New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

[Utech]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

What you've done (and don't get me wrong, I have no issue with the idea) is state that the Invulnerable Advantage on the Force Field applies so all SFX.

 

But Mechanically RAW it would only work against something where the Force Field applies as a defense.

 

I appreciate the feedback!

 

Naturally, this goes against the RAW because this is a new Mechanic.

 

It is important to note that the Invulnerability Advantage I suggested does not rely on any defense. Though Invulnerability is applied to the most expensive defense the character possesses, once in place the character is invulnerable to that sfx full stop.

 

IF the NND defense is LS: Heat then the FF is Mechanically uninvolved. And Mechanically would not stop such Heat SFX Damage. By deciding it does you have made an arbitrary Game Level decision and claimed it's a Mechanic.

 

No claims, just a suggestion. This is definitely an Advantage that would change Mechanics in the game. The original poster was looking for something larger in scope, but there seemed to be some interest in an invulnerability Mechanic and this occurred to me as a possible starting place.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

I appreciate the feedback!

 

Naturally, this goes against the RAW because this is a new Mechanic.

 

It is important to note that the Invulnerability Advantage I suggested does not rely on any defense. Though Invulnerability is applied to the most expensive defense the character possesses, once in place the character is invulnerable to that sfx full stop.

 

The only strict rules-related drawback to that I can see is, what if his most expensive defense is 8 points? I'd probably set some flat, though relatively high, cost.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

The only strict rules-related drawback to that I can see is' date=' what if his most expensive defense is 8 points? I'd probably set some flat, though relatively high, cost.[/quote']

 

The counter to that is

-if it's in a game where 8 points worth of Defense is high then it's still costed appropriately.

-If it's in a game where 8 points worth of Defense is phenomenally low, then they're probably going to splat pretty quickly.

 

And it is noted that it was presented as Defensive Power; if you adjust that so it's "the characters main defensive capability" then you might be more on the mark.

 

I have one character in a 900 point game who has very low defenses. She gets hit and she is probably dead. Her Defensive Capability, however, is well over 100 points worth of Invisibility Power; can't hit what you can't see. If you force the Advantage onto that ability it costs more in line with the possible utility.

[Trebuchet]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

IIRC your Invulnerability was unkillability - I think that what most invulnerability seeksers seek is unhurtability - taking neither Body nor Stun.

Correct. My version prevented only BODY damage from physical and/or energy attacks (even Advantaged ones); it did nothing to stop Stun damage or Adjustment Powers. It was intended to be another useful tool in the toolkit, not something that would rework the entire Hero combat system as this thread's OP was proposing.

[Checkmate]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

RE: Utech's solution:

 

Let's say we're talking about a 10/10 Force Field is my most expensive defense, and I want to be invulnerable to heat/flame based attacks.

 

Am I only invulnerable when my force field is up? What if I want to be invulnerable all the time, but still have a Force Field?

 

My suggestion is that by default Invulnerability is a constant power. If you attach it to something that is persistent, Armor, PD, ED etc. you must also buy the Persistent advantage for the entire defense. If you wanted the Invulnerability AND the Force Field to be persistent, you'd have to buy Persistent twice.

 

My major problem with the Utech method ( ) is if I spend 100 points on a Killer AVLD energy blast, how is it fair that your 40 point (using an example) defense totally negates it?

 

My suggestion here would be that you are only Invulnerable to attacks with active points that are equal to or less than the active points of your Defense with the Invulnerable Advantage. If the attack has a higher active point, then you get to value of the defense against the attack.

 

So going back to my Force Field example let's say with all the advantages, including Invulnerability it comes out to 50 Active points. I get hit with a 4d6 AVLD Heat Blast. I would take no damage. The next time I get hit with a 5d6 AVLD Heat Blast. The attacker would roll the damage, let's say it was 17 STUN. I would subtract the value of my defense against this attack, or 10 points, so I would take 7 STUN. You still have to look at SFX of the attack to determine if you should use PD or ED.

 

How does that sound?

[Utech]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

RE: Utech's solution:

 

Let's say we're talking about a 10/10 Force Field is my most expensive defense, and I want to be invulnerable to heat/flame based attacks.

 

Am I only invulnerable when my force field is up? What if I want to be invulnerable all the time, but still have a Force Field?

 

By my half-baked suggestion, you're Invulnerable all the time. The Force Field is the basis of costing your Invulnerability, not the source of your Invulnerability.

 

You would still have the Force Field. And that's good. Because if someone attacks you with something you are not Invulnerable to (highly likely, I'd say), you'll want that defense!

 

Since the suggestion is half-baked, costing is way up in the air. It could include different costings for different types of defense and/or different sorts of sfx (rare, common, very common, etc.)

 

My major problem with the Utech method ( ) is if I spend 100 points on a Killer AVLD energy blast' date=' how is it fair that your 40 point (using an example) defense totally negates it?[/quote']

 

At the risk of being beaten, it's absolutely fair.

 

The defender choose the right sfx to be Invulnerable to. Or the attacker choose the wrong sfx for his attack power. C'est la vie.

 

My suggestion here would be that you are only Invulnerable to attacks with active points that are equal to or less than the active points of your Defense with the Invulnerable Advantage. If the attack has a higher active point' date=' then you get to value of the defense against the attack.[/quote']

 

That defeats the purpose of this exercise. Invulnerable = Invulnerable. No ifs ands or buts.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

One of the problems with sfx based anything is being careful about the sfx. If you are invulnerable (or just plain resistant) to heat, are you also invulnerable/resistant to lasers? You SHOULD be - lasers (most lasers) work by heating up the target. You should probably also be at least partly resistant to electricity, as at least part of the damage it causes is heat based. There probably are not that many energy sfx as we think.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

It's actually a better example since the ritual lists at least 2 bonds it doesn't effect in the description, and has a 10 minute interruptable cast time. Not to mention, according to the write up, it's generally reserved for NPCs.

 

All that aside, I just want to say I completely agree with Markdoc. I'll add that the Fantasy Hero solution seems to most accurately simulate the comics. Caps shield is Invulnerable UNTIL he meets the Beyonder etc.

 

If you build Cap's Shield as a block/missile deflect then the amount of damage becomes irrelevant. That is a form of invulnerability I suppose - it ignores damage at least because it interrupts the process of causing damage before it gets that far. No real point there - just musing.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

By my half-baked suggestion' date=' you're Invulnerable all the time. The Force Field is the basis of [i']costing[/i] your Invulnerability, not the source of your Invulnerability.

 

You would still have the Force Field. And that's good. Because if someone attacks you with something you are not Invulnerable to (highly likely, I'd say), you'll want that defense!

 

But really, both options should exist. FlameBoy may be Invulnerable to fire at all times, while ForceMan needs his impenetrable force field up to be invulnerable.

 

I dislike basing the cost on your "highest defense power". Consider two characters:

 

Gargoyle has 30 PD, 30 ED and Damage Resistance 20/20. All his defenses come from one source.

 

DeviceMan has 10 PD, 10 ED, an armored suit +10/+10 Armor and a 10/10 Force Field.

 

Why should it be cheaper for DeviceMan to be invulnerable? They both have the same defenses.

 

For that matter, why should someone with high defenses pay more to be invulnerable? With high defenses, being invulnerable is actually less useful, because fewer effects would do significant, or any, damage anyway.

