Elemental Control Vs. Multipower

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Elemental Control Vs. Multipower

 

Simple answer: other attacks should also be usable as "casual" with rules the same as casual STR. The Brick can charge through a 2 DEF/2 BOD wall using half his 60 STR. The EP should be able to Casually blast through the same wall with half his 12d6 EB' date=' and the guy with the claws should be able to Casually claw through with half his KA.[/quote']

 

This did cross my mind when I was posting but I didn't have time to think any further and so didn't change the post.

 

Anyway - even without the added stuff, given the choice of being energy lad or mega strong energy lad (for the same points) the latter is a tempting choice.

 

Doc

[Vulcan]

Re: Elemental Control Vs. Multipower

 

I posted in the 6E discussion that all figureds should be switched from STR to BODY. So all STR should do is provide, well, STR. Much like the points from EB only provide EB.

 

That way the 2/1 price of BODY is justified, and we don't need 2/1 STR (difficult to balance in AP cap games) or the removal of figured characteristics entirelty.

 

Besides, there is the number one reason not to play Mega Strong Energy Lad:

 

THAT'S NOT MY CONCEPT!

 

Sorry about the yelling, I just get a bit worked up about this kinda thing...

[Kdansky]

Re: Elemental Control Vs. Multipower

 

There should be no figureds. Far cleaner and waaaayyyy easier to balance. Also makes Adjustment powers a breeze. Putting them on BODY instead of STR is like building cars that run on petroleum gas instead of petrol because petrol is bad for the environment: Pointless. But we're drifting off topic.

 

It also gets rid of Mega Strong Energy Lad being cheaper than Super Weak Energy Lad. Of course you are allowed to play a certain concept, but do you really want to pay 5 points extra to have 50 strength less?

 

If you are better, you pay more points (no matter the concept). In case of strength, that obviously does not work (+50 Strength costs less than a single skill on most characters). Therefore it needs fixing.

[Vulcan]

Re: Elemental Control Vs. Multipower

 

But I use figured characteristics as a guide to how much - well, how much figured characteristics I should have.

 

Granted, I usually raise some of them. But others - especially STUN - I tend to leave alone. Changing them from figured to secondary steals that tool from new players. Sure, I can go back and do the math, but a new player will be clueless. So when his first character EPIC FAILS in his first combat because he forgot to buy up STUN, will he keep trying? Or will he throw up his hands in frustration and go back to whatever he was playing before?

 

Even one player doing so is a tragic loss to the HEROS community.

 

So is it worth it? To 'simplify' a bit of basic math at the beginning of character creation that, ultimately, is nothing compared to the math of calcualting powers?

 

Sure, STR needs to be balanced. So take the figureds off STR! That brings STR back into line in a hurry!

 

(Got to remember to cross-post this into the 6E Discussion, this one was pretty good!)

[Kdansky]

Re: Elemental Control Vs. Multipower

 

Your characters are all speed 3 I guess, since you don't usually buy figureds? And they have very low PD/ED too? All characters except possibly high-end bricks need to buy figureds at some point. That's fine. The guidelines often are not correct either. If you have low strength, STUN will usually not be above 30, which is quite a bit too less for a 60-AP game. The last 10 characters I build bought: PD/ED, Speed and Stun. Some also bought END. If it's a guideline, then it's a bad one.

 

My first characters were utterly ridiculous anyway. Figureds made them about 10% less broken, out of 200% brokenness. They were UTTER FAIL anyway. No amount of polish on the outermost walls will save a reactor from a nuclear meltdown.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Elemental Control Vs. Multipower

 

So when his first character EPIC FAILS in his first combat because he forgot to buy up STUN' date=' will he keep trying? Or will he throw up his hands in frustration and go back to whatever he was playing before?[/quote']

 

Did you learn HERO from scratch or were you inducted by someone who knew the rules?

 

I remember the first characters I made and those my friends made. They were disasters of an EPIC nature. Figured characteristics didn't help us or stop us from making crazy build choices and all of that frustration? Well, we're still here playing 30 years later.

