Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

[CTaylor]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

(and at that point why not buy autofire on a single attack instead? And use the points you would spend on the second 75 AP attack to buy 4 2pt levels so if you would have hit with the MPA you hit with 3 attacks from the autofire.)

 

Well for one thing autofire is a +1/2 advantage, and for another it's the same attack rather than different ones (flash, KA, etc). For another, your multiple power attack may include an autofire attack already. And for a final point, I suggested also an adder - a cheap one, 5 points perhaps - as an alternative. I think letting people for free launch as many attacks as they bought as opposed to Joe one-attack is an unreasonable and poorly built system.

 

A cheap adder or minor advantage would allow the GM to control this a bit more: did you pay for the ability to use all those at once? Then you can't.

[Kdansky]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

Why should it be unreasonable? If you buy two powers, you get to use two powers. You get Flight and EB, I get EB and another EB. That is not inherently broken. Basically, all powers which are not in a multipower (or VPP) and don't have Lockout are by definition usable at the same time. Defenses, Movement, Attacks, and all other things. If you have to pay for the right to MPA and you get a limitation if you can't do it, then what is the default where you don't do either?

[CTaylor]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

Yes, different powers are usable at the same time, but attacks? That's a separate class - at least it is to me. Having one strong punch when you spent the same points as bob over there who has seven blasts and can use them all at once seems to set the case out pretty well, to me. Both spent the same, one is grossly more effective in combat, not because of his build, but because of a rule that lets him empty everything he has at once.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

Yes' date=' different powers are usable at the same time, but attacks? That's a separate class - at least it is to me. Having one strong punch when you spent the same points as bob over there who has seven blasts and can use them all at once seems to set the case out pretty well, to me. Both spent the same, one is grossly more effective in combat, not because of his build, but because of a rule that lets him empty everything he has at once.[/quote']

 

For Bob to have seven blasts he can unload all at once, he has to have paid full points for each one. That's 350 points for 7 50 AP attacks.

 

For the same 350 points, that will be a VERY strong punch.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

...if you have to pay full whack for the powers.

 

First off if you have two ECs, for example, or a MP and an EC (it could happen) then there is nothing to stop you using attacks from both, and that is a lot less than (potentially) the cost of even one full power attack when you take into consideration the utility of other powers you gain.

 

Also if the +5 points is two bits of kit rule still applies to superheroes (and IIRC 4th ed Seeker used that, or something very like) then it is very cheap to MPA.

 

We also have to take into consideration the fact that you'd never allow a 120 point attack in a game where everyone was building around 12DC attacks, but MPAs can sneak under the radar as they are not individually point expensive, or no more so than any other power.

 

OK, that last objection is just petty but the first two need a look at.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

...if you have to pay full whack for the powers.

 

First off if you have two ECs, for example, or a MP and an EC (it could happen) then there is nothing to stop you using attacks from both, and that is a lot less than (potentially) the cost of even one full power attack when you take into consideration the utility of other powers you gain.

 

Sure. And I need an EC (150% of the power's cost to have two powers in it) and a Multipower (pool + slot costs).

 

Also if the +5 points is two bits of kit rule still applies to superheroes (and IIRC 4th ed Seeker used that' date=' or something very like) then it is very cheap to MPA.[/quote']

 

This is a bigger issue. But I could also buy a +1 PD/+1 ED/+1 Mental/+1 Power/+1 Sight Flash 2 0 END Force Field, IIF for 6 points, then spend 35 points Doubling it. I now have 128 of them, so +128 to all those defenses.

[Kdansky]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

+5 per doubling is outright stupid and we know it!

 

I don't see a problem if a character spends 350 points on 7 EBs so he can roll half a thousand dice. He's never going to hit anyway.

 

Also, it really sounds ridiculous to say: "That guy with the EB has spent less points on his attack than I have with strength!" Since you get strength for roughly free at 1:1.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

Sure. And I need an EC (150% of the power's cost to have two powers in it) and a Multipower (pool + slot costs).

 

 

........