[sindyr]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Wow! A lot of very interesting posts on the thread since I had to take a break. I wrote a response, something that may fix a bunch of issues. A bunch still remain, most notable what Sean Waters noted as costing such abilities appropriately when different games have different point levels. What was well balanced for one level of game is too cheap or too expensive in another. I have the ruminations of a modification to the system below that could accounts for this issue by combining the system below with Chris’ idea of scalars (mundane, hero, super, cosmic, etc.) but I need to ruminate on it further. In the meanwhile, here’s what I have done:

 

Introduction and Please Don’t Hurt Me.

 

OK, posted the original idea and, well, let’s just say it wasn’t well received. Upon reflection, I think a *part* of that was seemingly because of my unfortunate choice of the word *absolute* to represent the base idea. People seemed to have at least two main issues with that word and concept.

 

First of all, people kept focusing on what happens when two Absolute Abilities are in opposition. It kept being a problem for people that one Absolute would have to be trumped by the other – if it can be trumped, how can it be Absolute, they ask.

 

Secondly, after doing a bit more research, I find that in several places in the Hero System Steve Long comes right out and says that having Absolutes is a bad idea. I suppose my choice of that word for these abilities must have seemed disrespectful, when that was not my intent.

 

So I have decide to not only rename the quality I am trying to achieve, but to re-present it, in a hopefully better way. Let me (re)state my intention and goals, starting with what I will NOT be doing:

 

I will NOT be implementing this new add-on system willy-nilly, or incautiously. I will NOT be trying to run before I can crawl. I DO realize that I have a lot of learning on how to use the existing system before going full-bore on this add-on idea, and I likewise realize that in the course this I may find out that what I am learning in this system may require some changes or redesigns of the add-on system.

 

As evidence of my commitment to learning the system, let me confess that I just spent around $500 picking up 2 Hero System 5th Ed Revised Hardbound Core Rulebooks, 2 Hero System Resource Kits, The entire Ultimate Series (I think) including the Ultimate Brick, Metamorph, Speedster, Martial Artist, Energy Projector, Mnetalist, Mystic, Skill,and Vehicle; also, the Character Creation Handbook, Combat Handbook, Until SuperPowers Database I and II, Equipment Guidebook, and for flavor Demon: Servants of Darkness, Reality Storm: When Worlds Collide, and Teen Champions. Oh, and some Hero Dice for good measure.

 

Did I leave anything out that I should add? (Don’t so much need content sourcebooks like Freedom City or whatnot, doing our own worlds.)

 

What I now have in over 12 inches of books I need to read, and read them I shall. For, you see, it is my belief that of all the options including M&M, Silver Age Sentinels, MEGS/Blood of Heroes, MURPG, Wild Talents, and Aberrant (to name a few), the Hero System stands out as seeming to be the best system for superhero gaming. It is the Ultimate Gamer’s Toolkit in two equally important ways.

 

Firstly, it contains countless mechanics to build the superhero you want. But secondly, and (in my opinion) more importantly, it is fully extensible in that if you come up with an idea that isn’t covered you can add mechanics easily to integrate your new idea into the system.

 

Because that’s the thing about toolkits – different jobs, and indeed different craftsmen, will require somewhat different tools in their kits. The Hero System seems to do an amazing jobs at provide a vast array of tools for use – but no written system can answer everyone’s needs, some is bound to come up with something that for whatever reason is not covered by the existing system.

 

That’s where my add-on comes in.

 

Let me try to state as clearly as I can, the goals I am trying to accomplish with this add-on.

 

The Hero System is built on the idea that Character Points, in general, buy a quantity of ability. The best example is Teleportation: 2 CP for every 1” range of Teleportation. In Hero as existing, if you want more range, you spend more CP.

 

However, if one wants to design a character that can teleport anywhere *regardless* of range, what is one to do? Let me be clear, the intention is to build a character to whom range is not relevant when he teleports.

 

There are only a few options in the existing system, and none of them accomplish my goals:

 

One could tell the player that Teleportation can be bought with increased range, or even MegaScale, but that it is simply not possible for the player to make a character with a teleportation power that ignores range. This obviously doesn’t accomplish my goal of making it possible.

 

One could perhaps “lock in” what range would be needed to do the most long distance teleport imagined, and then tell the player that should he buy that much teleportation, he could expect to go anywhere. The problem with this is that if the game world changes, or the GM changes, or the character is brought into another game, all bets are off. Another issue with this approach is that to me its klunky, a kludge – fixing the universe so that the character gets *effectively* unlimited teleport instead of simply giving that ability to the character in the first place.

 

No, if a player wants to build a character that can teleport anywhere *regardless* of range, I want to have a tool in my toolkit to give him exactly that, at the right price. And that tool simply doesn’t exist in the Hero system as far as I can see.

 

And let’s not get led astray by the above example – it’s not just about the player that wants unlimited range on his teleport, but the player that wants his sword to ignore all defenses, or the player who wants to be able to take a probability and make it a certainty, or a player who wants to have an invulnerability that no attack can breach, however high in dice. It’s about power that operates at a high level, that bypasses any power or restrictions at a lower level.

 

This brings us to a core fact, not just about Hero system, but well-designed RPGs in general. The goal of this system cannot be to make unbeatable powers. For every amazing power, there is an equally amazing counter-power. Let me be crystal clear about this: I am NOT trying to allow powers to be created that are Absolute in the fullest sense, and unstoppable, unbeatable, unlimited, etc. The very nature of powers in conflict means that eventually you will have two supposedly Absolute powers in conflict in such a way that only one can triumph, which immediately call into question just how Absolute the power that lose was.

 

No, that is NOT the goal here. What IS the goal, is to create a higher order of powers, powers that trump lower-order ones, powers that can have aspects that are not limited to a certain range of values, powers that can ignore or trump certain mechanics.

 

So if the brick hero Granite has a higher order of Invulnerability, nothing of the standard order of powers and abilities is going to hurt him. If the blaster Pulsar has a higher order of Energy Projection, he may be able to ignore all defenses and force fields – at least until he runs into a villain with a higher order defensive ability.

 

I tried calling abilities with these higher order aspects Absolute Abilities, and what a problem that seemed to cause. But I need *some* name that indicates the ultimate nature of these abilities and powers. For round two, I am using the concept of Perfection. I am not wedded to that term, but it to date is the best I can come up with. It evidences a superlative nature, but doesn’t seem to guarantee results the way “Absolute” did – after all, you can execute a Perfect dodge and still get hit if the attack was one that NO dodge no matter how perfect could avoid. I hope that the concept of Perfection succeeds in naming the higher order nature while not causing readers cognitive dissonance in their expectations. Perfections – that is, powers and abilities with one or more Perfect Aspect – are amazing and trump most difficulties, EXCEPT when even Perfection is not enough or when facing an opposing Perfection. So without further ado, here’s the add-on, rewritten and reimagined:

 

Perfection and Perfect Aspects. A higher order of power in the Hero System.

 

Homage paid to the Primal Order, which is a source of deep inspiration for ultimate abilities.

 

Note – there are ways to accomplish many of the same effects as Perfection though Advantages. Where the use of an Advantage is cheaper and accomplishes the same result, we assume that people will forego the use of Perfection. Perfection will be used to accomplish effects that are either too expensive or impossible under the current system.

 

A Perfection is a power or ability with one or more Perfect Aspects. While some of the following may overlap, and many of the examples given vary widely in cost, Perfect Aspects include:

 

1.Perfect Choice: You may choose any value for one of the abilities aspects at any time, including zero, infinity, or anywhere in between.

