New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Yeah' date=' I read what you wrote. I also read the sentence where you suggested the absolute "can't hit me" ability whether bought as combat luck, desolidfication or levels in DCV should interact with an "always hits" attack equivalently. That - to me - says pretty clearly that you're not interested in the mechanics, because the mechanics underlying those three approaches are totally different.[/quote']

 

It's not that I'm not interested in the mechanics.

 

When someone has a "can't hit me" ability, and someone else has an "always hits" ability, you have to know what happens. I suggested a way to mechanize the determination.

 

When you essentially state "The mechanics are not important, the special effect "absolute" is what's important" it seems to me like you are not really interested in mechanics. Isn't that clear?

 

Where did I state any such thing?

 

Right, although, it's important to note in source that absolute powers are almost never absolute: the Beyonder is immune to Johnny Storm's Fireblasts, but not to Dazzler's light blast (well, not immune to it all the time, maybe she just rolled a 3, the time she pasted him).

 

I can point to about three posts where I said just that.

 

See again, here, you say you want a mechanistic effect - but one which isn't tied to the underlying mechanics. Can you sense my confusion?

 

At the moment I can't sense your meaning.

 

Fortunately, I'm arguing no such thing. I'm pointing out that you seem to want an mechanic, which by your own description is divorced from the mechanics of the system: an attack whose cost is unrelated to all other atatcks, a defence which supercedes all other defences, an attack that doesn't use the attack rules, etc. You can no more create an integrated mechanic that isn't mechanically defined than you can create a logical solution to the various paradoxes of the absolute that logicians have discussed for the last 3000 years.

 

I'm not trying to create a "mechanic that isn't mechanically defined" . I'm trying to mechanically define it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Here's my big thesis on why absolute powers don't work well in Hero.

 

You either have to give them a fixed price, which means they only really balance for one 'point total' of campaign OR you scale the price to the campaign which is fiine, but as the campaign gets more expensive either the absolute gets left behinfd or you have to amend the price, which is messy.

 

That's it.

 

Mechanically absolutes are not a problem: pick an effect, assign a price. Bingo.

 

Getting and keeping the price right - nightmare.

 

We've kicked this particular ball round the yard so many times over the years, we're all probably pretty entrenched (to mix my metaphors horribly). Personally I doubt there are any real examples of absolutes in the source material that cannot be explained with a bigger point expenditure.

 

Setting the price is the problem. Too high, no one wants it, too low everyone wants it.

 

That is not to say that absolutes cannot work well in some games. They do. The ones that work best though are the absolutes there is a way around - their absoluteness is mitigated by the fact that you can circumvent it. Maybe you've got a helmet that stops all mental powers dead - but someone could still take the helmet off your head. Just being immune to mental powers is frustrating for anyone who spent points on them.

 

So, let's be logical about this. I've been concentrating on defences, but there are other absolutes.

 

Always hit

Always dodge

Always damage

Always succeed

Always wear the perfect tie

 

Always hit is relatively easy. Call it a +1 advantage then it scales to the power of the attack, and is almost certainly going to be more expensive than just buying levels.

 

Always dodge is more difficult - especially in a game with an 'always hit' power.

 

That's one of the biggest problems with absolutes - mutual exclusivity. There are ways around it from sindyr's process analysis, to decent game design (don't let mutually exclusive abilities loose in the same habitat) to rock/paper/scissors.

 

Anyway, I'm sure I had a point but it seems to have wandered off. Maybe it will come back of its own accord. If not it probably never was mine to begin with.

[Checkmate]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Well after looking it up, I've discovered Unweave Ritual will counter Utter Destruction of Bonds, so it is not an absolute.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Always hit is relatively easy. Call it a +1 advantage then it scales to the power of the attack' date=' and is almost certainly going to be more expensive than just buying levels.[/quote']

 

It should do Stun Only as per NND, unless you buy +1 Does BODY. It should have some kind of condition that prevents it from hitting.

[jtelson]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Well after looking it up' date=' I've discovered Unweave Ritual will counter Utter Destruction of Bonds, so it is not an absolute.[/quote']

 

No, it only counters rituals that have a duration.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

My view was that we have a new poster to the boards who has clearly put a lot of thought and effort into this area and we were less than encouraging' date=' which is unusual for the Hero boards. There are ways and means of disagreeing with people's POV, and I just got the impression that the tone was what might be expected in response to someone we know a lot better. Not having a pop at anyone I'm just passing on my opinion and trying to ensure that sindyr and others looking in keep on posting.[/quote']

 

I think if the OP had used, or amended to use, Hero System terms instead of the language that was used both the point and desired intentions may have become much more clear from the onset.

