Adjusting adjustment

[Sean Waters]

OK, been chatting and here's an idea that came out of it:

 

Get rid of adjustment powers.

 

Replace with normal attacks but allow the damage result to be applied as characteristic point damage to any power or characteristic defined at purchase.

 

Normal defences apply (unless bought NND or AVLD).

 

All reduced characteristics/powers use REC to recover with.

 

There's more to it but that is the basic idea. Thoughts?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Adjusting adjustment

 

Well, you devalue power defence this way and put an even greater premium on PD and ED.

 

Why should PD or ED have impact on adjustment powers?

 

I'm open to be convinced but this is a question I would need answered first...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Adjusting adjustment

 

Well, you devalue power defence this way and put an even greater premium on PD and ED.

 

Why should PD or ED have impact on adjustment powers?

 

I'm open to be convinced but this is a question I would need answered first...

 

Sfx, in short.

 

I fire off my electrical attack that doesn't hurt so much as scramble your brain. Logical defence? I'd say energy defence.

 

I hit you with a nerve pinch or a blow designed to paralyse muscle. Logical defence? I'd say physical defence.

 

I hit you with a series of carefully chosen words and phrases designed to undermine your confidence. Logical defence? I'd say mental defence.

 

I hit you with a swirling mass of light designed to hit the hypnotic frequencies and subvert your will. Logical defence? I'd say sight flash defence.

 

I hit you with a gravonic pulse designed to neutralise mass and friction, making it impossible for you to run away. Logical defence? I'd say there is not a 'normal' defence, but you could largely ignore the attack if you had flight or gravomagnetic or mass altering powers of you own. (NND)

 

I hit you with a poison dart that rapidly destroys your internal organs. Logical defence? Well, not getting the poison through your skin and, if it does get through, having a non-standard metabolism. (NND again)

 

I can't think of a single sfx for power defence that would cover all those bases, and I really don't think we need power defence as such. Basing adjustment on pd and ed is a good base, and you can modify that with advantages.

 

You could keep power defence and, if you are 'adjusted' it adds to the appropriate defence (pd, ed, flash, mental) as a sort of catch all.

 

In addition I'd probably allow 'constitution', the characteristic as an alternative 'primary' defence (like pd and ed) because I can see a lot of effects being 'pain based' (or whatever) and that sounds like a useful sort of defence to that.

 

We might need to look at how damage reduction works, but that should not be difficult, and there are a number of other issues (dispel and transform to name but two) we need to look at in detail if the initial idea passes muster.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Adjusting adjustment

 

Sfx' date=' in short.[/quote']

 

OK, I'm sold. Work me up a full proposal and I'll give you my full consideration!

 

What are the complications? Healing? Regeneration? What about Aid etc? You thinking of changing the basis of those as well?

 

What defence would you use to prevent a magician changing you into a mouse? You thinking of having to change the defence used for Transform as well?

 

 

Doc

[ghost-angel]

Re: Adjusting adjustment

 

How do you handle positive adjustments. Or total change adjustments like Transform?

[JmOz]

Re: Adjusting adjustment

 

I do like the idea of getting rid of PowD

[Sean Waters]

Re: Adjusting adjustment

 

OK, I'm sold. Work me up a full proposal and I'll give you my full consideration!

 

What are the complications? Healing? Regeneration? What about Aid etc? You thinking of changing the basis of those as well?

 

What defence would you use to prevent a magician changing you into a mouse? You thinking of having to change the defence used for Transform as well?

 

 

Doc

 

 

Just thinking aloud here but...

 

Normal attack, normal defences, damage roll can be applied as a normal attack or as character point ‘damage’ to any characteristic or power. The usual adjustment power modifiers apply, so two characteristics simultaneously would be +1/2, for example. You can AVLD or NND if you like. Lost characteristics come back at REC/turn or slower if you have bought an advantage to do that (+1/4 per step up time chart)

 

Transform: do notional ‘Body’ damage, and when Body would be reduced to zero the target is transformed (this actually works the same as a cosmetic transform, requiring the same result total. For minor transform you need 2x Body and for major transform you need 3x Body.

 

Aid and transfer are probably advantages: I might do as a +1 advantage - can apply the points rather than remove them and, maybe for +2 you can remove points and add them to something else them. I think that added points should probably fade at 5/turn rather than REC per turn, and would still be subject to a ‘max dice roll’ rule.