 

This is very straightforward, it simply means that a single value such as range, damage, weight, etc, can be instead of what it was, any value the player wishes at any moment.

 

 

2.Perfect Action: You may choose a scope under which the ability would normally have limited or no effect, in which it now has full effect

 

This can range from a teleport that can take you to places it normally couldn’t, like other universes or “where the kidnapped girl is being held” or “any mirror”, to an attack that can’t have its damage reduced, to an action like a to hit roll which now cannot fail, to an attack that can affect any entities, even desolid ones. These actions and aspects can still be potentially limited by other directly conflicting Perfections.

 

 

3.Perfect Preservation: You may choose an aspect of the character, and a scope that could affect that aspect. That scope can have no effect on that aspect.

 

This can include a wide range of protections and defenses, such as True Invulnerability vs Fire, or protection from being mentally manipulated, or cannot die (but can possibly take damage).

 

 

4.Perfect Application: You may choose to have an effect occur upon a given trigger, which normally would not be possible.

 

A Catch-all for something that is not covered by the first 3 Perfections and something the system doesn’t cover either. For example, a power that triggers every Sunday, even if the character is dead and gone.

 

The above four kinds of Perfect Aspects are not necessarily exhaustive nor mutually incompatible. There may be overlap amongst them. Ultimately, as far as Character Point pricing, it does not strictly matter what categories of Perfect Aspect are partaken of, but how wide the scope of the Aspect is. The process for calculating the character point cost follows. Please note that I am especially interested in discussing improvements to the costing process for these abilities.

 

Perfections are either applied and linked to an existing ability (which gains one or more Aspects of Perfection) or grant new stand-alone abilities. In either case, the cost is the same: 50 base points, plus an Advantage of up to +1½ per Perfect Aspect desired, minimum one. Each aspect must be well-defined by the player, as must be the base effect if not linked to an existing ability or power. The level of each Advantage(s) applied is completely up to the GM based on the GM’s judgment on how extreme and powerful and wide-ranging the aspect being asked for is.

 

Again, the process is simple: The player defines any and all Perfect Aspects, not only by naming them, but by explicitly describing in what ways they trump or change things. Then the GM assigns each Perfect Aspect an Advantage rating, up to + 1½ (or in some cases even more), based on how much each Aspect asks for.

 

Limitations can also apply to Perfections if the scope is extremely narrow or only available at certain times or in certain conditions.

 

Here are some potential guidelines. Throughout these guidelines I posit what a GM might judge something to be worth, but obviously each GM is free and encouraged to deviate from the below judgments in any way they wish:

 

 

• A player wants a super-tough Brick. He asks for Perfect Choice on the value of damage he takes – allowing him to reduce any incoming damage to zero. He further limits the Perfection by saying that it is only available to him when he is in direct sunlight.
  

The GM may potentially rate the scope and nature of this Perfect Aspect at +1. The Only In Direct Sunlight limitation may be a -½. Therefore the total cost is 50 base points starting cost multiplied by (1+1) = 100, divided by (1+½) = 67 points.

 

 

• Or, maybe the Brick chooses a different version of the power. Maybe he asks for a Perfection that prevents all physically harmful result (to the character) from having effect. He still limits the Perfection by saying that it is only available to him when he is in direct sunlight.
  

The GM may potentially rate the scope and nature of this Perfect Aspect at +1½ . The Only In Direct Sunlight limitation may be a -½. Therefore the total cost is 50 base points starting cost multiplied by (1+1½) = 125, divided by (1+½) = 83 points.

 

 

• Finally, someone who wanted to make a character who couldn’t be affected by any affects at all without the permission of the character might ask for the following Perfection: the ability to negate all adversarial effects of any kind, including physical, mental, supernatural, etc. He still chooses the limitation of it only being available when he is in direct sunlight.
  

The GM may potentially rate the scope and nature of this Perfect Aspect at +2 . The Only In Direct Sunlight limitation may be a -½. Therefore the total cost is 50 base points starting cost multiplied by (1+2) = 150, divided by (1+½) = 100 points.

 

 

• To go back to the teleporter example, let’s say that the teleporter in question decides that he will buy his own range, but he does not want any barriers such as a hardened Force Field to stop him. He may define the Perfection thusly: All in-game effects that would interfere with the teleporter arriving at his destination are prevented from so effecting the teleporter’s power.
  

The GM may potentially rate the scope and nature of this Perfect Aspect at +½. Therefore the total cost is 50 base points starting cost multiplied by (1+½) = 75 points.

 

Note that this Perfection does NOT grant the ability to teleport – one must still purchase the teleport power, paying for whatever effects (such as range) that one wishes to.

 

 

• To take the teleporter to the extreme, what if he wants Perfect Range *and* Perfect Penetration? Well, first as usual the players has to define the explicit nature of the Perfect Aspects: The first Perfect Aspect is the same as above, namely that “all in-game effects that would interfere with the teleporter arriving at his destination are prevented from so effecting the teleporter’s power.” The second Perfect Aspect is even more radical: that the character can use his Teleport to go anywhere conceivable that is real. The player may explicitly define the second Aspect as “the character can teleport to any location anywhere in any place that he can imagine or conceive that exists, without limit”
  

It should be noted that the second Perfect Aspect goes far beyond simply permitted unlimited range. It permits the character to teleport to a destination in other universes, and to a destination as vaguely defined as “where the kidnappers stashed the kidnappee” or “the second nearest pub serving Rolling Rock Lite” or even “where Lord Voldemort is”. Of course, if there is no kidnappee, if Rolling Rock lite does not exist, or Lord Voldemort is dead, the teleport may simply fail. Nevertheless, this is a very powerful teleport ability.

 

The GM of course, prices it accordingly: The first Perfect Aspect is still rated as a +½, but the second perhaps as a +2!! The total cost of the Perfection would therefore be 50 x (1 +½ +2) = 50x3½ = 175. A very expensive power, but a very powerful one.

 

 

• An energy blaster might want a different Perfection, defined thusly: All effects that would reduce or eliminate the amount of damage taken by the target by the EB are prevented.
  

The GM might rate that at +1, therefore 50x(1+1) = 100 character points for a Perfect Energy Blast that cannot be diminished by defenses or abilities.

 

Again, I want to strongly caution that ALL the point totals above are speculative. After deeply learning the Hero System I may come to understand that 50 base points for a perfection is too little (or too much), or that the Advantages need raising (or lowering.)

 

Now, on to potential conflict amongst Perfections:

 

In some circumstances you may have two different Perfections potentially having interplay between each other. The correct response is to analyze the interplay for any true conflict. If any is found, there are two options: either the more defensive, protective, or less altering Perfection takes precedence, or both Perfections are ignored for this exchange for the scope of the conflicting domains only. The GM should choose one of the methods and inform the players when first employing this system.

 

Another potential option which I will mention, but not attempt to analyze or explore, is the idea of multiple orders of magnitude of Perfections. For example, while it is conceivable that a person with a sword of Perfect Damage might be at a standstill with a person with a Force Field of Perfect Resistance, if the swordsman’s sword was actually a second order Perfection, instead of just a first order Perfection, perhaps the sword would ignore the first order Perfection Force Field entirely. Food for thought. Personally, I would probably keep it simpler, only have one order of Perfection – you either have it or you don’t.

