two (sigh) PRE questions

[secretID]

1) PRE attacks while invisible. The character has PRE boosted by a magical focus, w/o any other specific special effect. It seems a little wrong to me, but he made a good point about the spookiness of the disembodied voice. Thoughts?

 

2) House rules limiting PRE attacks. I think high level PRE is way too cheap, and I'm considering a crude solution of just capping base dice for PRE attacks. I'm thinking 6 dice before circumstance mods, but I think even that may be too powerful. If anyone has done or considered this (or other "fixes"), I'd love to hear it.

 

Thanks

[ghost-angel]

Re: two (sigh) PRE questions

 

1) If the Focus is Obvious it's seen. Other than that - yeah, it's a pretty good PRE Attack.

 

2) Normally we don't get more than +4 Dice for Mods total, and even that it's more an average of 2 Dice extra.

[BoneDaddy]

Re: two (sigh) PRE questions

 

I might suggest an alternative house rule, or an alternative method for handling the issue.

 

1. House rule: A second, subsequent presence attack is only worth half the dice that it otherwise would be. A third is halved again, etc. After one massive bowell loosening presence attack, a second one loses a little something. If they are spending all those points of PRE, they've earned the right to use them, but if you don't want your game to turn into a bunch of roaring mice you have a right as a GM to set some rational limit on the tactic.

 

2. Escalation. A few high PRE villains can be a fine lesson in humility for recalcitrant PRE abusers. The combat, however, rather than looking like heroes duking it out across the city skyline, will look like an episode of Crossfire. High PRE combat should be limited because while it can be effective, it is also silly looking in the long run.

[Sean Waters]

Re: two (sigh) PRE questions

 

1. PRE does not cost END to use so technically PRE attacks are invisible anyway. I would allow a PRE attack whilst invisible but I may well limit the dice or the effect that can be acheived as it does not use all the available senses. You could certainly use a disembodied voice to scare someone in the right situation, say a creepy and quiet house whent hey think they are all alone, but in the middle of a city at rush hour, no one is even going to notice.

 

2. High level PRE is way too cheap. Cf Mind Control. You should limit the PRE a character can buy. If the players protest, shoot them, or at least make them think you are capable of shooting them if they don't back down and stop whining (you might want to use a PRE attack for that).

[Vulcan]

Re: two (sigh) PRE questions

 

There is a fine line between too much and not enough PRE in a super-level game. (I really can't say much about Heroic-level games.)

 

Some players use PRE as a 'dump' stat, and if the GM never uses PRE attacks, that works fine. At least, until there is a 'crossover' game with another gameing group that does use PRE attacks.

 

(I have fond memories of running into just such a group in a crossover. Their big, nasty gargoyle thingie had an 8 PRE. Our lowest PRE was 18. The weretiger had a 38. One roar and the battle was over!)

[Korvar]

Re: two (sigh) PRE questions

 

I remember my third Fantasy Hero character - I was looking over the Disads list and noted that Age 60+ gave you a maximum Pre of 30. So I made a White Robed Mage (it was the Dragonlance setting) with a Reputation. With bonuses for being a famous Wizard and his absurd Pre, he could walk into a room and raise an eyebrow and get most people with a lost half phase. It was a whole extra dimension having a FH character who could actually use Pre offensively.

[Vulcan]

Re: two (sigh) PRE questions

 

The other side of this is that even though PRE is cheap, PRE Defense - PRE, only for defense (-1) - is cheaper.

 

So if the PRE-overbuild character runs into someone who isn't impressed by the attack, they're going to get waxed in the ensuing battle becase they don't have anything to fall back on. And from there, all of his Presence attacks will loose dice due to 'Poor Reputation (All Bark and No Bite...).

[Sean Waters]

Re: two (sigh) PRE questions

 

The other side of this is that even though PRE is cheap, PRE Defense - PRE, only for defense (-1) - is cheaper.

 

So if the PRE-overbuild character runs into someone who isn't impressed by the attack, they're going to get waxed in the ensuing battle becase they don't have anything to fall back on. And from there, all of his Presence attacks will loose dice due to 'Poor Reputation (All Bark and No Bite...).

 

Yes, but...if the PRE Attacker is part of a team, he unleashes the awesome goodness and then his mates pan seven shades out of anyone whose trousers don't change colour.

 

Also you can put PRE in a MP, but for goodness sakes don't tell anyone. You can swap the slot in to start combat and then swap out, but you need PRE Def on all the time, in case someone breaks the pattern.

 

PRE attacks need a bit of a look at IMO.

[Vulcan]

Re: two (sigh) PRE questions

 

Just a GM warning about the dangers of allowing a really high PRE in a game should do it.

 

I would hate to see the mechanic removed from the game entirely, because it adds so much to feel of a HEROS game. In every movie genre there's the trope where the villian makes a big speech and terrifies everyone but the hero into inaction... PRE attacks are a big part of the source materials.

 

I'll have to go watch some of my movies to get some more concrete examples to list...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: two (sigh) PRE questions

 

1) PRE attacks while invisible. The character has PRE boosted by a magical focus' date=' w/o any other specific special effect. It seems a little wrong to me, but he made a good point about the spookiness of the disembodied voice. Thoughts?[/quote']

 

A) What kind of focus?

 

You can give both +'s and -'s. Being Invisible is a show of power but not much of one, and on the other hand the "against existing moods" -d6 is pretty vague.

 

Bottom line its a judgment call. If it seems scary to you, grant some extra dice. If it seems lame to you don't grant more dice or even take some away. If it seems scary AND lame do both and grant or subtract the net. If you're spending more than 10 seconds on it you're over-thinking it.