 

I do hope that Sindyr rejoins the conversation and provides some more clarity - or other feedback - to the discussion beyond berating us.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

..........

 

I do hope that Sindyr rejoins the conversation and provides some more clarity - or other feedback - to the discussion beyond berating us.

 

Amen to that, brother

[Markdoc]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Where did I state any such thing?

 

In post 89, this thread, where you write:

It occurred to me the other night. X Always Hits, vs. Y Can Never Be Hit. The easiest way and most fair way to handle it is that they cancel each other out, and you go back to OCV vs. DCV. Which also means that if X's Always Hits is bought as a massive bonus to OCV, and Y's Can Never Be Hit is bought as a massive bonus to DCV, neither of them gets their bonus, and it's X's straight OCV vs. Y's straight DCV. It would be similar if Y's Can Never Be Hit is bought as massive amounts of Combat Luck, or Desolidification, or however.

 

Here you explicitly suggest that different mechanics (desolid, combat luck -that is to say PD/ED - or CSLs) should all interact with a different power - an attack with many CSL - as though they were the same. Yet, they are totally different mechanically: the only thing they share in common is the special effect "Can't be hit". If you want powers to be defined by their special effects and the mechanics are irrelevant, how can you truly be seeking a mechanistic approach?

 

The suggestion of using forcewall to simulate invulnerability is an excellent one IMO, and works fine for very tough characters (indeed, I plan on using it, somewhat modified). But that's not an absolute - it's simply buying defences: defences which can be exceeded by larger attacks, or by NND or AVLD. That's a mechanistic approach, but it's also an example of exactly what you've stated you don't want: it's not absolute.

 

cheers, Mark

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

In post 89, this thread, where you write:

 

 

Here you explicitly suggest that different mechanics (desolid, combat luck -that is to say PD/ED - or CSLs) should all interact with a different power - an attack with many CSL - as though they were the same. Yet, they are totally different mechanically: the only thing they share in common is the special effect "Can't be hit". If you want powers to be defined by their special effects and the mechanics are irrelevant, how can you truly be seeking a mechanistic approach?

 

Right. I suggested it that way because I've been told several times that the way you buy absolutes is to buy "enough" of whatever it is. If you want to Always Hit, buy "enough" OCV so that even if you roll a 18 you hit the highest DCV the GM allows. If you want to Never Be Hit, buy "enough" DCV so that even if they roll a 3 at the highest OCV allowed, they still miss.

 

That's not my way -- that's someone else's.

 

And that doesn't change the fact that you have Always Hits attacking Can Never Be Hit, you still have to figure out what happens.

 

Edit: I'm on my way out the door, and I know I'm not articulating this well. I'll try to pin down what I'm thinking a lot better.

 

The suggestion of using forcewall to simulate invulnerability is an excellent one IMO, and works fine for very tough characters (indeed, I plan on using it, somewhat modified). But that's not an absolute - it's simply buying defences: defences which can be exceeded by larger attacks, or by NND or AVLD. That's a mechanistic approach, but it's also an example of exactly what you've stated you don't want: it's not absolute.

 

Okay. What I'd like is for there to be a Power: Invulnerability. You spend X points and you are Invulnerable. I'm not trying to design it here and now, so I'm not postulating how many points, what it allows you to be Invulnerable to, all of the other mechanical details needed. I'm also not yet postulating how this is GM permission only and how it should have a built-in weakness.

 

There. I'm asking for mechanics.

[Trebuchet]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Okay. What I'd like is for there to be a Power: Invulnerability. You spend X points and you are Invulnerable. I'm not trying to design it here and now, so I'm not postulating how many points, what it allows you to be Invulnerable to, all of the other mechanical details needed. I'm also not yet postulating how this is GM permission only and how it should have a built-in weakness.

 

There. I'm asking for mechanics.

I proposed just such a Power two years ago and linked it upthread. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I still feel it would be a good starting point and is worthy of playtesting.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

...