 

 

Or you get 20 inches of flight at 0 END and a 20/20 0 END force field in the EC as well. You've spent 120 points, but then you'd have spent 120 points on that on the flight and FF, so the extra EB is free, from a certain perspective. Also the cost of a second EC is only another 30 points (the pool cost of the second one) so if you can think of another 2 powers you would have bought anyway another attack power in the second pool is also, effectively free.

 

As for the MP, well if you were going to buy 0 END desolid, that's 60 points, so you've paid for the pool there and it only costs an extra 6 for an EB (perhaps something about randomly phased particles).

 

Sure you've spent 120 points on two attacks from one perspective, but assuming all the other stuff you've bought you'd have bought anyway, from another way of looking at it you've spent almost nothing on 2x12DC attack powers.

 

Of course that is more a criticism of the abusability of frameworks, but there you go.

 

Another point that occurs: the second attack power can carry some pretty heavy limitations. For instance, you buy a 12d6 EB and then another...

 

Read 'Em And Weep 60 Active and real

Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points)

 

Also

 

Ace Up The Sleeve 60 active, 16 real

Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points); Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Beam (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Limited Range (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4), Reduced Penetration (-1/4)

 

The attack would be severely limited as a main attack power, and would severely limit the utility of the character if it was the only or main attack he had, but it is a cheap way to buy a second attack power that will be useful enough in a lot of situations, but which you don't need to rely on when the situation is not right. Generally you will be using the main 12d6 (unlimited) attack, so the fact it is a beam, with reduced penetration (which only really affects Body) and has limited range and other limitations won't bother you much. Being stuck in a silence field might be a pain but it is not going to cripple you.

 

So, 76 points and in a decent proportion of cases you can do twice the damage you normally would AND opponents can only take very limited advantage of your limitations because you still have the main EB.

 

OK, a pretty extreme example, but it illustrates the point.

[CTaylor]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

I dunno I just see being able to attack with lots of powers at once being an advantage over attacking with one power at once. Call me kooky.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

I dunno I just see being able to attack with lots of powers at once being an advantage over attacking with one power at once. Call me kooky.

 

 

You're kooky, but you're right.

 

What? He asked me to!

[pinecone]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

Yeah, the MPA just does not represent a "boost" when compared to an "apples to apples" test...even 5D6 NND MPA vs 10D6 NND....same stun? Sure, but do they both "stun" the target?

 

Does not the MPA work like a "Reduced Pen" attack? If so the MPA is an -1/4 equiv.

[Istaran]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

...if you have to pay full whack for the powers.

 

First off if you have two ECs, for example, or a MP and an EC (it could happen) then there is nothing to stop you using attacks from both, and that is a lot less than (potentially) the cost of even one full power attack when you take into consideration the utility of other powers you gain.

I mostly concider this fair.

You could have defenses on your base character, more defenses in an EC, and yet more defenses as a slot in your MP. They all add together and can be used at once. The defenses in your EC are drained as one with your other EC slots and your defenses in your MP can't be used at the same time as other slots. Otherwise they're all just plain cumulative, even though some were cheaper than others. You still had to pay at least half on the EC defenses, and you still had to pay for the full MP pool. The same thing could be said for Running or any other movement power.

 

And much more dangerous than an MPA, you could have an HA in your EC and +STR in your MP and just add the dice up into one big attack.

 

For multiple ECs, you're repaying for an EC pool. You're also creating a situation where you have to convince your GM to allow multiple ECs. But again if you had powers that can be added together into one big attack it will do more damage than if you MPA them together.

 

Also if the +5 points is two bits of kit rule still applies to superheroes (and IIRC 4th ed Seeker used that, or something very like) then it is very cheap to MPA.

 

I am not aware of any reason to allow the same power to be MPA'd with itself, or for defense from copies of the same object to stack etc. I agree that such things cause problems if they are allowed.

 

We also have to take into consideration the fact that you'd never allow a 120 point attack in a game where everyone was building around 12DC attacks, but MPAs can sneak under the radar as they are not individually point expensive, or no more so than any other power.