 

2) House rules limiting PRE attacks. I think high level PRE is way too cheap, and I'm considering a crude solution of just capping base dice for PRE attacks. I'm thinking 6 dice before circumstance mods, but I think even that may be too powerful. If anyone has done or considered this (or other "fixes"), I'd love to hear it.

 

Thanks

 

Hmm...well:

 

A) what do you consider "high level PRE"? Sounds like you are thinking 30+ PRE (6d6+). Are you not enforcing NCM doubling?

 

why do you think its too cheap -- what aspect of it in your games seems egregious?

 

 

To be honest, I've always found the PRE system to work generally pretty well at heroic and that odd space between heroic and superheroic. It kind of breaks down in superheroic for a variety of reasons, chief among them the much wider swing in median stats.

 

Having said that, the higher end effects of PRE Attacks (PRE + 30 and up) are very difficult to achieve without special effort or circumstances. I've never felt that high end PRE was too cheap; playing big PRE guy is a pretty difficult road to hoe in fact. I've seen two PC's in particular who were specifically built around using the PRE Attack (and other interaction oriented abilities) and while they were effective -- meaning competitive -- they were hardly overwhelming or "uber".

[prestidigitator]

Re: two (sigh) PRE questions

 

By its nature it can't be used extremely often or it will lose effectiveness. If a character has dumped a bunch of points into Pre, let them have that amazing scare (or whatever) once in a while. They've paid for it. Just think of the other things they could be doing (over and over again) with those 60 points (or whatever) they put into Pre.

 

If, on the other hand, they didn't pay for it (e.g. a magical item in a heroic fantasy game), feel free to make all kinds of fun with it, and don't feel too bad about the side effects. "Oops! You fade into visibility unexpectedly. The Medallion of Doom obviously had a problem with your being invisible. It seems it really wanted (you) to be NOTICED!"

 

That's my take anyway. As has been mentioned, it's hard to be extremely effective with a Pre Attack unless you've really kissed the GM's ass over it a bit (read: roleplayed very well, etc.).

[Lord Liaden]

Re: two (sigh) PRE questions

 

I've always found the rules for Presence Attacks to be rather sketchy in some areas. How long do the lingering effects of +10 or higher Presence Attacks actually last? What conditions affect whether a person can even perceive a Presence Attack? The answers can have a great impact on the game-balance of PRE.

 

Here are a couple of basic guidelines I apply to Presence Attacks in my games. I have more details for specific circumstances, but these are the gist:

 

1) The targets of a Presence Attack all need to have clear Line Of Sight to the person making the attack, and in cases where speech is a factor must be able to clearly hear the attacker. Normal Perception Modifiers for range and environmental conditions apply.

 

2) Victims of a successful Presence Attack are automatically subject to its effects on their next Phase; but starting with the Phase following that they get a Breakout Roll as for Mental Powers to overcome it (except for those effects specified as lasting a full Turn), using whichever of their EGO or PRE is higher. The breakout roll progresses on the Time Chart as per Mental Powers, with the same cumulative bonus to the roll for each step down the Chart.

 

These are just additions to the existing rules, without changing them. Personally, I think a good case could be made for allowing the subject of a Presence Attack to make an immediate Breakout Roll, as with Mental Power attacks.

[prestidigitator]

Re: two (sigh) PRE questions

 

Ah. See, I tend not to put any system behind that at all. One of the downsides to Pre Attacks is that it really is quite up to GM discretion, as you say. So I tend not to even make it as predictable as a breakout roll or anything. I just decide when the initial reaction should die down based on the circumstances and common sense. If there's some question in MY mind I might make a roll, but that's rare. Usually there's something that just makes sense.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: two (sigh) PRE questions

 

In LL's defense, The Ultimate Skill does provide some parallel for treating interaction effects (to which PRE Attacks is relevant) similarly to Mental powers.

 

However I personally have only rarely felt the need to put more structure around PRE Attacks. I treat it as a story element.

 

The lower end effects of PA's are well defined by the rules. For the higher end its purely GM's discretion IMO and for my own part I generally have chumps fumble, faint, forgo, forswear, flee (f.* etc) or otherwise get scratched as active threats, non-chumps shake it off when it seems reasonable to do so based upon my needs as the GM to challenge the players and make encounters worthwhile.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: two (sigh) PRE questions

 

I've no problem with GMs and player groups who are comfortable with more freeform approaches to Presence Attacks. I prefer more structure, but I also allow nameless cannon fodder to be taken down by good PA rolls for the duration of a scenario, same as for attacking them physically.

[Sean Waters]

Re: two (sigh) PRE questions

 

My biggest problem with PRE attacks is that players absolutely hate it when you tell them the character should have worn the brown costume.

[Vulcan]

Re: two (sigh) PRE questions

 

Some players, anyway. Our group gets a kick out of roleplaying being scared that bad by a PRE attack.

[secretID]

Re: two (sigh) PRE questions

 

Thanks for all the responses. For some reason, I didn't get emails on most of the responses until yesterday.

 

I ended up allowing the invisible PRE attack, which seemed to be the consensus here anyway - thanks for the reminder about the focus.

 

Re limits, currently I'm limiting unmodified dice to 8 (i.e., essentially a PRE limit of 40) for the mechanical effects of PRE attacks (e.g., lost phase), and leaving non-mechanical effects entirely in my discretion, rather than following the text. In practice, I'll probably follow the text for mooks and ignore it for real threats.