 

If the rest of the system is robust and simple enough then players are used to tweaking what they want or think they need from their characters....

 

 

Doc

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Elemental Control Vs. Multipower

 

I posted in the 6E discussion that all figureds should be switched from STR to BODY. So all STR should do is provide, well, STR. Much like the points from EB only provide EB.

 

That way the 2/1 price of BODY is justified, and we don't need 2/1 STR (difficult to balance in AP cap games) or the removal of figured characteristics entirelty.

 

Besides, there is the number one reason not to play Mega Strong Energy Lad:

 

THAT'S NOT MY CONCEPT!

 

Sorry about the yelling, I just get a bit worked up about this kinda thing...

 

 

Kind of lost on many folks. You and I are apparently very lucky for not having a group that ignores that little thing it seems from many comments on these boards.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Elemental Control Vs. Multipower

 

Your characters are all speed 3 I guess' date=' since you don't usually buy figureds?[/quote']

 

Outside of Supers, I tend to run a lot of SPD 3 characters, at least as starting characters.

 

Within Supers, both SPD and DEX inflation are significant. A perfectly good Supers game could operate with all DEX levels set by the CU dropping by 9 to 12 points (reducing either a 17 DEX or a 20 DEX to an 8 - human average - and working our way up from there), leaving "low DEX" Supers in the same realm as normal humans, instead of starting at "top end of human 20" and working our way up from there. Instead of Supers ranging from a 17-18 "really slow" Brick to a 35 DEX martial artist, these ranges would be 8 - 26. Speed could drop off from a 4 - 7 range to a 2 - 5 range without the world coming to an end either. Many characters would then run with their base figured SPD.

 

And they have very low PD/ED too?

 

Actually, I leave a lot of EP's at their base levels of PD and ED. Defenses are part figured characteristic, part powers. If you use a force field or armor, low defenses work fine.

 

If you have low strength' date=' STUN will usually not be above 30, which is quite a bit too less for a 60-AP game.[/quote']

 

23 CON + 13 STR + 11 BOD = 30 STUN. I've run lots of characters in the high 20's or low 30's STUN levels in 60 AP (and higher) games. It depends on playstyle. If you think it should take 3 - 4 hits to KO the typical character, then 30 defenses and 30 STUN does the trick just as well as 25 defenses and 60 STUN or 20 defenses and 75 STUN. 3 hits takes him to -6 on average; 4 are needed if he gets a recovery. The other options need 4 hits to be KO'd. While I tend to buy up STUN, END and/or REC fairly often, they tend to be rounding buyups, rather than "I want more" buyups.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Elemental Control Vs. Multipower

 

Kind of lost on many folks. You and I are apparently very lucky for not having a group that ignores that little thing it seems from many comments on these boards.

 

I think that the point is that the system shouldn't give me so many bennies 'just' because it contains STR.

 

The system should essentially be blind to concept....

[Sean Waters]

Re: Elemental Control Vs. Multipower

 

One of the reasons I so enjoy these boards is that we can have diametrically opposed views and still have a decent discussion.

 

I am increasingly using points as a guide at best and worrying about balancing them not at all. There are better ways to make sure characters do not run away with the show.

 

There are some good arguments for ECs though - I like the idea that it encourages powers that you would otherwise not see much of. I'm less convinced that they are there to balance figured characteristics: CON and DEX are bargains as great or greater in effect than the figured for STR and everyone has them in spades.

 

We can come up with arguments until we are blue in the face, with illustrated examples, but at the end of the day, if someone wants to build an unbalanced uber-killa-machine, they are going to do it. Balancing teh game so often means limiting the way in which you can use it, and that is not a good thing.

 

Personally I say take the safeties off. If people want to abuse the system, or or importantly, the spirit of the game, let them get on with it. We're all big enough and ugly enough to tell them 'Not at my gaming table', and you never know, maybe all these lost souls will find each other and play some sort of apocalyptic slaughter-fest, and really enjoy it.