 

Healing….hmmm. I’m tempted to just say that healing is a +1 advantage similar to an aid build: points added only up to normal maximum but do not fade.

[GamePhil]

Re: Adjusting adjustment

 

I started working on removing a lot of attack powers a few weeks before 6th was announced, and have put it on hold until I see the new system (if I was actively gaming, I'd still work on it in spite of the announcement, but I'm not, so I don't). Of course, there I was also working toward eliminating Mental Powers and whatnot, too, but nevermind that.

 

I think reverse damage could simply be reverse damage: same cost but opposite effect. The weird thing is that it would logically then be applied to defenses, requiring NND to allow it to heal you while bypassing them. Which is pretty much a long-winded way of saying that a +1 Advantage sounds pretty acceptable.

[casualplayer]

Re: Adjusting adjustment

 

Aid is just Characteristics or Powers Usable by Others and Additive (enhances existing similar abilities.) Flavor it with Continuing Charges, Continuous or give it a Fade Rate with Limited Power.

 

Transfer has always been an Aid/Drain hybrid and could easily be constructed if you could "damage" characteristics and powers.

 

If making this change I would suggest going from PD/ED/MD/PowD and have just DEF as a derived characteristic, that protects from all versions of aggression, and characters could buy additional DEF limited to protect against attack types they are particularly resilient to.

[schir1964]

Re: Adjusting adjustment

 

Adjustment Attacks (0 Level Modifier For Normal Attacks)

This modifier redefines a normal attack as doing adjustment damage instead of Stun/Body damage. The SFX of the attack dictates what type of defense applies. The player defines the SFX and what Characteristic/Power the attack affects. Then based on the SFX the defense that reduces the attack is selected. The affected target loses the amount of active points rolled on the dice and recovers those points via the normal Recovery rules. Also, if a target power is Defense, the effect is halved.

 

Components

• Modifier: 0 Level Modifier For Normal Attacks
  
• Defense: Based on SFX of attack.
  
• Recovery: Post Segment 12 Recovery or Recovery Action
  
• vs Defense: Effect of attack is halved.
  

How's this?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: Adjusting adjustment

 

Here's the requested full work up of my proposal - not play tested and posted for vigorous criticism. I've included some reasoning and construction considerations so you can hopefully see why I've gone here.

 

Attack powers

An option to allow you to ‘damage’ END.

For +0 you can have an attack power that damages END rather than STUN (and BODY). It still does KB unless you buy it not to.

For +1/4 you can have an attack power that damages END or STUN (and BODY). You can define it so that it damages END if there is END available, then STUN if that is available then BODY if that is available, but if you take this option you are stun with it operating in that way.

For +1/2 you can have an attack power that damages END and STUN (and BODY).

Adjustment powers

We could have a substantial overhaul.

All adjustment powers become ranged and cost END, and are defended against by PD or ED (defined when power bought). If you want them to operate against a different defence or no normal defence, buy AVLD or NND for the power.

Adjustment powers cost the following per 1d6:

Dispel (switch off power): 3 points per 1d6

Drain (reduce power): 5 points per 1d6

Suppress (continuous instant effect power reduction): 5 points per 1d6

Transform (alter target): 5 points per 1d6, operates against maximum BODY

Aid (increase power): 10 points per 1d6

Healing (recover from damage): 10 points per 1d6

Succour (continuous instant effect power increase): 10 points per 1d6

Transfer (reduce points of target and increase points of same or another target): 10 points per 1d6

We’ll be ditching Absorption on favour of a build using Aid.

Dispel no longer destroys focuses, it just switches them off.

Power Defence becomes an optional defence. If it is allowed it has to take a ‘meta sfx’, for example, Magic or Biochemical or UltraTech and it ONLY applies to adjustment powers under the appropriate broad heading but it adds to any other applicable defence or, if the attack is NND, still acts to reduce the ‘damage’ total.

Fade rate for adjustment powers is the REC of the target or the recipient. For a +1/4 advantage you can set the fade rate at 5 points. You can still buy an advantage to make the fade/recovery rate slower, although it is now +1/2 to go to REC/minute and +1/4 per step on the time chart thereafter.