 

I was end with a few points which if read, listened to, and employed, can save a TREMENDOUS amount of grief and energy. Herein are also some responses to the posts made since I last posted:

 

 

• I believe that the Hero System is the ultimate super RPG, and as such, will be using it as a basis for all the super RPG games I run or play in. It is however not perfect for all uses by all gamers as is, which is why everyone comes up with House Rules or Add-ons. So please do not present me with the false dichotomy of either using the system as is or using a different system. I choose the THIRD option, using *this* system with some custom modifications.

 

• 
   
  
• The goal for this add-on is permitting the players to have abilities that trump the mechanics of other standard order abilities. Please do not waste either of our times by trying to argue that such a goal is wrong (for that is a matter of taste and opinion) or that no one wants such an add-on (because *I* do.)

 

• 
   
  
• I hope that by dropping the use of the term “Absolute” people will no longer be hung up on the fact that these abilities are not guaranteed to work absolutely. It was never my intention to create abilities that were truly Absolute, just ones that would rarely if ever be impeded – as well as ones that go far beyond the limits of the current system.

 

• 
   
  
• This add-on system has a certain complexity to it, that’s because it’s trying to implement a universal solution. I am open to less complex ways of doing this, but any system that would replace the one I present here would have to accomplish the same goals.

 

• 
   
  
• Again, the point costs here are NOT final, and may be tweaked as I learn more about the economy and value of character points in this game.

 

• 
   
  
• If the term “Perfect Ability” causes cognitive problems for anyone, then please suggest a different term. I can cut and paste with the best of them.

 

• 
   
  
• If having these kinds of higher order power and mechanic trumping abilities in a supers game does not appeal to you, then do not use it. Please refrain from trying to convince me that it should not appeal to me.

 

• 
   
  
• The main challenge to making this system not be broken is to make it expensive enough to make people think twice about buying into a Perfection while not making it so expensive that it makes no sense for players to explore these options. Put another way, a middle ground needs to be found between, for example, making Perfect invulnerability so cheap that it makes no sense to buy PD, ED, or other normal defense or so expensive that few would consider buying the Perfection. The point-of-purchase where buying a Perfection should make sense ideally is where you would have to invest a ton of points into a set of character qualities – such as teleporting across the universe. Know that I am aware of this delicate balance, and that my goal is to find that spot where the cost of the perfection is an investment and commitment to a central truth of one’s character, without the character point cost being egregious to the point that it prevents one from continuing to have multiple sides and areas of effectiveness.

 

• 
   
  
• At the end of the day, it is up to the player to explicitly define his Perfect Aspects, and it is up to the GM to assist him in so doing accurately, as well as to approve and cost out such abilities. If the player envisions his character having a certain ability, but completely misdefines it, that it the player’s mistake and as such, he will get an ability that does not work as he imagined. Of course, a good GM will sit down with him and possibly help him redefine (and re-price) the mistaken Perfect Aspect.

 

• 
   
  
• Double Perfection (and triple, etc) may or may not exist depending on the GM. As I mentioned above, I will probably employ the add-on with one level of Perfections only, and when there is actual direct conflict, the more defensive or static ability will win. Therefore, much of the time, a defensive Perfection will trump an offensive one, requiring the user of the offensive Perfection to get creative.

 

• 
   
  
• Hugh Neilson mentioned I should call these abilities Ultras – in fact, that was one of my first thoughts. However, aren’t multipower slots called ultras? So I narrowed in on calling them Perfections and Perfect Aspects. By the way, Hugh, one of your responses was I thought well thought out, with a lot of meat. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Rather than reply to it in detail, to start with, I am going to try to “relaunch” the idea with the stuff above, which may not solve all the past issues, but may solve a bunch of them.

 

• 
   
  
• There have been many posts wanting me to go into more detail about why I find the FH system for handling Absolutes unpalatable. Maybe that is a moot point now that I have done away with absolutes, or maybe not. In any case, I will try to address that on another day, when I can devote a multihour block of time and energy to try to answer those questions.

 

• 
   
  
• Sean Waters suggested limiting these abilities to one per character. I think there obviously needs to be some limiting factor – I wonder if the point cost itself should be sufficient, but I guess another issue is games built on different costs. I will have to think more on this.

 

• 
   
  
• Chris Goodwin’s concept of Scale is very interesting. Maybe these abilities are cheap at a lower scale, but these lower scale abilities are ignored by effects and supers of a higher Scale. However, while we may be able to cost out low scale (mundane?) invulnerability for cheap, and high scale (cosmic?) invulnerability expensively, how do we cost out for example the unlimited range of a teleport, which is not a conflicting attribute? Or maybe the scale of that attribute is related to the scale of the game setting? IE, a game that takes place only of the earth would be super-scale unlimited teleport, which would have to be upgraded to cosmic-scale unlimited teleport in the game world changed to a cosmic game? This could be a free upgrade granted by the GM on account of the world change? Just thinking out loud here, no actual proposals, just… interesting point, Chris.

 

• 
   
  
• Whether one hero in comic history trumped another hero in comic history I am not sure brings anything to the table. I do not think for me it’s about telling stories that have already been told, but about if I can tell new stories that I would like to.

 

• 
   
  
• Sean Waters also posted: “You either have to give them a fixed price, which means they only really balance for one 'point total' of campaign OR you scale the price to the campaign which is fine, but as the campaign gets more expensive either the absolute gets left behind or you have to amend the price, which is messy.” I think that he makes a very good point, and I am very grateful for this constructive criticism – I think that this may point back at Chris’ idea of scalars. I will reply directly to that well thought out post at my next herogames forum sitting.

 

• 
   
  
• As far as using Hero System terms in my language – I need tutoring, please feel free to let me know how best to say the same thing that I am saying know, but using the right Hero System vocabulary.
  

Thanks guys. Know that especially now, with my large buy-in to the Hero System I don’t think I am going anywhere, I just don’t often have many hours for posting.

[Trebuchet]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

A much better formula and presentation than your original idea, although I still think it's a solution to a non-existent problem. But I'm glad we didn't scare you off.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

erg. It sounds like you want to take the idea of RIFTS damage scaling and apply it system wide in Hero.

 

Damage - Megadamage - Gigadamage - Petadamage ... and so on.

 

'Tis an interesting thought; I've never thought the idea has any merit in any way, has utterly ruined every game I have ever played in that used the concept, and generally just leads to a game ruining arms race.

 

But let's look at the idea. Normal Ability and Perfect Ability.

Normal Ability is everything in the system as it stands.

Perfect Ability can ignore a Normal Ability when there's a resolution that must be resolved (attack/defense; hiding/finding; etc). But when two Perfect Abilities meet, they interact 'normally' as defined by their Normal Ability interaction.

 

going to start with that most simple of concepts: I hit you with something.

Energy Blast has X Dice of Damage that is dealt to the Target, who has X Points of Defense to mitigate that damage.

12D6 Energy Blast does 11 Body and 54 Stun;

Defender has 30 Points of Physical Defense to defend himself.

 

But we need an Energy Blast that ignore that Physical Defense completely, not overwhelms it with more dice, but just ignores it. Using the system as is we can take No Normal Defense (NND) [or AVLD] for a +1 Advantage, and Does Body for another +1 Advantage. So, at the very basic level, an Energy Blast that ignores the targets defense is a minimum of 3x as expensive as a normal Energy Blast (Base Points * (1+1+1) per the Advantages Formula).