 

Good luck to them.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Elemental Control Vs. Multipower

 

I'll go with Sean 100% on this. especially since I've seen there are so many mutually exclusive definitions of abuse. One person's abuse is anthers logical way of doing things and visa versa.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Elemental Control Vs. Multipower

 

I think that the point is that the system shouldn't give me so many bennies 'just' because it contains STR.

 

The system should essentially be blind to concept....

 

 

We just seriously disagree on the "bennies" and blind to concept concept but otherwise we're on the same page.

 

But really,I don't think STR enters into it. As Sean said, I think ECs certainly have their place. Partly to reflect the dwindling utility of multiple powers . Another to encourage tight concept ( which seems to be HERO politically incorrect - So what! ) which I personally like.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Elemental Control Vs. Multipower

 

We just seriously disagree on [snip] blind to concept concept but otherwise we're on the same page.

 

Are we talking about the same thing?

 

I feel that the system should not reward one concept over another - everyone should get the same value from their points. Do you disagree with that?

 

Doc

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Elemental Control Vs. Multipower

 

Are we talking about the same thing?

 

I feel that the system should not reward one concept over another - everyone should get the same value from their points. Do you disagree with that?

 

Doc

 

I do think a solid coherent concept is worth a reward, yep. Such concepts tend to also produce a number of partially redundant powers, which the EC break helps with. Otherwise they would be less likely to exist and certainly not worth their cost.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Elemental Control Vs. Multipower

 

I do think a solid coherent concept is worth a reward' date=' yep. Such concepts tend to also produce a number of partially redundant powers, which the EC break helps with. Otherwise they would be less likely to exist and certainly not worth their cost.[/quote']

 

But are you rewarding coherence or concept then?

 

I think that there are some powers/characteristics in the game that provide more value for money than others. We obviously disagree about STR but in the example we were talking about you can often add STR for free and so a concept that allows you to do that gets benefits for zero points. That's not coherence, its playing the system.

 

Doc

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Elemental Control Vs. Multipower

 

It might be worth noting that a particular character build might have a far different value from one game to another depending on whether the game is combat-centric vs. problem-centric.

 

I've seen some very combat effective character builds posted to the board over the years that would be extremely hard pressed to do anything 'heroic' like saving innocent bystanders in danger.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Elemental Control Vs. Multipower

 

But are you rewarding coherence or concept then?

 

I think that there are some powers/characteristics in the game that provide more value for money than others. We obviously disagree about STR but in the example we were talking about you can often add STR for free and so a concept that allows you to do that gets benefits for zero points. That's not coherence, its playing the system.

 

Doc

 

Yes.

 

So what. Really any system can be played. What I see is decent options being shut down because of what some munchkin might do with squirrely math and be "playing the system". I simply cannot express how tired (even maybe especially in real life) of having my options removed because some jerk can abuse it. ( OK my knee just jerked) GM just say no.

 

 

You know I like you but ,honestly, do we ever agree on anything game related?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Elemental Control Vs. Multipower

 

You know I like you but ' date='honestly, do we ever agree on anything game related?[/quote']

 

I'll bet we'd have a great game together!

 

We both like the HERO system and probably like 95% of the same stuff. It's just that we keep talking about that other 5%. That's what keeps the boards interesting. :)

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Elemental Control Vs. Multipower

 

I'll bet we'd have a great game together!

 

We both like the HERO system and probably like 95% of the same stuff. It's just that we keep talking about that other 5%. That's what keeps the boards interesting. :)

 

Probably true. That made me smile to think about.

[Kdansky]

Re: Elemental Control Vs. Multipower

 

Personally I say take the safeties off. If people want to abuse the system, or or importantly, the spirit of the game, let them get on with it. We're all big enough and ugly enough to tell them 'Not at my gaming table', and you never know, maybe all these lost souls will find each other and play some sort of apocalyptic slaughter-fest, and really enjoy it.

 

Good luck to them.

 

It might actually be amusing to build a couple utterly broken characters where everyone tries as hard as possible to abuse the system and then see who wins

 

My megascaled teleport + Uncontrolled Continuous Ego Attack Does Body vs your Density Increase STR Growth 25d6 attacks. Sounds amusing