As usual, ‘damage’ is in character points so, to adjust a point of Body takes 2 points of effect.

All the usual adjustment power modifiers apply except as noted above.

Why the cost changes?

Well, if PD and ED are the standard defences we need a higher total to get through so ‘damaging’ adjustment powers are based on the same cost as other damaging powers: 5 points per 1d6. In most campaigns this should make little difference to adjustment ‘damage’ through defences.

Suppress used to cost half what drain did but it shouldn’t: starting with drain to get to Suppress we start with the advantage that there is no fade rate, and require a limitation that the power has to be maintained, or all suppressed points recover instantly. That is like adding CONTINUOUS and INSTANT to the EFFECT (not the power as such), which, in my book, is a wash. The same reasoning applies to Succour. IMO Suppress was too powerful an effect for the points and consequently hardly ever got used.

Transform works on a set cost, but the TOTAL you need depends on the nature of the effect. For instance, for a cosmetic transform you need to do adjustment ‘damage’ equal to the normal maximum Body. For a Minor transform it is Bodyx2 and for a major transform it is Bodyx3. This seems more logical to me as it is no harder to do adjustment ‘damage’ but you still need to work harder for a greater effect. In addition a GM can allow transformation of PART of a target for half the above totals (Body/2 for cosmetic, Body for Minor and Body x 1½ for major) – it should not cost the same to make someone blind as to turn them into a stone statue.

Dispel no longer destroys focuses – that never seemed to make sense as such. If you want to do that then link a penetrating 1 pip RKA and the dispelled power is destroyed.

Transfer costs the same as Aid despite what appears to be increased utility. In fact you can only transfer abilities if you have something to drain them from so it is less useful than having Drain + Aid. In essence the more expensive part (Aid ) is linked to the drain, so the cost should be 5+(10/1.25)=13, but I’m feeling generous.

Healing works on the total you can roll on the dice not the largest total you do roll, so with a 1d6 healing you can heal 6 points, however many rolls it might take (rolls of 2,2 and 2 would heal 6 points). The maximum you can roll is the maximum you can heal per day, but you can increase the recovery rate with the existing advantage. Healing and Aid are linked in that, with Aid you can Aid as often as you like and can exceed normal starting values but the added points fade. Healing only allow increases to the starting values and can only heal a certain number of points per day but the points do not fade. For a +1/2 advantage you can buy both: the power heals up to the maximum roll/day but can add points over starting value and add as often as you like BUT points over starting value and over the maximum roll/day always fade.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Adjusting adjustment

 

One more thing, I think you should define whether your adjustment power affects 'living' targets or inanimate targets. For a +1/2 advantage it can affect both. This is to get around the problem that SOME adjustments are more useful than others - you'll always be able to find something with a Body characteristic to drain, for example, whereas you won't always find something with PRE to drain.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Adjusting adjustment

 

Aid is just Characteristics or Powers Usable by Others and Additive (enhances existing similar abilities.) Flavor it with Continuing Charges, Continuous or give it a Fade Rate with Limited Power.

 

Transfer has always been an Aid/Drain hybrid and could easily be constructed if you could "damage" characteristics and powers.

 

If making this change I would suggest going from PD/ED/MD/PowD and have just DEF as a derived characteristic, that protects from all versions of aggression, and characters could buy additional DEF limited to protect against attack types they are particularly resilient to.

 

 

You are right about Aid being buildable as a UBO advantaged power, but the effect is common enough that I think it deserves its own power, if only for the sake of those new to the game finding it easier. My proposal is based on the Hero mantra 5 points=1d6, at least as far as damage goes.

 

I've also thought about a DEF characteristic but the problem is cost. It is a wash if you have all your DEF values the same but it penalises the creative builder who wants to have twice as much energy defence as physical defence because the active points are still the same, even if the real points are less, which makes some constructs, especially when using frameworks, unuseable.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Adjusting adjustment

 

Healing works on the total you can roll on the dice not the largest total you do roll' date=' so with a 1d6 healing you can heal 6 points, however many rolls it might take (rolls of 2,2 and 2 would heal 6 points). The maximum you can roll is the maximum you can heal per day, but you can increase the recovery rate with the existing advantage. Healing and Aid are linked in that, with Aid you can Aid as often as you like and can exceed normal starting values but the added points fade. Healing only allow increases to the starting values and can only heal a certain number of points per day but the points do not fade. For a +1/2 advantage you can buy both: [b']the power heals up to the maximum roll/day but can add points over starting value and add as often as you like BUT points over starting value and over the maximum roll/day always fade.[/b]

 

I'm not sure precisely what you intend here. I assume it is that:

 

- points in excess of starting value always fade

AND

- points in excess of the maximum roll/day always fade

 

Such that, if I have healed 24 STUN with my 4d6, and get knocked down another 20 STUN, anything I add will fade because my maximum Heal was already used.