 

This is my biggest remaining objection to MPAs. They seem to be less powerful than their straight-points equivalent, but more powerful than their component parts. So they need to be brought in line with the DC caps and other limitations we expect everyone else to respect, but keeping them to the same caps seems to be overdoing it. At the very least, the GM should be made aware of power combinations that might end up being used in MPAs and evaluate them rather than just having them suddenly used as a surprise nova.

 

OK' date=' that last objection is just petty but the first two need a look at.[/quote']

[Istaran]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

I dunno I just see being able to attack with lots of powers at once being an advantage over attacking with one power at once. Call me kooky.

 

Being able to attack with X powers at power level Y is an advantage over being able to attack with 1 power at power level Y. Undeniably.

 

Being able to attack with X powers at power level Y / X versus being able to attack with 1 power at power level Y? That seems to favor the one power over the many.

 

Example:

Typical attacks in a campaign are 12DC. Typical defenses are 24 PD/ED, 12 rPD/rED.

 

Character A has a 12d6 EB and a 4d6 RKA in a MP. On an average roll his 12d6 EB does no BODY and 18 STUN. On an average BODY roll his RKA does 2 BODY, and when he wins the STUN lotto he deals 46 STUN.

 

Character B has a 6d6 EB and a 2d6 RKA bought openly. He MPAs them every phase. On an average roll his EB does no BODY and no STUN. His RKA cannot deal BODY against typical defenses, and even when he wins the STUN lotto he deals only 11 STUN on an average BODY roll.

 

As pinecone pointed out, NNDs can get close to breaking even. An MPA of NNDs is almost as good as one NND of the same total DCs, except that it is less likely to stun someone.

 

There's also the question of attacking with multiple different types of attack, but even there you're likely to lose out.

 

1) Regular damage (normal or killing): as we've seen gets wiped out by defenses if a component attack is half or less the DCs the target is built to handle.

2) Suppress/Drain: Here you run into trouble that you're trying to take a target down by attacking multiple different points, when they are incapacitated when any one of them is depleted. Most people attack STUN and to a lesser degree BODY. You can also incapacitate someone by depleting some of their other characteristics. A negative PRE character is likely to run away, a negative EGO character starts following orders from whoever speaks to him, etc. If you want to achieve one of those you need to focus on it, not split 50%/50% with doing normal damage or something else. Even if you target something like DEX or PD/ED to make them more susceptible to regular attacks, you're usually better off doing 100% Drain/Suppress as one attack and following up later with a direct damage attack.

3) Entangle: An Entangle with half the DEF/BODY will be utterly destroyed by an attack that would barely chip an appropriate level Entangle. While this might be useful for negating someone's DCV momentarily, it will not last. Better than some of the alternatives though.

4) Flash: Flash is probably the big winner in MPA land, as Flash Defense isn't universal even at high point levels, and a few segments of flash can be enough to matter, especially if you can reapply the Flash shortly thereafter.

5) NND: NNDs almost break even in MPAs, making them relatively strong choices for MPA building.

 

I don't have my book handy, so I'll stop the list there. My point is you're kooky.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

I mostly concider this fair.

You could have defenses on your base character, more defenses in an EC, and yet more defenses as a slot in your MP. They all add together and can be used at once. The defenses in your EC are drained as one with your other EC slots and your defenses in your MP can't be used at the same time as other slots. Otherwise they're all just plain cumulative, even though some were cheaper than others. You still had to pay at least half on the EC defenses, and you still had to pay for the full MP pool. The same thing could be said for Running or any other movement power.

 

And much more dangerous than an MPA, you could have an HA in your EC and +STR in your MP and just add the dice up into one big attack.

 

For multiple ECs, you're repaying for an EC pool. You're also creating a situation where you have to convince your GM to allow multiple ECs. But again if you had powers that can be added together into one big attack it will do more damage than if you MPA them together.

 

...............

