Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

[Istaran]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

For further comparison:

Hero 1:

30 DEX, no CSLs: 60 pts

Power 1: 8d6 EB: 4 END, 40 pts

Power 2: 8d6 EB: 4 END, 40 pts

Cost: 140 pts.

Common attack: 2x8d6 for 8 END at 10 OCV.

 

Hero 2:

30 DEX, +2 with Power A: 64 pts

Power A: 8d6 EB, Autofire 3, 1/2 END: 2 END per attack, 75 pts.

Cost: 139 pts.

Common attack: 3x8d6 for 6 END at 8/10/12 OCV.

 

So for 1 less points, he spends fewer END to attack, gets in 1 hit if Hero 1 would have missed by 1-2, and gets in a third hit if Hero 1 would have beat the DCV by at least 2.

When you scale these two up, the points savings just get better on Hero 2. The only downside to Hero 2 is he runs afowl AP caps more quickly. But if you have DC caps that apply to the whole MP, Hero 1 actually runs afowl those more quickly for some strange reason! (i.e. as written above Hero 1 is throwing 16 DC, and if the DM counts Autofire then Hero2 is throwing 10 DC.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

Pool costs balance for pools with a very small number of powers. If you have an EC with N powers, each with A Active points the cost is (N+1)xA/2.

 

For 60 point powers, 2 powers in the pool cost 90 points, and three cost 120. With three powers in the pool you are saving the cost of an entire 60 point power, which , assuming you were going to be buying the other two powers anyway, gets you your second atatck for free.

 

Similarly if you were planning to buy a 0 END desolid anyway it only costs an additional 12 points to put that in a MP with a 12d6 EB.

 

That is not really the point though.

 

The reason we have either active point caps or DC caps or some sort of restriction on the number of dice you can fling per phase is because it is a game balance system. MPAs make a mockery of that because they double (or more) your potential damage output through defences.

 

A team of heroes with any tactical nouse at all will be hitting your uber villain with coordinated MPAs at every opportunity, and it is just no fun when the villain never lasts more than a phase or two, even with 3/4 damage reduction.

 

Unless you think it is, in which case that's all right then.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

For further comparison:

Hero 1:

30 DEX, no CSLs: 60 pts

Power 1: 8d6 EB: 4 END, 40 pts

Power 2: 8d6 EB: 4 END, 40 pts

Cost: 140 pts.

Common attack: 2x8d6 for 8 END at 10 OCV.

 

Hero 2:

30 DEX, +2 with Power A: 64 pts

Power A: 8d6 EB, Autofire 3, 1/2 END: 2 END per attack, 75 pts.

Cost: 139 pts.

Common attack: 3x8d6 for 6 END at 8/10/12 OCV.

 

So for 1 less points, he spends fewer END to attack, gets in 1 hit if Hero 1 would have missed by 1-2, and gets in a third hit if Hero 1 would have beat the DCV by at least 2.

When you scale these two up, the points savings just get better on Hero 2. The only downside to Hero 2 is he runs afowl AP caps more quickly. But if you have DC caps that apply to the whole MP, Hero 1 actually runs afowl those more quickly for some strange reason! (i.e. as written above Hero 1 is throwing 16 DC, and if the DM counts Autofire then Hero2 is throwing 10 DC.)

 

The issue is not whether you can do it: to be honest an 8d6 in a 12DC game is not going to bother me, even on autofire - the question is whether the whole thing is likely to unbalance the game. Hero has a really weird mix of prescriptive rules that are there for game balance and no other reason and stuff like MPAs where the balance tips completely in the other direction.

[Markdoc]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

Is anyone else reminded of the d20 "stacking rules"?

 

Yes, I must admit that thought had occurred to me However, I am not keen on "power-stacking" anyway, so I can live with it, especially since I don't recall it ever being an issue in-game.