 

 

Okay. What I'd like is for there to be a Power: Invulnerability. You spend X points and you are Invulnerable. I'm not trying to design it here and now, so I'm not postulating how many points, what it allows you to be Invulnerable to, all of the other mechanical details needed. I'm also not yet postulating how this is GM permission only and how it should have a built-in weakness.

 

There. I'm asking for mechanics.

 

 

First you have to Define Invulnerability.

Even the source material (primarily comics which over time have probably shown every sfx possible) shows different levels of it. Superman's version has varied from being able to fly into the sun to just barely surviving being near a nuke blast. Even when you leave out the obvious loopholes (Kryptonite, red solar radiation, magic etc..) It is NOT an absolute.

It has a limit that can be expressed with in the current mechanics. That seems like a lot less work that creating a whole new class of mechanics that only deals with "absolute x" vs. "absolute y".

 

Regarding examples and the earlier discussion about them.

The only examples that should really matter to this discussion are source examples (works of fiction) not other games systems based on a particular work of fiction.

[jtelson]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Okay. What I'd like is for there to be a Power: Invulnerability. You spend X points and you are Invulnerable. I'm not trying to design it here and now, so I'm not postulating how many points, what it allows you to be Invulnerable to, all of the other mechanical details needed. I'm also not yet postulating how this is GM permission only and how it should have a built-in weakness.

 

There. I'm asking for mechanics.

 

GURPs Supers has the Super-Advantage Invulnerability. You're completely resistant to some attack forms. IIRC it's like 300pts for all kinetic damage (So PD) with an extra 60 points to get rid of the KB. (Yes I know it's an absolute ability in a game from the past 30 years but the V:tM ritual is just far more nifty).

 

My inclination would be to price it at 30% of total points for the campaign with an optional +1/4 advantage to also reduce all KB from affected attacks to 0. So... I guess if a generic point total needed to be set 105 points per damage type.

[Markdoc]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Right. I suggested it that way because I've been told several times that the way you buy absolutes is to buy "enough" of whatever it is. If you want to Always Hit, buy "enough" OCV so that even if you roll a 18 you hit the highest DCV the GM allows. If you want to Never Be Hit, buy "enough" DCV so that even if they roll a 3 at the highest OCV allowed, they still miss.

 

That's not my way -- that's someone else's.

 

Then maybe I am misunderstanding what you wrote. "Invulnerability" purchased as extra DCV, lots of combat luck or Desolid are three different things mechanically. Only the first would be affected by someone rolling a 3. Only the second would be affected by a really large attack. Only the third would be affected by a power with "affects Desolid".

 

A single power "invulnerability" which treats all of these three as equivalent isn't possible (nor was it what was suggested by the FH "absolute effects" approach) unless you say "Mechanics are irrelevant".

 

And that doesn't change the fact that you have Always Hits attacking Can Never Be Hit' date=' you [i']still[/i] have to figure out what happens.

 

If you want a mechanistic approach, "what happens" depends on how the attack power is built and what the defence is.

 

Okay. What I'd like is for there to be a Power: Invulnerability. You spend X points and you are Invulnerable. I'm not trying to design it here and now, so I'm not postulating how many points, what it allows you to be Invulnerable to, all of the other mechanical details needed. I'm also not yet postulating how this is GM permission only and how it should have a built-in weakness.

 

There. I'm asking for mechanics.

 

And what I'm saying, is that you are not going to get them, any more than anyone has ever been able to provide a simple, direct answer to the question "Can God make a rock so heavy even he can't lift it?" Not because I think it's a bad idea. Not because I think people shouldn't use absolutes in their game. But because you're specifically asking for a mechanic that can't be mechanically described (at least, by the game as it exists now)

 

The problem is different from creating a power like "Resurrection" or "Wish". In both those cases, we could provide a mechanical solution, though a kludgy one, because those solutions "fit" into the system where nothing else currently sat. There was no contradiction in terms of mechanics with existing "bring back from the dead" or "alter reality" powers because those didn't exist.

 

If you try to introduce a new power modifier "absolute" which simply ignores existing mechanics, you have two potential approaches, both fraught with difficulties. The first is what I thought you were suggesting - that the new power ignore mechanics and operates entirely on special effects. Such an approach can only ever be constructed out of pure handwavium, because by definition you are ignoring the mechanics. How do you create a mechanic which ignores game mechanics? How does god make a rock so heavy even he can't lift it?