 

So, our Perfect Energy Blast (at the moment) currently costs (assuming 10D6, a nice number of 50 Active Points) 150 Character Points. But it still must have a Defense (per NND Rules). But that's a kind of all-or-nothing. If you have the Defense the Perfect Energy Blast is completely negated. Which, quite possibly, is OK. If you want a different kind of interact I would move to Attacks Versus Limited Defense (AVLD) which allows us to simply switch what the Defense is; interaction works as normal.

 

In both cases we'll state the Defense is "Perfect Defenses" to match the Perfect Energy Blast model. Now, naturally, we need to model a "Perfect Defense" - and I don't recommend simply Special Effect, it has to be a Mechanic. If we use the idea it should be similar to how we got the Perfect EB, a +2 Advantage on the Defenses creates a Perfect Defense.

 

So, at the very minimum a Perfect Power version should be at least a +2 Advantage.

 

But, of course, we don't want to just use the NND/DoesBODY or AVLD/DoesBody model, because those may also have other uses. We're going to just call this "Perfect Advantage" for now.

 

Applying this idea to Movement we'll compare it to Mega Scale, at +2 a Mega Scaled Inch is 10 Million Kilometers. Pretty far, but not far enough. If someone pats for a +3 1/2 Mega Scale to travel 1 Light Year for every Inch of Movement they've purchased then the guy who bought Perfect Advantaged Movement to get anywhere at +2 got away cheaply.

 

So we're under priced for Movement.

 

And, Mega Scale can be applied to many different aspects (Range Of Senses, Ranges of Powers, Area Of Effect, and anything measured in Inches). So we're really underpricing Perfect Advantage for everything but a simply Attack.

 

Raise it too high (say +5 for Perfect Advantage to go anywhere, see anything, affect any area) then the Attacks are way overpriced (after all a +2 Advantage can be created to bypass or ignore defenses already in the system).

 

If we attach a Flat Base Cost we run into that issue of Scaling; best just avoid that.

 

By using an Advantage on the Base Normal Ability we can more easily just call it a Perfect Ability version.

My Perfect Energy Blast will ignore any defenses, but interact normally (subtract my Damage from your Defenses) with a Perfect Force Field.

 

This easily solves the idea of "Order Of Magnitude Better" Abilities without *just* buying more Effect.

 

Nominally, however, in a Point Based System, *just* buying more Effect is exactly what you do. Want to go anywhere? Buy enough Inches/MegaInches to go anywhere. Want to hurt anyone? Buy enough dice of damage that no one else has enough Defense to stop it. Obviously you find that choice distasteful.

 

Personally, I would separate it a bit.

A Perfect Attack or Defense is a +3 Advantage. A Perfect Non-Attack is a +5 Advantage. See how that works and tweak.

[Trebuchet]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

I agree, GA. It would be easier to just predesignate what is "perfect" (200 PD 3x Hardened for defenses; 30 billion light-years for Teleport across the universe; 100d6 AP X4 EB for damage; etc.) within the system and proceed from there.

 

I think a better term for this than Perfect would be Trump Power: It Trumps anything but another Trump.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Snipping to illustrate the issue:

 

The Hero System is built on the idea that Character Points, in general, buy a quantity of ability. The best example is Teleportation: 2 CP for every 1” range of Teleportation. In Hero as existing, if you want more range, you spend more CP.

 

However, if one wants to design a character that can teleport anywhere *regardless* of range, what is one to do? Let me be clear, the intention is to build a character to whom range is not relevant when he teleports.

 

There are only a few options in the existing system, and none of them accomplish my goals:

 

One could tell the player that Teleportation can be bought with increased range, or even MegaScale, but that it is simply not possible for the player to make a character with a teleportation power that ignores range. This obviously doesn’t accomplish my goal of making it possible.

 

One could perhaps “lock in” what range would be needed to do the most long distance teleport imagined, and then tell the player that should he buy that much teleportation, he could expect to go anywhere. The problem with this is that if the game world changes, or the GM changes, or the character is brought into another game, all bets are off. Another issue with this approach is that to me its klunky, a kludge – fixing the universe so that the character gets *effectively* unlimited teleport instead of simply giving that ability to the character in the first place.

 

No, if a player wants to build a character that can teleport anywhere *regardless* of range, I want to have a tool in my toolkit to give him exactly that, at the right price. And that tool simply doesn’t exist in the Hero system as far as I can see.

 

I don't believe that tool CAN exist. Illustration to follow. This example is as good as any other to illustrate the issue.

 

 

To go back to the teleporter example,

 

To take the teleporter to the extreme, what if he wants Perfect Range *and* Perfect Penetration? Well, first as usual the players has to define the explicit nature of the Perfect Aspects: The first Perfect Aspect is the same as above, namely that “all in-game effects that would interfere with the teleporter arriving at his destination are prevented from so effecting the teleporter’s power.” The second Perfect Aspect is even more radical: that the character can use his Teleport to go anywhere conceivable that is real. The player may explicitly define the second Aspect as “the character can teleport to any location anywhere in any place that he can imagine or conceive that exists, without limit”

 

It should be noted that the second Perfect Aspect goes far beyond simply permitted unlimited range. It permits the character to teleport to a destination in other universes, and to a destination as vaguely defined as “where the kidnappers stashed the kidnappee” or “the second nearest pub serving Rolling Rock Lite” or even “where Lord Voldemort is”. Of course, if there is no kidnappee, if Rolling Rock lite does not exist, or Lord Voldemort is dead, the teleport may simply fail. Nevertheless, this is a very powerful teleport ability.

 

The GM of course, prices it accordingly: The first Perfect Aspect is still rated as a +½, but the second perhaps as a +2!! The total cost of the Perfection would therefore be 50 x (1 +½ +2) = 50x3½ = 175. A very expensive power, but a very powerful one.

 

Let's remove "barrier penetration" and focus on "anywhere he wants". For 150 points (50 x 3), the character obtains unlimited teleportation distance. He also obtains extra-dimensional movement and a host of detection abilities, since he can determine where Lord Voldemort, the kidnappers and/or his favorite brew are, but let's ignore all these extras for now. Let's look only at his unlimited range teleport.

 

Another character in the game purchases 80" Teleport for 160 points. He can teleport 80", and it requires his full phase and spending 16 Endurance. How much must the Perfect Teleporter pay in END, and how long his Teleport takes has not been defined - what are the rules in this regard, Synder?

 

Regardless, I as a GM would have a tough time telling the guy whose character has spend 160 points - 10 more than our perfect teleporter - that the perfect teleporter can:

 

- teleport further in combat

- teleport anywhere in the world

- teleport off world

- teleport to and from other dimensions

- teleport blind with no fear of failure or harm

- teleport to a place whose location, or even existence, is not known to him

 

All for 10 points LESS than the above character spent for an ability which, by comparison, is pathetic in its scope and ability.

 

Similarly, the character who spends over 150 points for his attack, more than 150 points for his defenses - any character who spends more for a non-perfect power - is screwed over by the ability to purchase a "perfect" ability for 150 points or less.

 

I believe that the Hero System is the ultimate super RPG' date=' and as such, will be using it as a basis for all the super RPG games I run or play in. It is however not perfect for all uses by all gamers as is, which is why everyone comes up with House Rules or Add-ons. So please do not present me with the false dichotomy of either using the system as is or using a different system. I choose the THIRD option, using *this* system with some custom modifications.[/quote']

 

But this is not a "custom modification". It allows for vastly more powerful abilities to be purchased for an equal or far lesser cost than abilities purchased using the conventional system and, as such, effectively reduces those who choose not to use this add-on to bystander status.