 

cheers, Mark

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

The issue is not whether you can do it: to be honest an 8d6 in a 12DC game is not going to bother me' date=' even on autofire - the question is whether the whole thing is likely to unbalance the game. Hero has a really weird mix of prescriptive rules that are there for game balance and no other reason and stuff like MPAs where the balance tips completely in the other direction.[/quote']

 

As I've said, I've used them, for longer than 5th Ed has been out.

 

Hasn't unbalanced a game yet.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

As I've said, I've used them, for longer than 5th Ed has been out.

 

Hasn't unbalanced a game yet.

 

I think it depends on the game. In a pulp game, firing two revolvers simultaneously is fine because revolvers are not going to be big damage weapons (well, lotto aside) compared to, say, a rifle, so the total of dice you roll probably is not going to exceed campaign caps anyway, or not by much, and you are probably not going to do more damage than you could with another single, bigger weapon.

 

In a superhero game, however, where both parts of the MPA could well be at campaign maximum for damage, I think the result may well be different - but there are no rules or guildlines at all for balancing MPAs in a given game - which is odd givent eh emphasis on balance elsewhere.

[tesuji]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

In a superhero game, however, where both parts of the MPA could well be at campaign maximum for damage, I think the result may well be different - but there are no rules or guildlines at all for balancing MPAs in a given game - which is odd givent eh emphasis on balance elsewhere.

 

the catch is hero usually goes with the easy-to-do measurements and then leaves all else to "gm figure it out" and the actual effectiveness and comparison of things like MPA and rapid fire/sweep etc and where they break game play is more complex than simple DC totals or AP levels. so i am not surprised they take a pass on this aspect for balance.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

I think it depends on the game. In a pulp game, firing two revolvers simultaneously is fine because revolvers are not going to be big damage weapons (well, lotto aside) compared to, say, a rifle, so the total of dice you roll probably is not going to exceed campaign caps anyway, or not by much, and you are probably not going to do more damage than you could with another single, bigger weapon.

 

In a superhero game, however, where both parts of the MPA could well be at campaign maximum for damage, I think the result may well be different - but there are no rules or guildlines at all for balancing MPAs in a given game - which is odd givent eh emphasis on balance elsewhere.

 

The games where it MPAs were used:

 

Star Hero

Fantasy Hero

Star Hero (same game as the first technically, well - same character)

Champions

Dark Champions

 

it worked the least well in Dark Champions when it was used with UZI's + a Really Good Roll.

 

The 1st Star Hero and Fantasy Hero were in 4E so the attack rolls were separate - you basically just got two attacks in one Phase and nothing else.

 

The second Star Hero, Champions and DC were all under 5E using the MPA Rule from the book.

 

Not. Unbalancing. In. Play.

You're going under the premise of theory, and it isn't holding up to experience, I really can't take it at face value as a serious argument against them.

[Istaran]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

A team of heroes with any tactical nouse at all will be hitting your uber villain with coordinated MPAs at every opportunity, and it is just no fun when the villain never lasts more than a phase or two, even with 3/4 damage reduction.

 

Unless you think it is, in which case that's all right then.

 

My point for a while now is that a tactically oriented group will avoid MPAs like the plague since you can do more damage for less points more reliably with a variety of alternatives. The only exception I can see is if MPAs are given blanket approval to override DC caps, in which case they are the equivalent of buying things up past NCM. Paying about double for the added effectiveness is about what it comes down to in most cases. Can someone actually give a good example where without concidering caps the MPA comes out ahead over the existing alternatives for the same point total? Or where, even concidering caps, it comes out ahead of Sweep/Rapid Attack?

 

(btw, anyone care to take a stab at the math for how much extra + on a sweep would balance the first-miss-ends of sweep versus the all-or-nothing of MPA in terms of expected hits per volley?)

 

The one big benefit I see of MPA is the ability to do more than one effect at once, such as drain + normal damage. And this generally is a loss of raw effectiveness in exchange for added coolness. Though attack + flash does strike me as potentially powerful.