 

 

Actually you can't normally do that: powers in different frameworks cannot add together, so defences in your MP and defences in your EC don't add, you just take the largest. Same with attacks (you can't even add STR from density increase in one framework to a HA or HKA in another!), same with anything. That is one of the restrictions on frameworks to balance them (5ER p 310), but there is nothing to stop you MPAing attacks from different frameworks.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

Actually you can't normally do that: powers in different frameworks cannot add together' date=' so defences in your MP and defences in your EC don't add, you just take the largest.[/quote']

 

Powers in different frameworks cannot add directly to one another, so I can't have +xd6 to my EC Energy Blast as a Multipower slot.

 

Nothing stops me having a Force Field in each of my frameworks, using both at the same time and adding the defenses together. If you have a force field in your EC and Armor in your Multipower, these are also separate powers, so they stack.

 

Same with attacks (you can't even add STR from density increase in one framework to a HA or HKA in another!)' date=' same with anything. That is one of the restrictions on frameworks to balance them (5ER p 310), but there is nothing to stop you MPAing attacks from different frameworks.[/quote']

 

Baloney. If your STR is increased by DI, Growth, what have you, you have an increased STR. That STR doesn't shut off when you swing the Baseball Bat carried in your Gadget Pool.

[Markdoc]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

Baloney. If your STR is increased by DI' date=' Growth, what have you, you have an increased STR. That STR doesn't shut off when you swing the Baseball Bat carried in your Gadget Pool.[/quote']

 

Actually Sean is right, here: that combo you outline is specifically disallowed. Here's the actual rules from page 310:

 

a character cannot use STR bought as a slot in one Power Framework (or the STR obtained from Density Increase or Growth bought as a slot) to add damage to an HA or HKA bought as a slot in the same or another Power Framework

 

So the extra STR from a framework cannot be added to the HA or HKA already in that or another framework. It doesn't actually make much logical sense, but is there purely for balance issues. I've actually seen this in action under 4th Ed., where a character with a 60 point VPP had extra STR, plus Aid to STR, plus HA, all operative at the same time, to crank a huge attack out (40d6 with his normal STR, IIRC).

 

As for the two defences, the rules state that you can only add powers from frameworks to something you already have:

For example, a character could have a Multipower slot of +10 PD, and a Variable Power Pool slot of +15 PD, that both added to his PD, since his PD is not in any Power Framework and the two powers are not adding to each other.

 

So you couldn't add (for example) two forcefields together and get a bigger forcefield - you'd just get the bigger of the two together. You could however use armor and Forcefield. They don't stack, to make a larger defence (so they remain two defences with lower active points), but their effects stack, which is almost as good.

 

cheers, Mark

[Istaran]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

Actually Sean is right, here: that combo you outline is specifically disallowed. Here's the actual rules from page 310:

 

And once again this thread is educational for me. Hurray for learning!

 

So the extra STR from a framework cannot be added to the HA or HKA already in that or another framework. It doesn't actually make much logical sense, but is there purely for balance issues. I've actually seen this in action under 4th Ed., where a character with a 60 point VPP had extra STR, plus Aid to STR, plus HA, all operative at the same time, to crank a huge attack out (40d6 with his normal STR, IIRC).

 

 

Is there anything stopping you from putting STR as a power (w/ focus perhaps or some other excuse?) in several frameworks and perhaps an Aid here or there and just Punching your target? In terms of Active points it's just as good. It serves a number of other purposes. And the 1/2 lim on HA is so much less valuable in a framework than on a standalone power. (Even more so when you already have a lim.)

Of course to some degree this could just become another tirade on the imbalance of STR as currently constituted: if you can add STR from several sources but can't do that with EB or anything else really then it's kind of imbalanced. You can MPA your EBs, but that as we've seen isn't as good.

 

As for the two defences, the rules state that you can only add powers from frameworks to something you already have:

 

So you couldn't add (for example) two forcefields together and get a bigger forcefield - you'd just get the bigger of the two together. You could however use armor and Forcefield. They don't stack, to make a larger defence (so they remain two defences with lower active points), but their effects stack, which is almost as good.

 

cheers, Mark

 

So you can at most add together PD/ED + Damage Resistance, Armor, Forcefield, and if you're stretching it a Force Wall and Damage Reduction. Desolidification for completeness sake. If you have more than 7 frameworks you might have issues. (Perhaps even subscriptions.) Except that you can just fall back on adding things in every framework to PD/ED or another pre-existing defense.

