New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

[Trebuchet]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

AD&D2E - Energy Drain Wizard Spell (9th) Level; target creature hit loses 2 Hit Dice, permanently, no saving throw.

It took me less than 5 minutes to find that, I am sure that if you really started looking through the myriad of gaming systems out there you will find other such Absolutes.

I'm not sure that qualifies as an absolute even by the definition of the OP. Yes, the target loses 2 dice permanently, but I'm pretty sure he can regain them as he levels up and there may be other ways as well.

 

The only absolutes I can think of in Hero now are that a natural 3 roll of 3d6 is always a hit and a natural 18 is always a miss. That might be an adequate precedent for some.

[jtelson]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

I'm not sure that qualifies as an absolute even by the definition of the OP. Yes, the target loses 2 dice permanently, but I'm pretty sure he can regain them as he levels up and there may be other ways as well.

 

The only absolutes I can think of in Hero now are that a natural 3 roll of 3d6 is always a hit and a natural 18 is always a miss. That might be an adequate precedent for some.

 

WoD had/has many absolutes, the one that springs to mind is a magical effect where the caster can open anything; Door, sure; Vault, easy; Dormant Volcano, no problem; Fault line, Yup; Anything. Of course he had to cut out his tongue and drap it across the opening which I suppose goes back to the importance of appropriate costing.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

I'm not sure that qualifies as an absolute even by the definition of the OP. Yes, the target loses 2 dice permanently, but I'm pretty sure he can regain them as he levels up and there may be other ways as well.

 

The only absolutes I can think of in Hero now are that a natural 3 roll of 3d6 is always a hit and a natural 18 is always a miss. That might be an adequate precedent for some.

 

2E Monsters didn't level. Permanent, un-reversible Hit Dice loss.

 

Aside from a Wish Spell application. So, I suppose that'd be where two absolutes meet. . .

 

Which is why I skipped the part about it removing a Level from Characters where appropriate because it does mention they can earn the level back.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

I thought Magic Resistance applies vs. spell/effects with no saving throw?!

[ghost-angel]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

I thought Magic Resistance applies vs. spell/effects with no saving throw?!

 

... I had to go back down into the basement and find my DMG.

 

Some really cool pictures in those books. Er, right.

 

Yeah, it does. And the example they give: Magic Missile.

 

An absolute - Always Hits.

 

And I could probably find a creature written up that has 100% Magic Resistance if I wanted to look through the several hundred in my Monster Manuals.

 

(heh, my 2E books are being kept as "art books" .... yeesh)

[Checkmate]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

I'm not sure that qualifies as an absolute even by the definition of the OP. Yes, the target loses 2 dice permanently, but I'm pretty sure he can regain them as he levels up and there may be other ways as well.

 

The only absolutes I can think of in Hero now are that a natural 3 roll of 3d6 is always a hit and a natural 18 is always a miss. That might be an adequate precedent for some.

It's not even close to an absolute. If that's the example we're going with, every spell that a saving throw doesn't negate is an absolute. IF you get hit you will absolutely take damage. Sure some things are immune to some types of damage, but some things are immune to level drain too. There's even a spell that protects from level drain.

 

P.S.

The Shield spell negates a magic missile. So does Anti-Magic Shell, Lesser Protection from Magic etc. etc. No absolutes.

[Trebuchet]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

2E Monsters didn't level. Permanent, un-reversible Hit Dice loss.

 

Aside from a Wish Spell application. So, I suppose that'd be where two absolutes meet. . .

 

Which is why I skipped the part about it removing a Level from Characters where appropriate because it does mention they can earn the level back.

I say that still falls short of an absolute if characters can recover lost HPs. Monsters don't level up because they're just sword-fodder for PCs.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

eh.

 

Either way, I'm looking at one system. Keep looking, you'll probably find a system with an Absolute.

And Shield negates Magic Missile Damage - the missile still hits. The Absolute there is "Always Hits" not "Always Damages" - there's a difference.

 

I'm certainly not advocating absolutes.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

I think the key points are as follows:

 

Absolutes are setting specific.

 

The creator of the setting or gamemaster that uses the setting can always create an exception to the absolute.

 

example:

Captain America's shield

 

Before Secret Wars and the Beyonder it was considered indestructible.

It took a character from a completely different reality to actually damage the thing (for the first time at least).

[schir1964]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

I'm only addressing the idea of a Scaling Absolute, nothing else.

 

This is the SFX approach.

 

Absolute Defense

This allows the character to ignore damage from attacks of a specific SFX. The GM defines what qualifies as a specific SFX.

 

 

Cost

 

• Baseline Cost: The GM sets this to whatever level that seems appropriate. [Example Baseline Cost: 5 Points]
  
• Balance Modifier: Baseline Cost * Total Number Of Players
  
• Maintenance Rule: The total cost of the Absolute Defense must be spent each time experience points are awarded or at whatever regular interval the GM designates.
  

 

 

Just Another Mechanic

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Checkmate]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

eh.

 

Either way, I'm looking at one system. Keep looking, you'll probably find a system with an Absolute.

And Shield negates Magic Missile Damage - the missile still hits. The Absolute there is "Always Hits" not "Always Damages" - there's a difference.

 

I'm certainly not advocating absolutes.