[Comic]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

MPA increases the odds of winning the Stun Lotto, on KA's, which many see as advantageous.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

The games where it MPAs were used:

 

Star Hero

Fantasy Hero

Star Hero (same game as the first technically, well - same character)

Champions

Dark Champions

 

it worked the least well in Dark Champions when it was used with UZI's + a Really Good Roll.

 

The 1st Star Hero and Fantasy Hero were in 4E so the attack rolls were separate - you basically just got two attacks in one Phase and nothing else.

 

The second Star Hero, Champions and DC were all under 5E using the MPA Rule from the book.

 

Not. Unbalancing. In. Play.

You're going under the premise of theory, and it isn't holding up to experience, I really can't take it at face value as a serious argument against them.

 

You're assuming that, and you're wrong. I argue from a theoretical premise because there are strong theoretical arguments against MPAs, but that does not mean that my opinion is not informed by actual experience, and I believe that individual anecdotal evidence is of limited value if it does not inform a theoretically valid framework.

 

I have been in games where MPA have been allowed (Champions games) and they have been unbalancing in that they turn combat into a first strike situation because so much damage can be done with a single (MPA) hit. That then dictates the way characters are built, putting a premium on lightning reflexes and maximising OCV, and it makes it almost impossible to build a character that can last for even a full turn without falling over, so it works to marginalise the traditional 'slow but tough' brick type. It also means that to compete, most characters need access to MPAs.

 

The look and feel of the game is substantailly changed. Now I'm calling that unbalancing because it skews the way that characters are built and used. The game doesn't fall over - you can still play like that - but it is a small rule that can and does cause massive changes, a butterfly effect.

 

I appreciate your experience has been different, or maybe you've enjoyed the different utility, but MPAs are an odd exception to Hero's often overly cautious approach to game balance in my experienced opinion.

 

I can certainly see a mechanism for multiple attacks being a useful addition to the system, but MPA is far too generous in how it handles it IMO. An OCV penalty, for example, would make the use of MPAs less prevalent and more balanced, especially given the 3d6 bell curve, and we already have a mechanism for doing that sort of thing in the rapid attack/sweep maneouvres in the system. On a personal note I would expect a more potent attack to have some drawback and the 'limitations' on the use of MPAs are lilly-livered and arbitrary at best (why, for instance, can't you MPA a mental and physical attack simultaneously using the lower chance of hitting from ECV or OCV?) and impose no actual penalty for launching two attacks simultanously.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

My point for a while now is that a tactically oriented group will avoid MPAs like the plague since you can do more damage for less points more reliably with a variety of alternatives. The only exception I can see is if MPAs are given blanket approval to override DC caps, in which case they are the equivalent of buying things up past NCM. Paying about double for the added effectiveness is about what it comes down to in most cases. Can someone actually give a good example where without concidering caps the MPA comes out ahead over the existing alternatives for the same point total? Or where, even concidering caps, it comes out ahead of Sweep/Rapid Attack?

 

(btw, anyone care to take a stab at the math for how much extra + on a sweep would balance the first-miss-ends of sweep versus the all-or-nothing of MPA in terms of expected hits per volley?)

 

The one big benefit I see of MPA is the ability to do more than one effect at once, such as drain + normal damage. And this generally is a loss of raw effectiveness in exchange for added coolness. Though attack + flash does strike me as potentially powerful.

 

I think you'll find that in a game capped at 60 AP/12DC, for instance, there's nothing stopping you launching 2x12DC as a MPA, which is far more damage than you'll manage from any other attack including autofire, using the same caps. Of course if you cap the DC but not the active points and allow a 12DC autofire in your game, then you might have a point, but then then presumably you also have to allow 12DC NNDs, which is another barrel of frogs entirely.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

the catch is hero usually goes with the easy-to-do measurements and then leaves all else to "gm figure it out" and the actual effectiveness and comparison of things like MPA and rapid fire/sweep etc and where they break game play is more complex than simple DC totals or AP levels. so i am not surprised they take a pass on this aspect for balance.

