Franken-bicycle? No; you'd just buy a bicycle in the first place.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hero System Light

 

Hmm. I'm thinking kinda along the same lines as Derek. I don't see it as so much of a simplification of the system as much as a recost of things. Which is okay, but I don't think it serves the stated purpose.

 

When I want a simplification for new players, I usually start with dropping most or all optional rules, simplifying or removing the tracking of Endurance (often just until people get more used to the system), and other little modifications that pretty much stay "within the bounds" of the existing system. I also find that character creation is the part that is often confusing or complicated, so I'll do stuff like create ready-made templates that can be combined to form something very close to a finished character.

 

For introducing the system to D&D players (where I feel the difference is really more one of "different/unfamiliar" than "more complex") I have gone so far as a roll-high die rolling method similar to the one you present, but one that doesn't actually change the probability of success. I've talked about it plenty in other places, so I won't go into more detail here.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Hero System Light

 

I forgot what the pool was for # of posts until somebody mentions the 'F' word...

[Vondy]

Re: Hero System Light

 

Respectfully' date=' I would just suggest that people who don't like the complexity of the HERO System would probably be happier simply playing a less complex system. If you wanted a bicycle, would you buy a motorcycle, and strip it, change it, tweak it, etc. until you had a smaller, human-powered sort of Franken-bicycle? No; you'd just buy a bicycle in the first place. [/quote']

 

No. I don't agree.

 

I've been playing hero for almost 20 years. I love it, but I get tired of eating Grape Nuts all the time. Sometimes it makes my jaw hurt. And here is a tool-kit. You can make it even crunchier, or you can streamline it, or boil it down conceptually, and still have what is at its essence still Hero running under the hood. For me, I want a shorthand version of Hero that operates a little bit differently. I still want the power of the big book - the tool kit - available for whatever tweaks or innovations I may need - but most the time I don't want to see a character-sheet loaded down with "quadratic equations" and a gazillion numbers, nor do I want to have to go through that for every character I make. I want the option, not the obligation. On the other hand, I pretty much play Heroic games these days, and use a skill based system similar to Killer Shrike's for spells and powers, so its not quiet as "bad" as making super-heroes. And, hero does boil down to its essential parts nicely. And that's just it: the essence of Hero is different that many simpler systems, and provides and internal, consistently logical engine that I can quickly take a measure of. I've looked at a lot of system over the past few years and am still here. I like the DP9 system for a lot of things and have adapted ideas from it to my chop-shop Hero, but most other systems don't seem to do what Hero does - even after I've boiled it down.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Hero System Light

 

I'm with Vondy on this.

 

I dont think that the analogy is quite correct.

 

You can buy a system and you get to fiddle with the lights and buttons on the outside but the internal workings and balance are all in a sealed black box. opening it up or fiddling with bits that go into the black box invalidate your warranty.

 

HERO comes without the lights and buttons but with a full instruction manual on how to get there.

 

I can make my own black box so that my players dont have to worry about the inner workings and can focus on the lights and buttons that I want them to have. If they really want a different light or a new button, then I can add that in way that I am confident is consistent with the rest.

 

Doc

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hero System Light

 

I'm not against the idea of creating a less complex version of Hero - I just don't think this is it.

 

A lot of complexity issues I see from people (and many in the thread the OP came from) is that it's harder to do On The Fly Hero with the system as is (not for everyone, but some). Moving numbers around doesn't remove that ability, it just changes the goal posts.

 

90% of Hero Complexity is in Character Creation (the other 10% is Adding Damange). If you're going to simplify you need to look at the Powers section too. Or especially. Even in a Heroic Game they're important (alien threats, fantasy monsters, weird weapons).

[Navar]

Re: Hero System Light

 

I might suggest PS238 the RPG. I just picked it up and the system (I am not all that familiar with the setting) is even more simple than the sidekick system. It is what I plan on using to get more acclimated to the game (we are starting a new group here (All of us are gren)) and then moving into the actuall campaign with the full HERO system (movign to 6th ASAP)

 

I agree that this is just smaller numbers and not really a less complex system. If people want a simple system then D&D 4 is great for that (we all just left D&D because we don't like 4, but it might work for your needs.) and just come back to HERO when you get sick of WOTC.

[Vondy]

Re: Hero System Light

 

Even in a Heroic Game they're important (alien threats' date=' fantasy monsters, weird weapons).[/quote']

 

The way I do it, the powers/talents, which are expressed like skills, operate in a similar fashion to a modular power with the "skill roll" determining how many points you can put into play, and the number of points you do put into play determining your penalties. So, Telepathy 20- could bring 100 points into play at -10 (so go get some PSLs), or 50 point powers without penalties. For most heroic games a "power roll" of 14- would allow you to bring 35 point powers into play without penalty. For some games I adjust the maximum points down and eliminate or reduce the penalties. It works well.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hero System Light

 

That looks pretty cool, as a way of playing.