[pinecone]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

Well...maybe I'm slow and all...but if you cannot add two Frameworks why not disalow MPA from two frameworks? (I actually do it that way...who knows why?) But when I suggested it someone pointed out you can do that....so don"t do that...

[Istaran]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

Well...maybe I'm slow and all...but if you cannot add two Frameworks why not disalow MPA from two frameworks? (I actually do it that way...who knows why?) But when I suggested it someone pointed out you can do that....so don"t do that...

 

Perhaps because the inherent limitations of MPAs are needed to balance the cost savings of multiple frameworks? (such as they are)

[pinecone]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

Perhaps because the inherent limitations of MPAs are needed to balance the cost savings of multiple frameworks? (such as they are)

 

Likely so...I've always used the basic concept of "Full cost equals full utility" as a guide post ...so I look at all cost break functions closely.

 

And sure enough, most of the ways to break things use them. I flat out don't let MPA's be made from 5 pt double gadgets....pay full cost? (still low with OAF etc...) then all is on the table, feel free.

 

But like I've said I've been seeing them since hour one of version one, so I may use all sorts of "house rule" mods without even noticing that I do...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

Actually Sean is right, here: that combo you outline is specifically disallowed. Here's the actual rules from page 310:

 

 

 

So the extra STR from a framework cannot be added to the HA or HKA already in that or another framework. It doesn't actually make much logical sense, but is there purely for balance issues. I've actually seen this in action under 4th Ed., where a character with a 60 point VPP had extra STR, plus Aid to STR, plus HA, all operative at the same time, to crank a huge attack out (40d6 with his normal STR, IIRC).

 

As for the two defences, the rules state that you can only add powers from frameworks to something you already have:

 

 

So you couldn't add (for example) two forcefields together and get a bigger forcefield - you'd just get the bigger of the two together. You could however use armor and Forcefield. They don't stack, to make a larger defence (so they remain two defences with lower active points), but their effects stack, which is almost as good.

 

Is anyone else reminded of the d20 "stacking rules"? I don't care how the RAW read. The result is ludicrous. Particularly when having, say, Force Field in three frameworks will fai, but having Force Field in one, armor in a second and +PD and Damage Resistance in the third will work.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

...if you have to pay full whack for the powers.

 

First off if you have two ECs, for example, or a MP and an EC (it could happen) then there is nothing to stop you using attacks from both, and that is a lot less than (potentially) the cost of even one full power attack when you take into consideration the utility of other powers you gain.

 

Er, you're not taking into account the full package. And therefore your logic fails.

 

Given no Limitations and No Advantages. . .

 

Guy 1:

2 12DC/60AP Attacks = 120 Points. (let's say a pair of Energy Blast pistols)

 

Guy 2:

EC 1 - 30 Points, Pool

30 Points Power 1 (a movement power)

30 Points Power 2 (a 12DC/60AP Attack)

EC 2 - 30 Points, Pool

30 Points Power 1 (a defense power)

30 Points Power 2 (a 12DC/60AP Attack)

Cost = 180 Points

 

Guy 3:

EC - 30 Points, Pool

30 Points Power 1 (a movement power)

30 Points Power 2 (a 12DC/60AP Attack)

MP - 60 Points, Pool

6 Points Power 1 (a 12DC/60AP Attack)

6 Points Power 2 (a 12DC/60AP Attack of a different SFX)

Cost = 162 Points

 

Just within the context of Multiple Power Attacks, Guy 1 has come out way ahead in point cost - he's the most efficient MPA build.

 

There's no doubt as a total package that Frameworks will make a more efficient character overall through point savings.

 

But to say that they unfairly favor the MPA concept is just silly. They tip the balance Across The Board.

That's the appeal of them!

 

I guess my really issues is why using two Attack Powers in one Phase is inherently unbalanced. . . It never has been in any game I've played where it's been used.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

Er, you're not taking into account the full package. And therefore your logic fails.

 

Given no Limitations and No Advantages. . .

 

..........................