 

This is the game that says you have to make a new attack roll against an opponent you have already grabbed before causing damage, that says you cannot add damage from your Gravity Hammer in a MP focus to your strength from a density increase in your Mass EC, and there are many other examples of rules so 'balancing' but counter intuitive that even experienced players either never knew about them or routinely ignore them.

 

This would be easy: get rid of MPA rules and require rapid fire or sweep instead.

[caris]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

My point for a while now is that a tactically oriented group will avoid MPAs like the plague since you can do more damage for less points more reliably with a variety of alternatives. The only exception I can see is if MPAs are given blanket approval to override DC caps' date=' in which case they are the equivalent of buying things up past NCM. Paying about double for the added effectiveness is about what it comes down to in most cases. Can someone actually give a good example where without concidering caps the MPA comes out ahead over the existing alternatives for the same point total?[/quote']

 

Same basic character:

 

Build A:

 

12DC EB (2 Shot Autofire +1/4) 75 points

Multipower Reserve (60 Active) 60 points

Slot 1: 30” Teleport (Fixed Slot) 6 points

Slot 2: 24” Teleport (1”=1Km)(Fixed Slot) 6 points

 

Total points: 147

 

Build B:

 

12DC EB 60 points

Multipower Reserve (60 Active) 60 points

Slot 1: 30” Teleport (Fixed Slot) 6 points

Slot 2: 24” Teleport (1”=1Km)(Fixed Slot) 6 points

Slot 3: 12D6 EB (Fixed Slot) 6 points

 

Total points: 138

 

What exactly is the downside of build B? Can not fire into an adjacent hex, but there is no OCV modifier to the second shot.

[Markdoc]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

Not. Unbalancing. In. Play.

You're going under the premise of theory, and it isn't holding up to experience, I really can't take it at face value as a serious argument against them.

 

Our group had MPAs in play in games with multiple GMs covering Fantasy Hero, Judge Dredd, Sci Fi Bounty Hunters and Iron age-y Supers. We agreed mutually to drop MPAs because ...

 

They. Were. Unbalancing. In. Play.

 

Others have said the same, while some have had your experience: all that says to me is that they can be unbalancing in play, depending on styles and assumptions in effect.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

I have been in games where MPA have been allowed (Champions games) and they have been unbalancing in that they turn combat into a first strike situation because so much damage can be done with a single (MPA) hit. That then dictates the way characters are built, putting a premium on lightning reflexes and maximising OCV, and it makes it almost impossible to build a character that can last for even a full turn without falling over, so it works to marginalise the traditional 'slow but tough' brick type. It also means that to compete, most characters need access to MPAs.

 

The look and feel of the game is substantailly changed. Now I'm calling that unbalancing because it skews the way that characters are built and used. The game doesn't fall over - you can still play like that - but it is a small rule that can and does cause massive changes, a butterfly effect.

 

This was exactly our experience. Initially, the GM most affected didn't mind, because he liked "gritty, dangerous games", and "skulk and shoot" fitted that ambiance. But it led to oddities like Spider Valdez - my mutant bounty hunter who had 6 arms and ambidexterity, (sesquidexterity?) to let him MPA 6 guns at once to push that over the line.

 

Even taking exotic characters out of the mix, widespread use of MPAs definately changed the gameplay - we've discussed reasons earlier in the thread.

 

cheers, Mark

[tesuji]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

This would be easy: get rid of MPA rules and require rapid fire or sweep instead.

 

Not hardly, because of the added complexity this involves for what I like to call "combo effects".

 

For instance I want to define the effect of blue meson beams in my game as "does damage like electricity but also slows the target" which i represent as a speed drain and eb combined together, one could even build this as a linked attack, but it is in fact an MPA example. If however this now calls into effect the sweep rules - then i suddenly add "takes full phase" and lower ocv etc just because my attack type is one that does more than one thing. its not IMBALANCING to have these two effects together but i suddenly add all this baggae of the maneuver rules solely because hero never built a single attack type that does speed and body/stun damage.