 

The goal for this add-on is permitting the players to have abilities that trump the mechanics of other standard order abilities. Please do not waste either of our times by trying to argue that such a goal is wrong (for that is a matter of taste and opinion) or that no one wants such an add-on (because *I* do.)

 

Well and good. However, this mechanic's ability to trump all other mechanics, by its very nature, renders those mechanics at worst completely irrelevant and at best pale imitations of what this mechanic can accomplish. Why should anyone spend 150 points on defenses, for example, if they can spend 150 points - OR LESS - to be completely immune to any effect which could do them any harm?

 

This add-on system has a certain complexity to it' date=' that’s because it’s trying to implement a universal solution. I am open to less complex ways of doing this, but any system that would replace the one I present here would have to accomplish the same goals.[/quote']

 

Buy enough of the ability in question to be functionally perfect given campaign norms. Add 10 points (or some equally arbitrary amount) to make it "perfect". That's as or more effective.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Separated for emphasis.

 

OK, OK, I forgot to add it in when I was responding.

 

One could perhaps “lock in” what range would be needed to do the most long distance teleport imagined' date=' and then tell the player that should he buy that much teleportation, he could expect to go anywhere. [b']The problem with this is that if the game world changes, or the GM changes, or the character is brought into another game, all bets are off. [/b] Another issue with this approach is that to me its klunky, a kludge – fixing the universe so that the character gets *effectively* unlimited teleport instead of simply giving that ability to the character in the first place.

 

Emphasis added. The problem with the above is that, if the game world changes or the GM changes or the character is brought into another game, with your "Perfect Ability" house rule, all bets are still off. In fact, it's worse.

 

I can look at a character with whatever amount of teleportation, for example, and say "yes, that is adequate in my universe to be a functional absolute" or "no, here is what you need to do to teleport anywhere". However, when I see "150 Perfect Teleport" followed by paragraphs of description of what this 150 points allows the character to accomplish, I will look at that and say "What an interesting game system. We are playing Hero. If you wish to join our game, please write your character up in Hero."

 

Because, whatever you call it, and however you price it, your add-on house rule is not Hero. It is your add-on house rule to a Hero game. And house rules do not transfer between games - that is their nature.

[Trebuchet]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Because' date=' whatever you call it, and however you price it, your add-on house rule is not Hero. It is your add-on house rule to a Hero game. And house rules do not transfer between games - that is their nature.[/quote']And that's it in a nutshell. This is nothing more - or less - than a house rule; one which distorts the core rules almost beyond recognition. I personally wouldn't play in any game where these rules were in use.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

One could perhaps “lock in” what range would be needed to do the most long distance teleport imagined' date=' and then tell the player that should he buy that much teleportation, he could expect to go anywhere. The problem with this is that if the game world changes, or the GM changes, or the character is brought into another game, all bets are off. Another issue with this approach is that to me its klunky, a kludge – fixing the universe so that the character gets *effectively* unlimited teleport instead of simply giving that ability to the character in the first place.[/quote']

 

Just to elaborate further on Hugh's sentiments - The Hero System Toolkit is ultimately designed to create A Game, not just Characters.

 

It could even be stated that no two Hero System Games are even MEANT to be able to cross pollinate like that.

 

You're not SUPPOSED to bring a Character from Game A into Game B if the two Games are built on radically different (if Mechanically similar) premises.

 

I have a Magic Using Superhero, but if I walk into a game where the GM has stated "there is no such thing as magic" it doesn't matter WHAT mechanics I used, I don't even have a Special Effect that can be ported over.

 

Or, if I have a Psionic Star Hero Character from a stock Terran Empire Campaign and tried to walk into a Hard Science Star Hero campaign I again have a Mechanically Sound but completely unplayable Character.

 

When moving from Hero Game to Hero Game you have to (HAVE TO) look at the underlying Special Effect and Premise of the Character for compatibility.

 

This is ultimately an SFX driven system. You have to Reason From Special Effects, long before you ever decide what Mechanic to use you must know what your Power/Ability must do in Non-Mechanical Terms.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

*skims the thread* I think you should go back to playing Amber diceless.

[Markdoc]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Now, guys, play nice. I agree from the posts that it's clear that Sindyr is new to the system and much of what's being discussed here has been discussed at length before (Note to Sindyr - that explains the responses to your first post: you walked into the middle of a discussion that's been going on for years).

 

OTOH, he is throwing up some new ideas, which is never a bad thing. Given that most of the Hero boards would hate the idea of absolutes (or, if you prefer RIFTS/Exalted-like "power levels") being added, with the energy of a thousand exploding suns, the chances of these becoming "official" rules is right up there with Hero moving entirely over to d20 rules. But there are people who might be interested in an internally-consistent set of house rules.

 

Based on what Sindyr has written so far, (and also Chris's comments) I think the key to making something like this workable is to understand the core mechanic at the heart of Hero system: special effects. The idea is to visualise - in as much detail as possible - what you want the power to be, and then build it with the mechanisms available.

 

Part of the problem here seems to be that some posters are treating "invulnerable" like a power. But it's not (at least as things stand, or as it has been defined so far): it's a special effect for defences.

 

Let's take two published "invulnerable" characters to show what I mean: Superman and Miracleman.

 

The former is "invulnerable" (not really: he can be hurt, he's just really hard to hurt) by nature of the fact that he's really tough against certain effects - he can be hurt by magic as easily as a normal human. And he's tough all the way through: it's not like he has a hard shell. If the Atom flew up his nose and started energy blasting the base of his brain it'd have no more effect than if he was doing it from outside.

Miracleman, OTOH has a nigh-impenetrable forcefield. It'll bounce all sorts of damage but if you teleport something past the forcefield, he goes squish.

 

Thus Big Blue's invulnerability is best simulated with lots of resistant PD/ED (not vs magic), plus huge CON and STUN totals. Miracleman's is best simulated with a personal forcewall. They are both "invulnerable" (special effect) but have different powers (mechanics) and - important point - react with other powers differently. An indirect attack that would kill Miracleman won't faze Superman. A attack that might Stun Superman, is unlikely to do any STUN at all to Miracleman. Both of them are vulnerable to mental attacks

 

If you throw that difference out the window and just say "Invulnerable subsumes all defences" then you have thrown the core of the entire system out the window. There's literally nothing left of the original game.

 

So..... how do you deal with that? Well as I have suggested there's two ways. What Sindyr has tried so far is to develop a metasystem to underlie the current mechanics. The results have been unbalanced because he's trying to add to the mechanics of the system while really talking about special effects. Invulnerability to all attacks should be very much more expensive than invulnerability to fire which should be more expensive than invulnerability to Negabeams. That's special-effect driven and pricing is always going to problematic.

 

It's going to require a different way of thinking about things. For example, you could price "absolute" as a +1 point adder. Every Superhero will want it, so their attacks will affect each other normally: it just means all heroes are godlike and they ignore the physical world for their absolute ability. You could price it at 100. Odds are the combat oriented types will all want it anyway: that just relegates combat to the absoluters (who can affect each other normally) and means they can ignore the mundane world and non-absolute superheroes, who will do their thing outside combat. If this sounds like handwaving, it is. But that's inevitable - the price depends on what sort of game you want to run.