 

But it's not simplifying Hero, it's changing Game Play. You still run into the Creation issue when you have to DO something with those points you bring into play.

[Vondy]

Re: Hero System Light

 

That looks pretty cool, as a way of playing.

 

But it's not simplifying Hero, it's changing Game Play. You still run into the Creation issue when you have to DO something with those points you bring into play.

 

It depends what you mean by simplifying. The entire game I run (see MoS based hero thread) has pretty much been distilled to a 3d6 roll. This just falls into line with that. And while it doesn't simplify the power section, per se, it does speed up design time and serves as a useful skin. And, since I've been running hero as long as I have my players understand that I'm constantly running the numbers on the fly (in my head). I seldom engage is much power construction. Instead, I have an idea of what the "narrative description" costs, as well as the on the fly narrative flourishes the players come up with, will cost and apply limitations from the hip. The numbers are never precise, but since we're rounding to fives and tens it doesn't matter very much. It does make it significantly easier and faster for me at design time (I don't really build many powers) - and gives a very quick, flexible play experience. I admit its not for everyone - you have to know Hero pretty well to do it, but it does speed things up and make things very flexible in terms of narrative power.

[Vulcan]

Re: Hero System Light

 

Somewhere in the morass that the 6E discussion has become I suggested the genere books be 'stand alone' games based on a simplified HERO System (with spells, powers, etc. prebuilt), and then the 'Ultimate Toolkit Edition' book would be more like the 4E/5E core book.

 

The big problem with that would be the duplication of basic rules across all the books. Perhaps a 'basic rules' book separate from the genre books is the answer....

 

Just a thought.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hero System Light

 

...which is how we used to do it. Genre books contained rule sets tailored to the genre. There wasn't a 'core rules book'. To me that worked because if someone wanted to play Fantasy Hero they just bought the FH book. They did not need anything else. The original FH book is much smaller than the current FH book even though it was effectively stand alone. It can be done.

 

We certainly shouldn't abandon the 'Core Hero Toolkit' beut having a rule set for each genre, possibly a different rule set, but all built with Core Mechanics is an excellent idea IMO. If there are differences in the rules that gets rid of the problems of duplication - each game runs slightly differently so it is worth getting them all, and means that the Core Rules will become very attractive once you've been playing for a while and want to make real systemic changes.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hero System Light

 

On a different topic, the thing that makes simplifying Hero most difficult IMO is the fact that some things run off Characteristic/5 and some (well, combat) off Characteristic/3. Whilst I like that in some ways, if everything ran off CHAR/5 (with some mechanism for differentiating different values within the 5 point range, so, for instance, there was a real difference between 10 and 11) it would make the whole game much more streamlineable and it would make simplification of the game, well, simple.

[The Discourser]

Re: Hero System Light

 

I am in agreement with Vondy. I have been playing Hero for the better part of 25 years. I go all the way back to the original book written on a typewriter for goodness sake. That book was 100 times less bloated and complex than the most recent edition. Still, we had a blast. I am all about keeping things simple and letting the players flesh out the system as it was back in the original first edition days.

 

However, what I am not about is compromising the original intent and integrity of the system that has worked for this long. I would like to see subsequent editions of the book have the base start-up rules in the front of the tome and then have the rest of the wing-dings and additional rules follow in a separate part of the text. That way folks do not have to navigate the entire mass of the book to get started playing.

[Vondy]

Re: Hero System Light

 

On a different topic' date=' the thing that makes simplifying Hero most difficult IMO is the fact that some things run off Characteristic/5 and some (well, combat) off Characteristic/3. Whilst I like that in some ways, if everything ran off CHAR/5 (with some mechanism for differentiating different values within the 5 point range, so, for instance, there was a real difference between 10 and 11) it would make the whole game much more streamlineable and it would make simplification of the game, well, simple.[/quote']

 

I've implemented a skill based combat system in my heroic games (as you know from the MoS Based Hero thread) - so everything is /5 at this point. It really does streamline things nicely. And, so far, the system has worked (thanks to you and others who helped me with it)...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hero System Light

 

Ah, nostalgia, it is a thing of the past

 

Whlst I often mention , by way of some sort of implied geriontarchical logic, that I first started playing with the dinosaurs, let us not forget that early editions had some serious weaknesses.

 

If we did have a stripped back rule set in each genre book, I'd like to see somewhat different rule sets - obviously all built from the core rules - but tailored to each genre.

 

I think the advantage of that would be two fold:

 

1. You get a rule set that works particularly well with the genre,

2. It shows off what Core Hero can do, and

3. There wil still be the need to buy Core Hero if you want to experience everything the game can do (or an AWFUL lot of genre books)

 

OK, so that is 3. Sue me.