 

The issue as I see it involves the fact that unrestricted MPAs can be imbalancing. However they dont have to be.

 

If I as Gm take MPA rules into account when i approve characters, then i can have all sorts of "dual-effect attacks which are perfectly fine (cold blast with small CE effect for movement loss due to ice slick, fiery explosion that burns things and causes deafening explosion and blinding flash, mental attack that not only stuns but disorients with an int/ego drain, undead claws that rip and sap vitality, radiation beams that cause damage and degrade con, etc...) and balanced for my campaign limits.

 

The example you cite somewhere above of taking two 12dc MPAs together for a 12dc capped game is an example of poor approval, as it shows a combo that is obviously way more potent than the typical attack power is allowed. there is NOTHING saying that "in a 12dc game you can have as many 12dc attacks firing at once" but thats your assumption in orderto create the breaking balance example.

 

While they can break games, so can most anything else if misapplied, relative to campaign basics.

 

Now in the same style game, one would likely find if defenses were set at 30 ap, that someone with 30/30 defenses along with damage reduction 505 each (each 30 pts) and additionally +30 stun and +15 body (again each being 30 pts) and also lets not forget 30 for MD and PowD etc... is terribly over defended - maybe nigh untouchable

 

Now for me there are mentally three different types of combo attacks -

 

1. two or more effects of a single power like a laser beam that also is blinding RKA with linked flash. these are simply an MPA with linked as appropriate.

 

2. Throwing two separate powers at once. this is the basic mpa without linked.

 

3. Throwing the same power more than once - such as with sweep or rapid fire.

 

type 1 should not IMO inherit the sweep/rapid fire maneuver effects as they are IMo simply a building method for creating non-vanilla effects. a light blast that blinds and burns should not be presumed to be lower dcv than a regular light blast.

 

type 3 to me should have lots of restrictions and are the ones most at risk of being imbalancing without limitations since you buy the whole power once but use it multiple times at once. Getting two 12dc attacks to hit target but only paying for 60 is pretty balance-risky.

 

item 2 is likely where for me the in between lies -

 

here is where i usually draw the line myself -

 

while i usually do have a dc cap, i will allow AP totals above the dc limit if the extra ap is from "non-damaging" stuff to an extent. so for instance you can indeed have in my 12 dc game a 12d6 eb with personal immunity and 1/2 endurance since those really dont impact the damage done. i would disallow a 12d6 eb with AP even though it is the same net of 90 ap.

 

along similar vein i would allow DIFFERENT EFFECT MPAs to reach the same total, say 90 ap, but the catch is they do have to be different effects. A laser rka could add a flash for instance 4d6rka plus 30 ap of flash but could not add say a 3d6 nnd or similar avld that would be just piling on more stun.

 

but having myself never met a gm who allowed "two simultaneous 12dc attacks" in a 12dc capped game, i really cannot get all that worried about that.

 

4d6 RKA plus 3d6 sight flash is not the same umphh as a 5d6 rka when applied vs a 12dc limit game, so the balance here is not as simply as ap and dc and the need for multi-effect powers to me makes the broad brush of "make it all sweep/rapid fire totally unacceptable.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

Goes to show all games play out differently I guess. Same Mechanic, widely different experiences.

 

When you look at the rule it is exactly like getting hit by two different attacks, just happens to be from the same character. No damage adds together at any point (before defenses, or after to determine Stunning), you take the better of the Knockback (if used), if you miss both miss instead of two possible tries, it takes a full phase so you can't move (better close in and make sure they can't get away), you take the worst of the bonuses for Martial Maneuvers. . .

 

It's not breaking a DC Cap Limit because the damage never adds - it would be exactly (assuming two 12DC Attacks) like getting hit by two separate 12DC attacks completely.