 

The second approach is the one Sindyr tried in his first post: to create a second level of mechanics unrelated to the existing mechanics: sort of a meta-mechanic underlying the existing game. I say "unrelated to the existing mechanics" because if you look at what he wrote, the same system could be applied to many games: swap out "50 points" with "one Feat" or "three dots" and you could apply it to D&D or WoD. It attempts to provide a mechanism for special effects - the cost of the absolute in his system depends not on the power it's being applied to, but the description of the power. It's an interesting approach, and might be made workable, although his first attempt is heavily flawed: absolute is actually hard to define for many powers and costs the same for powers with wide - even overwhelming - utility or hardly any utility at all. That leads to a balance/cost issue. A 1d6 EB that "kills anything" costs 55 points, or the same as a regular 11d6 energy blast but is many times more lethal. Heck, if it's limited to 4x a day, costs End, it costs the same as an almost useless 4d6 EB. Every ranged multipower should have one! Oddly, it also costs about a third the price of, but has almost the same effect, as a 20d6 EB that "Kills anything". While that appplication is clearly underpriced, the ability to buy enough range to Teleport anywhere in the Galaxy costs 16 points under the regular rules, but the "absolute" ability to "Teleport Anywhere" costs 52.

 

Still, if the cost of "absolute" scaled better, that's one approach that could work: creating a whole new set of mechanics which over-ride existing mechanics. At that point, though, you are creating quite a different game.

 

The final option is the simplest, but one that only gives provisonal absolutes. And that's to use the rules as is (or modified by the sentence "For games where absolutes are desired a die roll of 3 is not always a success and an 18 is not always a failure".). Treb's suggestion of using Forcewall (2 DEF gives absolute immunity to 1 DC) works fine but is still susceptible to NND, AVLD and attacks greater than the DC you bought imunity to. "Teleport anywhere" can be bought with range, but doesn't let you go through hardened forcewalls, unless you buy AP. Desolid lets you ignore many effects, but inhibits your ability to interact with the real world, etc. But that appears to be exactly what you don't want.

 

Those are the options, as I see it: make it up, make a new game, or live with things as they are.

 

cheers, Mark

[jtelson]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

And what I'm saying' date=' is that you are not going to get them, any more than anyone has ever been able to provide a simple, direct answer to the question "Can God make a rock so heavy even he can't lift it?"[/quote']

 

I'd really like to put an end to this one.

 

Yes and No, God not being subject to human concepts of limits, logic or causality can create create a rock that he can simultaneously lift and not lift.

 

 

Sorry for the hijack the question bugs me.

[Utech]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Here's a half-baked idea for an invulnerability addition to the game. If anyone thinks it deserves to be fully-baked (?), let me know.

 

Power Advantage: Invulnerability

Value: +???

Invulnerability makes a defense absolute against all Powers of a specific special effect. The special effect must be decided at the time a defense is made Invulnerable. A GM may rule that a specified special effect is overly broad (for example: "all energy" or "all weapons").

Invulnerability must be purchased on the character's most expensive defense.

Example: Pyro takes Invulnerability to heat attacks. He has a PD of 6, an ED of 7, and a Force Field giving 10rPD/20rED. He cannot apply the Power Advantage to his PD or ED; he must apply it to his Force Field.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

The problem with Invulnerability is that it is a very specific instance of an absolute.

 

If such a mechanic is to be truly HERO, then we need a mechanic for absolutes so that things like invulnerability can be done (an absolute defence).

 

Thus I would be against granting Chris Goodwin his power/machanic labelled invulnerability which had invulnerability style effects in the game. I would be more likely to welcome something that discussed absolutes and how any power/ability might be made absolute for a particular game (such as they have done in FH but possibly more comprehensive).

 

So if you are going to pop that half-baked idea in to brown it up then it needs switching from specific to general instances if it is not to cause HERO indigestion.

 

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Yes and No' date=' God not being subject to human concepts of limits, logic or causality can create create a rock that he can simultaneously lift and not lift.[/quote']

 

Schrodinger's Rock

[Utech]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

If such a mechanic is to be truly HERO' date=' then we need a mechanic for absolutes so that things like invulnerability can be done (an absolute defence).[/quote']

 

I don't think there's anything wrong, however, with having Invulnerability as the only absolute in the game. But I respect your point of view and certainly won't try to change your mind.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Example: Pyro takes Invulnerability to heat attacks. He has a PD of 6' date=' an ED of 7, and a Force Field giving 10rPD/20rED. He cannot apply the Power Advantage to his PD or ED; he must apply it to his Force Field.[/i']

 

Here's a question, not picking on Utech's mechanic here, pyro is just a convenient example.