 

Just within the context of Multiple Power Attacks, Guy 1 has come out way ahead in point cost - he's the most efficient MPA build.

 

There's no doubt as a total package that Frameworks will make a more efficient character overall through point savings.

 

But to say that they unfairly favor the MPA concept is just silly. They tip the balance Across The Board.

That's the appeal of them!

 

Each guy has 2 x 12d6 EB. If you take into account the 'full package' as you put it, Guy 1 is either going to have to buy movement and defensive powers or he's going to not last long.

 

I appreciate that frameworks help across the board, what I'm saying is that you are not paying for 2 attacks, at least not in full. I said that to address points other posters had made that 2 x 12d6 is not as useful as 24d6 (and of course it isn't...but then you are not necessarily paying the full whack...which was my point). So, hopefully, not so silly.

 

I guess my really issues is why using two Attack Powers in one Phase is inherently unbalanced. . . It never has been in any game I've played where it's been used.

 

Well, if you look at the sample characters in the rule book, they can only take 2 to 3 attacks before being unconscious (ignoring recoveries) and if they are representative then being able to do two attacks in one phase is going to end things quickly. i know we are always banging on about speeding up combat, but come on....

 

In a game with active point caps, or even eyeball point caps, MPA circumvents that legally. If you have not seen MPA in its full, awesome majesty then you are in for a treat when it happens.

 

One other point,;we have been talking about EB but if you MPA KAs then you also circumvent the most common apologist argument - that there is a good chance of doing no damage. Firing off two at once substantially increases the chances of a stunning hit.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

.................

 

Baloney. If your STR is increased by DI, Growth, what have you, you have an increased STR. That STR doesn't shut off when you swing the Baseball Bat carried in your Gadget Pool.

 

I'm not suggesting that is how it should be, just how it is. It's on the list, don't worry

[Istaran]

Re: Multiple Power Attacks: How much is too much?

 

Each guy has 2 x 12d6 EB. If you take into account the 'full package' as you put it' date=' Guy 1 is either going to have to buy movement and defensive powers or he's going to not last long.[/quote']

 

How about Guy 4:

60 Points Power 1 (a 12DC/60AP Attack)

+

EC 1 - 30 Points, Pool

30 Points Power 2 (a movement power)

30 Points Power 3 (a 12DC/60AP Attack)

30 Points Power 4 (a defense power)

Cost = 180 Points (same as 2x EC guy, probably easier to justify, and has the same capabilities.)

 

Paying for a second EC eliminates the cost savings on the second attack power. And may end up -more- costly if you're dealing with limitations on the attack that aren't on the other powers.

 

Or Guy 5:

EC 1 - 30 points, Pool

90 Points Power 1 (a 24DC/60AP Attack)

30 Points Power 2 (a defense power)

30 Points Power 3 (a movement power)

Cost = 180 Points (same as 2x EC guy and has the 2x DC attack you thought you were saving compared to.)

 

When you make multiple ECs to be able to MPA, the EC pool cost typically eliminates the savings from one of the powers involved, so you don't come out any better off than a single EC. Though admittedly you might be able to fanangle things better with that approach when dealing with uneven power levels. Like a 75 AP EC and a 45 AP EC, both with attack powers that can be MPAd, but with other powers distributed between them in a pragmatic fashion.

 

I appreciate that frameworks help across the board' date=' what I'm saying is that you are not paying for 2 attacks, at least not in full. I said that to address points other posters had made that 2 x 12d6 is not as useful as 24d6 (and of course it isn't...but then you are not necessarily paying the full whack...which was my point). So, hopefully, not so silly.[/quote']

 

The amount you are paying is proportional to the AP you are wielding, whether we are talking about MPAs or single uber-attacks.

For ECs, the cost of the pool eliminates the costs savings on one power in the pool, so splitting your powers into two pools in order to MPA one power from each saves you nothing, especially if you're looking at even power levels. For MP the pool cost is at least as expensive as the power in question would have been. In whole the MP is generally at least 20% more expensive, but comes with an alternative use for the points. That's what MPs do after all.