 

Do you allow two players to shoot the same target in the same phase?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

Goes to show all games play out differently I guess. Same Mechanic, widely different experiences.

 

When you look at the rule it is exactly like getting hit by two different attacks, just happens to be from the same character. No damage adds together at any point (before defenses, or after to determine Stunning), you take the better of the Knockback (if used), if you miss both miss instead of two possible tries, it takes a full phase so you can't move (better close in and make sure they can't get away), you take the worst of the bonuses for Martial Maneuvers. . .

 

It's not breaking a DC Cap Limit because the damage never adds - it would be exactly (assuming two 12DC Attacks) like getting hit by two separate 12DC attacks completely.

 

Do you allow two players to shoot the same target in the same phase?

 

Does a MPA take a full phase? I had not appreciated that - that is some limitation, at least.

 

I'm obviously never going to be able to convince you that MPA is a problem if you have used it and not found it such, and vice versa. I'm just profoundly grateful that I'm not the only one who has had problems. Crises of confidence can be so upsetting.

 

As to the question - yes - of course I allow two players to shoot at a single opponent - two protagonists could attack the same target in a phase. If you outnumber the opposition it seems obvious you shoud have an advantage. What I'm not keen on is one character attacking an opponent twice without some sort of penalty.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

Does a MPA take a full phase? I had not appreciated that - that is some limitation, at least.

 

I'm obviously never going to be able to convince you that MPA is a problem if you have used it and not found it such, and vice versa. I'm just profoundly grateful that I'm not the only one who has had problems. Crises of confidence can be so upsetting.

 

As to the question - yes - of course I allow two players to shoot at a single opponent - two protagonists could attack the same target in a phase. If you outnumber the opposition it seems obvious you shoud have an advantage. What I'm not keen on is one character attacking an opponent twice without some sort of penalty.

 

I could never imagine you having a crisis of confidence; much less one caused by something I said

 

I never underestimate the ability of needing a Full Phase Action to execute something as being hampering to tactics.

 

If, IF, I were to feel the need to adjust anything about the MPA I would follow Tesuji's recommendation of requiring two different Effects be involved (Damage, Flash, Drain, etc. . .).

[Istaran]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

Same basic character:

 

Build A:

 

12DC EB (2 Shot Autofire +1/4) 75 points

Multipower Reserve (60 Active) 60 points

Slot 1: 30” Teleport (Fixed Slot) 6 points

Slot 2: 24” Teleport (1”=1Km)(Fixed Slot) 6 points

 

Total points: 147

 

Build B:

 

12DC EB 60 points

Multipower Reserve (60 Active) 60 points

Slot 1: 30” Teleport (Fixed Slot) 6 points

Slot 2: 24” Teleport (1”=1Km)(Fixed Slot) 6 points

Slot 3: 12D6 EB (Fixed Slot) 6 points

 

Total points: 138

 

What exactly is the downside of build B? Can not fire into an adjacent hex, but there is no OCV modifier to the second shot.

 

Build B can have minor manueverability issues, since he can't teleport and take both shots in a phase after taking both shots. (It'd be more balanced if he couldn't teleport and take both shots in the same phase period, but that's not quite how MP rules work.) I agree, B is superior to A. Let's see what's superior to B.

 

Build C:

 

12DC EB 60 points

Multipower Reserve (60 Active) 60 points

Slot 1: 30” Teleport (Fixed Slot) 6 points

Slot 2: 24” Teleport (1”=1Km)(Fixed Slot) 6 points

Slot 3: +12D6 EB (Fixed Slot) 6 points

 

Total points: 138

(I said no caps. 24DC EB is better than 2x12DC EB and costs the same.)