 

Would that absolute defence provide defence against Mentallo's 16D6 Mental Illusion of a fiery blast that does BODY damage to him? Absolutely or simply increase the multiple required to achieve the effect?

 

 

Doc

[Markdoc]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

I'd really like to put an end to this one.

 

Yes and No, God not being subject to human concepts of limits, logic or causality can create create a rock that he can simultaneously lift and not lift.

 

 

Sorry for the hijack the question bugs me.

 

That's OK: but it's not a simple and direct answer. It's a way of saying "As we understand it, the question cannot be answered" which, when I think of it, is a pretty good reply also to "How do we design a mechanic for absolutes?"

 

cheers, Mark

[Utech]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Here's a question, not picking on Utech's mechanic here, pyro is just a convenient example.

 

Would that absolute defence provide defence against Mentallo's 16D6 Mental Illusion of a fiery blast that does BODY damage to him? Absolutely or simply increase the multiple required to achieve the effect?

 

 

Doc

 

According to the way I wrote it up, Pyro would take no damage. He's totally immune to any attack with the sfx: heat

He'd be immune to...

 

• an Energy Blast (PD or ED) with the heat sfx
  
• Mental Illusions intended to damage him with the heat sfx
  
• NND attacks with the heat sfx
  
• AVLD attacks with the heat sfx
  
• Change Environment adjustments with the heat sfx
  
• etc.
  

You name it, he's Invulnerable -- so long as the sfx is heat.

[Checkmate]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

GURPs Supers has the Super-Advantage Invulnerability. You're completely resistant to some attack forms. IIRC it's like 300pts for all kinetic damage (So PD) with an extra 60 points to get rid of the KB. (Yes I know it's an absolute ability in a game from the past 30 years but the V:tM ritual is just far more nifty).

It's actually a better example since the ritual lists at least 2 bonds it doesn't effect in the description, and has a 10 minute interruptable cast time. Not to mention, according to the write up, it's generally reserved for NPCs.

 

All that aside, I just want to say I completely agree with Markdoc. I'll add that the Fantasy Hero solution seems to most accurately simulate the comics. Caps shield is Invulnerable UNTIL he meets the Beyonder etc.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

According to the way I wrote it up' date=' Pyro would take no damage. He's totally immune to [i']any[/i] attack with the sfx: heat

He'd be immune to...

 

• an Energy Blast (PD or ED) with the heat sfx
  
• Mental Illusions intended to damage him with the heat sfx
  
• NND attacks with the heat sfx
  
• AVLD attacks with the heat sfx
  
• Change Environment adjustments with the heat sfx
  
• etc.
  

You name it, he's Invulnerable -- so long as the sfx is heat.

 

What you've done (and don't get me wrong, I have no issue with the idea) is state that the Invulnerable Advantage on the Force Field applies so all SFX.

 

But Mechanically RAW it would only work against something where the Force Field applies as a defense.

 

IF the NND defense is LS: Heat then the FF is Mechanically uninvolved. And Mechanically would not stop such Heat SFX Damage. By deciding it does you have made an arbitrary Game Level decision and claimed it's a Mechanic.

 

You have taken the Fantasy Hero "Absolute Effect Rule" to the next obvious step with the addition of an Advantage.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

What you've done (and don't get me wrong' date=' I have no issue with the idea) is state that the Invulnerable Advantage on the Force Field applies so all SFX.[/quote']

 

That is why I asked the question. I thought that the advantage as written implied that and I wanted to explore what people thought.

 

Would the SFX of a mental attack be covered as the person was so convinced that he was invulnerable render the mental attack impotent (it's an easy argument to make) or would it increase the multiple for the effect - require a x5 perhaps when a x4 might otherwise be sufficient.

 

It is an interesting question and one that any absolute rule should take into account. IMO of course. :-)

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

I proposed just such a Power two years ago and linked it upthread. I'm not saying it's perfect' date=' but I still feel it would be a good starting point and is worthy of playtesting.[/quote']

 

 

IIRC your Invulnerability was unkillability - I think that what most invulnerablility seeksers seek is unhurtability - taking neither Body nor Stun.