 

cheers, Mark

[nexus]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Since its sort of on topic and something I wonder about when these discussion of Absolutes come up I wanted to toss something out. What about the Talents like Absolute Time Sense and Lightning Calculator that are built as Detects and other abilities that would normally require a roll but the assumption/invisible Advantage is that the player doesn't have to roll; they just work They are a form of absolute effect but I've hadn't heard many comments about them. They're small effects, not as "important' as attacks and defense but still a form of absolute or more correctly infallible ability barring GM discretion and the player isn't charged more for them than if the ability were purchased as a normal Detect, Skill Levels, etc.

 

I don't mean this to be support for or argument against what Sindyr is proposing. Honestly, I've only skimmed the thread.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Since its sort of on topic and something I wonder about when these discussion of Absolutes come up I wanted to toss something out. What about the Talents like Absolute Time Sense and Lightning Calculator that are built as Detects and other abilities that would normally require a roll but the assumption/invisible Advantage is that the player doesn't have to roll; they just work They are a form of absolute effect but I've hadn't heard many comments about them. They're small effects, not as "important' as attacks and defense but still a form of absolute or more correctly infallible ability barring GM discretion and the player isn't charged more for them than if the ability were purchased as a normal Detect, Skill Levels, etc.

 

I don't mean this to be support for or argument against what Sindyr is proposing. Honestly, I've only skimmed the thread.

 

I think Sindyr is proposing some "major impact" items, and is looking for pricing accordingly. At the same time, I find myself wondering whether he would also charge a character 75 points (50 + the minimum +1/2 advantage) for "knows the answer to every Fantasy literature trivia question", or whether he would charge, say, 100 for "knows all knowledge" and apply a very steep limitation (say, -2 "literature only" and another -2 for "fantasy genre only") to drop the cost back down for relatively minor effects.

 

I think we should let Sindyr have some time to read all the rule books and review his approach with a better understanding of the existing framework.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Another character in the game purchases 80" Teleport for 160 points. He can teleport 80"' date=' and it requires his full phase and spending 16 Endurance. How much must the Perfect Teleporter pay in END, and how long his Teleport takes has not been defined - what are the rules in this regard, Synder?[/quote']

 

Character C buys 5" of Teleport and 60 (!) levels of MegaScale, for 160 points. How far can he teleport?

 

(Seriously, how far can he teleport? I haven't figured it out. Let's see, 1 level of MegaScale is 1km... so 60 levels of MegaScale is... 10^59km? According to Google, 1 light-year is somewhere in the neighborhood of 10^13km. Making that much Teleport... 10^46 light-years.

 

(Nearby galaxies are ~10^7 light-years away.

 

(One thing to think about: with this much Teleport, you can't teleport in increments any smaller than 10^46 light-years.... unless you have memorized locations.

 

(How big is the universe?

 

The visible universe is thus a sphere with a diameter of about 28 billion parsecs (about 92 billion light-years).

 

(In other words, about 10^11 light-years.

 

(Source

 

(Whoa.)

[sindyr]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

OK, you guys are making me think and work hard here – you are serving up some good critiques, some constructive criticism, and most importantly, some interesting avenues for exploration.

 

 

And very on-the-nose point about Superman and Miracleman, Excellent point! Thanks!

 

 

I think until I have been coming at this problem backwards.

 

Instead of trying to define what the effect of the ability is, I think I need to work it just like Hero System itself does and approach it from a point of view of “what am I trying to accomplish mechanically” first and foremost. So I sat down and looked at all my posts, trying to figure out the common *mechanical* threads in what I wanted to accomplish that I felt the system didn’t permit. And it boild down to just 4 or 5 things:

 

 

• Some abilities have a hole in them, such as Resurrection or NND. I want a way to fill that hole at a cost.
  
• Some abilities have limited values, such as Range in Teleportation. I want a way to make that value unlimited.
  
• Some abilities are almost complete, but don’t offer guarantees, like Full Life Support. I want a way to take the effect to the fullest, regardless of future circumstances.
  
• Some abilities have chance involved. I want a way to eliminate chance and either make it certain or impossible.
  
• And finally, some abilities are used in conflict. I want a way to Trump people who haven’t bought the special level of Trumping.
  

 

It finally dawned on me that I do not need to make a universal system that does all of the above, because there are few enough things on the list that each can have its own tailor made solution, as appropriate.

 

This really solves a lot of issues. It allows the each fix/add-on to be much more focused on doing one thing precisely and well. I don’t right now have solutions for the first four, but Chris and Sean seem to have given me an idea for the solution to the fifth one, which I think is really the big one – the ability to trump someone’s (or some thing’s) abilities with yours in a conflict. Here is how I accomplish that:

 

The world has different scales, or “orders” to it. Most will have either two (Normal, Cosmic) or three (Normal, Mega, Cosmic). Every effect in the world is of one of these “orders”. (If "Mega" is too confusing, I can use "Super" or anything else)

 

 

For example, fire can be of any of these orders. A campfire’s heat may be Normal, while the Inferno in a warehouse could be so extreme as to warrant the use of the Mega level (for game worlds with three orders). Finally, the heart of a star could be considered Cosmic, as could the secret Black Fyre at the Heart of the Universe.

 

The point is, a higher order effect isn’t just one with more dice or advantages, it’s one of a fundamentally higher order, an entirely new thing.

 

Entities, such as characters or things, are considered of the same order of the highest order effect that they can produce. For example, a device that has a Mega order scanning ability is a Mega-order device. A character that has a Cosmic order level Force Field is a Cosmic character.

 

If an effect of a higher order occurs to an entity/thing of one order below it, all resistances and chances to avoid the effect are also ignored. Therefore if a Cosmic Energy Blast hits a Mega character, the Body and Stun of the EB is not at all diminished by ED or any other characteristic. If a Cosmic Mind Control hits a Mega character, the mega character cannot successfully attempt Breakouts.

 

If the effect of a higher order occurs to an entity/thing of two or more orders below it, all the above is true and the effects are *doubled* - whether that’s Body and Stun, or Mind Control dice, etc.

 

So for example, if a being with a Cosmic Energy Blast attacks a Hardened Door, not only does the EB ignore the Door’s DEF, the Body done is doubled. No, mundane objects don’t pose much impediments to Cosmic beings. On the other hand, if the Energy Blast was Mega instead of Cosmic, the DEF would still be ignored, but the Body wouldn’t be doubled. Obviously, if the door was of a higher order than the EB, it would ignore the EB completely. If the door and the EB were of the same order, than just treat as usual.

 

Another example, a Cosmic EB hits a Mega Character, the Mega Character’s PD/ED/other stuff is ignored. If a Cosmic EB hits a Normal Character, this PD/ED/other stuff is ignored and the ffects are doubled – double Body and Stun.

 

Now, the question is how to price this? I have a few ideas.

 

First of all, it may be a good idea to have an “entrance” fee. For example, a Powers/Talents like these:

 

Higher Order: Mega. 50 Character Points. This ability permits you to use the Power Modifier “Mega-order”, paying full price. This also makes you a *Mega* order character.

 

Higher Order: Cosmic. 100 Character Points. This ability permits you to use the Power Advantages of “Mega-Order” or “Cosmic-Order”, paying full price. This also makes you a *Cosmic* order character.

 

This sets the bar higher for entry into those orders. Note that while the above do provide entry into the respective Orders, with some defensive benefits, having Higher Order: Cosmic does not provide any benefit to your powers and abilities unless you buy for them the Power Modifier such as Cosmic Order Ability, described below:

 

Power Modifier - Mega Order Ability: This power is now a Mega-Order power, with all that entails.