 

Build D:

 

Rapid Attack (Ranged) 5 points

+4 with Rapid Fire 8 points

+4 with EB 8 points

Multipower Reserve (90 Active) 90 points

Slot 1: 30” Teleport (Multi Slot) 12 points

Slot 2: 36” Teleport (1”=1Km)(Fixed Slot) 9 points

Slot 3: 12D6 EB (Fixed Slot) 6 points

 

Total points: 138

(This one's more offense-heavy. For single shots you have 4 more OCV. For multi attacks you take 1/2 DCV but get 3 shots at no to-hit penalty. The +4 OCV makes you a lot more likely to hit at all, and even hit multiple times even with the first miss ends. Also you have a longer range long-range teleport, and keep half your short-range teleport while firing.)

 

Build E:

 

+5 with EB#1 10 pts

EC (75 AP powers) pool 37 points

12D6 EB (Autofire 3) 38 points

30" Teleport (1"=1Km, optional +1/2) 53 points

 

Total points: 138

(The 3rd hit from the autofire is still +1 OCV over B's MPA OCV, and he still has both teleport options (the long range option is even longer range) an he can hit for three hits not just two.)

 

Build F:

 

+6 SPD 60 points

Multipower Reserve (60 Active) 60 points

Slot 1: 30” Teleport (Fixed Slot) 6 points

Slot 2: 24” Teleport (1”=1Km)(Fixed Slot) 6 points

Slot 3: 12D6 EB (Fixed Slot) 6 points

Total points: 138

(If B was not more than SPD 6, F can attack at least as often, even concidering that he might not be able to attack every phase. He can also easily get in some extra recoveries, perhaps from a kilometer away from the fight.)

[Istaran]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

I think you'll find that in a game capped at 60 AP/12DC' date=' for instance, there's nothing stopping you launching 2x12DC as a MPA, which is far more damage than you'll manage from any other attack including autofire, using the same caps. Of course if you cap the DC but not the active points and allow a 12DC autofire in your game, then you might have a point, but then then presumably you also have to allow 12DC NNDs, which is another barrel of frogs entirely.[/quote']

 

My suggestion is that the caps themselves make MPAs broken. This is because you are capping everything but MPAs. It'd be like if we capped income at $60k/year, and made an exception for people with multiple jobs. Why suddenly the richest people in the country are those with multiple jobs! Multiple jobs must be unbalanced! No, it's that the caps were applied in an unbalanced way.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

Build B can have minor manueverability issues' date=' since he can't teleport and take both shots in a phase after taking both shots. (It'd be more balanced if he couldn't teleport and take both shots in the same phase period, but that's not quite how MP rules work.) I agree, B is superior to A. Let's see what's superior to B.[/quote']

 

Actually - it's not the Multipower Pool rules preventing a Move & Double Shoot - it's the Multiple Power Attack rules that do as MPAs are a Full Phase Action.

 

You can't both Move and Multiple Power Attack in the same Phase not matter how the character is built.

 

Considering even Sean Waters expressed a little surprise that MPAs were a Full Phase Action I'm not wondering if those finding a balance issue with them in the game aren't applying the Mechanic correctly. Pure speculation on my part that one though.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

...

- it's the Multiple Power Attack rules that do as MPAs are a Full Phase Action.

 

You can't both Move and Multiple Power Attack in the same Phase not matter how the character is built.

...

 

Actually, that is only a suggested optional rule.

 

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360 ■ Combat And Adventuring Hero System 5th Edition, Revised

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RESTRICTING MULTIPLE-POWER ATTACKS

To prevent characters from over-using multiple-power attacks, the GM can impose restrictions similar to those on Rapid Fire and Sweep: for each power or maneuver added to the combination (including the first one) the character suffers a -2 OCV penalty; multiple-power attacks take a Full Phase; using one halves the character’s DCV.

[Comic]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

The point of the system is to be able to build any character that can be imagined.

 

MPAs reflect a real ability of characters.

 

Getting the mechanics to balance is the job of the players and the GM to collaboratively arrive at.

 

If MPAs are overused or unbalancing in play, there's likely some compromise or adjustment that can be made to counter the effect.