 

Overall, I think this provides a decent baseline to start from. I find keeping Transfer (rather than a Linked Drain + Aid) inconsistent with ditching Absorb in favour of a limited Aid. Ditching Transfer would facilitate taking a Linked Drain and Heal (Transfer that heals instead of Aiding), or a Linked Aid/Heal using the +1/2 advantage you suggest.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Adjusting adjustment

 

I'm not sure precisely what you intend here. I assume it is that:

 

- points in excess of starting value always fade

AND

- points in excess of the maximum roll/day always fade

 

Such that, if I have healed 24 STUN with my 4d6, and get knocked down another 20 STUN, anything I add will fade because my maximum Heal was already used.

 

That looks to be precisely what I intended.

 

Overall' date=' I think this provides a decent baseline to start from. I find keeping Transfer (rather than a Linked Drain + Aid) inconsistent with ditching Absorb in favour of a limited Aid. Ditching Transfer would facilitate taking a Linked Drain and Heal (Transfer that heals instead of Aiding), or a Linked Aid/Heal using the +1/2 advantage you suggest.[/quote']

 

I suggested ditching absorb because it doesn't work at all like other adjustment powers. I did think about linking drain and aid for transfer but the thing about transfer is that you can't move the points unless there aer points to move. With a linked power, so long as you fire off the drain the aid works, even if the drain had no actual effect. Also it works backways - you can't transfer points when you are 'full' so you can't use the drain. Take those additional limtations into account and it works out damn close to 10 points without having to build a construct. If you want to spend more on it you can still link drain and aid - nothing wrong with that.

 

I suppose absorb is Aid that is triggered, which should make it more expensive, but the trigger HAS to be getting hit, which is usually not a good thing, so we could put it in as an Aid variant at 10 points per 1d6.

 

One other note I went with a more expensive 'benefit' adjustment as opposed to damage adjustment rather than an advantage because it makes a difference to advantage cost, and I don't like advantages that change the power so that it does not work in the original fashion (with added yummy goodness ).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Adjusting adjustment

 

I did think about linking drain and aid for transfer but the thing about transfer is that you can't move the points unless there aer points to move. With a linked power' date=' so long as you fire off the drain the aid works, even if the drain had no actual effect. Also it works backways - you can't transfer points when you are 'full' so you can't use the drain. Take those additional limtations into account and it works out damn close to 10 points without having to build a construct. If you want to spend more on it you can still link drain and aid - nothing wrong with that.[/quote']

 

I've looked at this the other way - that the Drain aspect of Transfer should still work even when the Aid aspect is tapped out - so I agree that the present 15 points is significantly overpriced. It is exacerbated by the FAQ (IIRC) statement that, if you want an advantage to apply to both the Aid and Drain components, you have to buy it twice.

 

If Transfer stays a separate power, I think those issues need to be resolved. If Transfer gets ditched in favour of Linked Drain and Aid, this construct needs to be a sample writeup.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Adjusting adjustment

 

Agreed

[prestidigitator]

Re: Adjusting adjustment

 

EDIT: Re-write. Ignore my previous post if you read it. I was repeating because obviously my reading comprehension the first time around was crap.

 

I've looked at this the other way - that the Drain aspect of Transfer should still work even when the Aid aspect is tapped out - so I agree that the present 15 points is significantly overpriced. It is exacerbated by the FAQ (IIRC) statement that' date=' if you want an advantage to apply to both the Aid and Drain components, you have to buy it twice.[/quote']

 

Yeah. Buy it twice? If you wanted an Advantage to apply to one end, you should only have to apply it to the partial cost of the Drain/Aid half anyway, right? So you are already paying too much for a single Advantage that doesn't apply to both and giving and receiving ends....