 

Power Modifier - Cosmic Order Ability: This power is now a Cosmic-Order power, with all that entails.

 

The question about the above options is should these be Adders or Advantages? We could for example do Mega Order as a +15 CP Adder, or possibly as a +¼ or +½ Advantage, while Cosmic Order might be either a +30 Adder or +½ or +1 Advantage. What are your thoughts?

 

Apart from pricing concerns, there are a few potential uses here. You could use the three level system, Normal/Mega/Cosmic, keep everyone at the Normal level for a gritty street level campaign, use the Mega level for standard superhero stuff, and the Cosmic for truly epic stuff. Or you could start off your characters for free at the Mega level, giving each of them the Power Modifier Mega-Order on their abilities for free, perhaps giving them a break if they sell it down to Normal.

 

Or perhaps you just want two levels – Normal, and Cosmic for the really epic stuff. That’s fine.

 

Of course, another thing that you can do with three levels is more easily move character between games and campaigns. Let’s say that you are running a street level campaign with a player whose character is Sgt. Grit. And you want to transfer that character into a more “super” campaign. Giving him a few more CP is probably a good idea, but in addition you can bring him to the Mega-order, which will quite suddenly and effectively place him in a new league, significantly more effective than he was.

 

I will work on the solutions to the first four points later, but just wanted to post this new idea.

 

 

I do like the idea that a GM can using this system choose to make all starting characters and all their abilities Normal, Mega, or even Cosmic right off the bat, thereby saying "OK, everyone gets Mega level abilities for free - we won't be worrying about street fights with bar thugs", for example.

 

 

 

Actually, I am liking the term "mega" less - should I just call it "super" and have done with it?

 

 

A forum etiquette question: A what point should I/am I encouraged to stop adding to the old thread and make a new one? This is like revision three of the original idea and it’s drifted far from the absolutes we started with.

 

Thanks all.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Character C buys 5" of Teleport and 60 (!) levels of MegaScale' date=' for 160 points. How far can [i']he[/i] teleport?

 

(Seriously, how far can he teleport? I haven't figured it out. Let's see, 1 level of MegaScale is 1km... so 60 levels of MegaScale is... 10^59km? According to Google, 1 light-year is somewhere in the neighborhood of 10^13km. Making that much Teleport... 10^46 light-years.

 

(Nearby galaxies are ~10^7 light-years away.

 

(One thing to think about: with this much Teleport, you can't teleport in increments any smaller than 10^46 light-years.... unless you have memorized locations.

 

Or he makes his Megascale Scaleable. But he still must move in increments of 1 km.

 

(How big is the universe?

 

(In other words, about 10^11 light-years.

 

(Source

 

(Whoa.)

 

So assuming "the universe" is the maximum expected scope of our game, I would suggest that a character purchasing enough Teleport to go, say, 10^12 light years, scalable to 1 km/inch could add that to a Multipower of lower-scale Megascale teleports and a combat scale teleport and be capable of travelling anywhere meaningful to the campaign, using noncombat movement in most cases of large-scale transport.

 

That, to me, would be the reasonable cost of "I can teleport anywhere teleport can go" for that game. [it still does not deal with the "locations I don't know", "locations in other dimensions", "safe blind teleport", etc. issues - or the player saying "I can Teleport to any point in the space-time continuum, so I teleport to the accident that created Grond and push him out of the way - no more Grond to fight in our time", but it DOES get that "I can go anywhere teleport can take me" result.]

 

But in a game that spans multiple universes routinely, a higher cost should be imposed. For one that never leaves the planet, that cost is likely excessive. Call them Absolutes, Perfects or Cosmics, these terms are in comparison to the game world, and are not themselves absolute values.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

The world has different scales, or “orders” to it. Most will have either two (Normal, Cosmic) or three (Normal, Mega, Cosmic). Every effect in the world is of one of these “orders”. (If "Mega" is too confusing, I can use "Super" or anything else)

 

So for example, if a being with a Cosmic Energy Blast attacks a Hardened Door, not only does the EB ignore the Door’s DEF, the Body done is doubled. No, mundane objects don’t pose much impediments to Cosmic beings. On the other hand, if the Energy Blast was Mega instead of Cosmic, the DEF would still be ignored, but the Body wouldn’t be doubled. Obviously, if the door was of a higher order than the EB, it would ignore the EB completely. If the door and the EB were of the same order, than just treat as usual.

 

Cosmic defenses seem much less expensive. 1 point of Cosmic PD will allow me to ignore all "under-Cosmic" attacks, but 1d6 Cosmic EB won't punch through a Normal bank vault.

 

First of all, it may be a good idea to have an “entrance” fee. For example, a Powers/Talents like these:

 

Higher Order: Mega. 50 Character Points. This ability permits you to use the Power Modifier “Mega-order”, paying full price. This also makes you a *Mega* order character.

 

Higher Order: Cosmic. 100 Character Points. This ability permits you to use the Power Advantages of “Mega-Order” or “Cosmic-Order”, paying full price. This also makes you a *Cosmic* order character.

 

This sets the bar higher for entry into those orders. Note that while the above do provide entry into the respective Orders, with some defensive benefits, having Higher Order: Cosmic does not provide any benefit to your powers and abilities unless you buy for them the Power Modifier such as Cosmic Order Ability, described below:

 

Power Modifier - Mega Order Ability: This power is now a Mega-Order power, with all that entails.

 

Power Modifier - Cosmic Order Ability: This power is now a Cosmic-Order power, with all that entails.

 

The question about the above options is should these be Adders or Advantages? We could for example do Mega Order as a +15 CP Adder, or possibly as a +¼ or +½ Advantage, while Cosmic Order might be either a +30 Adder or +½ or +1 Advantage. What are your thoughts?

 

Apart from pricing concerns, there are a few potential uses here. You could use the three level system, Normal/Mega/Cosmic, keep everyone at the Normal level for a gritty street level campaign, use the Mega level for standard superhero stuff, and the Cosmic for truly epic stuff. Or you could start off your characters for free at the Mega level, giving each of them the Power Modifier Mega-Order on their abilities for free, perhaps giving them a break if they sell it down to Normal.

 

I suspect the actual result is that the three tiers cannot successfully interact. If I bring my Mega character into a Cosmic campaign, he can't affect any meaningful (ie Cosmic) opponents, and can't defend himself against their attacks. All he can hope to do is hide long enough to go home. That's a big difference from the comics I remember where those "ordinary" superheroes had a major impact on Cosmic events. More to the point, it seems to serve only to set the scale of the game and everyone in it - if there are Cosmic characters, then any character without Cosmic is pretty much helpless before them.

 

Of course' date=' another thing that you can do with three levels is more easily move character between games and campaigns. Let’s say that you are running a street level campaign with a player whose character is Sgt. Grit. And you want to transfer that character into a more “super” campaign. Giving him a few more CP is probably a good idea, but in addition you can bring him to the Mega-order, which will quite suddenly and effectively place him in a new league, significantly more effective than he was.[/quote']

 

Which seems to concur with my point, above. The possibility that Sgt. Grit can interact meaningfully with Mega characters is dismissed out of hand.

 

Advantage for Mega Power? How about +1.75? That's an Attack vs Limited defenses, reasonably common subset of normal defenses (Mega would be reasonably common in a campaign where Mega powers are permitted, I assume) that does BOD. This seems to set a reasonable benchmark. Maybe call it +2 in the interests of simplicity, and factoring in the fact it just makes you Mega.