Also, frameworks tend to limit the returns on your limitations, especially the more power-specific limitations. Why no, you can't take Reduced Penetration on your EC pool that includes your defense power. Nor can you have No Knockback on your EC pool that includes your movement power. And do you really want OAF on your whole MP?

 

Well' date=' if you look at the sample characters in the rule book, they can only take 2 to 3 attacks before being unconscious (ignoring recoveries) and if they are representative then being able to do two attacks in one phase is going to end things quickly. i know we are always banging on about speeding up combat, but come on.... [/quote']

 

But as mentioned earlier, you automatically have the ability to take 2-3 attacks by virtue of Sweep/Rapid Attack rules, and it's usually cheaper to eliminate almost all of the penalties than to buy a whole new attack. You can use the point savings to up your OCV further to offset the first-miss-ends-the-chain issue (at which point you're more likely to hit with all of them, and much more likely to hit with at least one).

 

In a game with active point caps' date=' or even eyeball point caps, MPA circumvents that legally. If you have not seen MPA in its full, awesome majesty then you are in for a treat when it happens.[/quote']

 

This remains my one true concern with MPAs. Though it's hard for me to justify Sweep/Rapid Attack and deny MPAs.

 

One other point' date=';we have been talking about EB but if you MPA KAs then you also circumvent the most common apologist argument - that there is a good chance of doing no damage. Firing off two at once substantially increases the chances of a stunning hit.[/quote']

 

Not really. If you MPA attacks at the same DCs as other people are single-attacking, you come out ahead, flat out, no matter what type of attack. Same as if you Sweep or Rapid Attack at the same DCs as other people are single-attacking.

The 'good chance of doing no damage' argument only comes in when you're adding attacks together whose DCs add to what other people are throwing in one attack (or maybe a little more with my adjusted damage cap speculation). So for example:

MPA - 2x 2d6 RKA.

On an average BODY, max STUNx attack you deal 35 STUN. On a 'perfect' hit you deal 60 STUN.

Single attack: 1x 4d6 RKA.

On an average BODY, max STUNx attack you deal 70 STUN. On a 'perfect' hit you deal 120 STUN.

 

Suppose someone has a mighty 12 rPD/ 24 PD / 18 CON. An average 12d6 Normal attack deals 42 STUN and just barely fails to stun this person. For the MPA, you have two shots at stunning him with your 2x2d6KA.

For each attack:

If STUNx = 1-3, you cannot stun.

If STUNx = 4, you stun only on 11-12 BODY, 3 of 216 possible rolls.

If STUNx = 5, you stun only on 9-12 BODY, 10 of 216 possible rolls.

For a total of 13 of 216 possible rolls per attack.

That comes out to 5447 of 46,656 rolls overall will stun the target. Or about 12%. You also cannot deal BODY damage with this attack against this target.

 

For 1x4d6KA:

For the attack:

If STUNx = 1, you cannot stun.

If STUNx = 2, you stun only on a 22-24 BODY, 15 of 7776 possible rolls.

If STUNx = 3, you stun only on a 15-24 BODY, 575 of 7776 possible rolls.

If STUNx = 4, you stun only on a 11-24 BODY, 1090 of 7776 possible rolls.

If STUNx = 5, you stun only on a 9-24 BODY, 1226 of 7776 possible rolls.

For a grand total of 2906 of 7776 possible rolls, or about 37%.

You also deal BODY about 2/3 of the time.

 

For 2x 2.5d6 KA: (what my estimations figure should be allowed if a 12DC daamge caps is in place for single attacks)

For each attack: (counting the 1/2 die as 1d3 for simplicity)

If STUNx = 1-2, you cannot stun.

If STUNx = 3, you stun only on 15 BODY, 1 of 648 possible rolls.

If STUNx = 4, you stun only on 11-15 BODY, 31 of 648 possible rolls.

If STUNx = 5, you stun only on 9-15 BODY, 62 of 648 possible rolls.

For a total of 94 of 648 possible rolls per attack.

That comes out to 11298 of 419904 rolls overall will stun the target. Or about 27%. You deal BODY damage with this attack against this target about 3% of the time.