Missile hits the shield not the intended target. Anti-Magic Shell, the missile doesn't hit either. My point is, I don't think you will find an absolute. There is a reason they don't exist in RPG's.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Missile hits the shield not the intended target. Anti-Magic Shell' date=' the missile doesn't hit either. My point is, I don't think you will find an absolute. There is a reason they don't exist in RPG's.[/quote']

 

Those would be the competing absolutes. "Magic Missile always hits and hurts its target" vs "Anti Magic Shell always prevents magic from working". [Really? Why doesn't the Shell itself shut down? It's magic, isn't it?]

 

As for the Shield, it must be an Absolute [target is never hit] with limitations [only vs Magic Missile Absolutes].

 

Not that this makes for a system ever remotely more workable, of course. D&D suffers from the need for rulings as to how different rules, often different semi-absolutes, interact.

[Checkmate]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Those would be the competing absolutes. "Magic Missile always hits and hurts its target" vs "Anti Magic Shell always prevents magic from working". [Really? Why doesn't the Shell itself shut down? It's magic' date= isn't it?]

 

As for the Shield, it must be an Absolute [target is never hit] with limitations [only vs Magic Missile Absolutes].

 

Not that this makes for a system ever remotely more workable, of course. D&D suffers from the need for rulings as to how different rules, often different semi-absolutes, interact.

Well by that philosophy everything is a Absolute. Everything hits, except when you miss. Everything does damage excpet vs things that resist it.

 

I think if furthers my point that for everything that may have been an absolute has a counter specifically designed for it, in effect making it a non-absolute. I can't help but think there must be a reason we can't find a true absolute.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Those would be the competing absolutes. "Magic Missile always hits and hurts its target" vs "Anti Magic Shell always prevents magic from working". [Really? Why doesn't the Shell itself shut down? It's magic' date= isn't it?]

 

As for the Shield, it must be an Absolute [target is never hit] with limitations [only vs Magic Missile Absolutes].

 

Not that this makes for a system ever remotely more workable, of course. D&D suffers from the need for rulings as to how different rules, often different semi-absolutes, interact.

 

It occurred to me the other night. X Always Hits, vs. Y Can Never Be Hit. The easiest way and most fair way to handle it is that they cancel each other out, and you go back to OCV vs. DCV. Which also means that if X's Always Hits is bought as a massive bonus to OCV, and Y's Can Never Be Hit is bought as a massive bonus to DCV, neither of them gets their bonus, and it's X's straight OCV vs. Y's straight DCV. It would be similar if Y's Can Never Be Hit is bought as massive amounts of Combat Luck, or Desolidification, or however.

 

The key is that the absolutes essentially exist at the pleasure of the GM, and if they cancel out then they cancel out, regardless of how the mechanics come into play.

 

Edit: Actually, thinking more about it.... "superheroic" Can Never Be Hit should cancel out "superheroic" Always Hits, assuming you've paid the same for the absolute in each case. "Cosmic" Always Hits will, however, always hit "superheroic" Can Never Be Hit. (The Beyonder could tear Juggernaut apart without a second thought.)

[jtelson]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Well by that philosophy everything is a Absolute. Everything hits, except when you miss. Everything does damage excpet vs things that resist it.

 

I think if furthers my point that for everything that may have been an absolute has a counter specifically designed for it, in effect making it a non-absolute. I can't help but think there must be a reason we can't find a true absolute.

 

How many absolutes would you like? I've posted one, I can find more if you'd like.

[Markdoc]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

It occurred to me the other night. X Always Hits' date=' vs. Y Can Never Be Hit. The easiest way and most fair way to handle it is that they cancel each other out, and you go back to OCV vs. DCV. Which also means that if X's Always Hits is bought as a massive bonus to OCV, and Y's Can Never Be Hit is bought as a massive bonus to DCV, neither of them gets their bonus, and it's X's straight OCV vs. Y's straight DCV. It would be similar if Y's Can Never Be Hit is bought as massive amounts of Combat Luck, or Desolidification, or however. [/quote']

 

See, now we get to the incomprehension place. If your absolutes are merely DCV, OCV, PD, desolid, etc, why not simply use DCV, OCV, PD, desolid, etc?

 

The key is that the absolutes essentially exist at the pleasure of the GM' date=' and if they cancel out then they cancel out, [b']regardless of how the mechanics come into play[/b].

 

Edit: Actually, thinking more about it.... "superheroic" Can Never Be Hit should cancel out "superheroic" Always Hits, assuming you've paid the same for the absolute in each case. "Cosmic" Always Hits will, however, always hit "superheroic" Can Never Be Hit. (The Beyonder could tear Juggernaut apart without a second thought.)

 

My emphasis. Ah! Now I understand! But you're on the wrong forum. The game you want is Marvel Superheroes, not Hero, which is a mechanics-driven system. In Hero it makes no sense that "Is never hit" bought as Desolid (less than 40 points, when limited) would have exactly the same cost and effect as +50 CSL (DCV) at 250 points - or that it would change your DCV - or, for that matter that it would somehow interact differently with the 22 point power "1d6 RKA, affects desolid" than just a regular desolidification simply by declaring it "absolute".

 

cheers, Mark

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

See' date=' now we get to the incomprehension place. If your absolutes are merely DCV, OCV, PD, desolid, etc, why not simply use DCV, OCV, PD, desolid, etc?[/quote']

 

Because when I've asked for "How do you do an absolute" in the past, that's what is suggested to me. Buy "enough" OCV so that even if you roll an 18, you always hit. Buy "enough" DCV so that even if someone rolls a 3, they miss.

 

My emphasis. Ah! Now I understand! But you're on the wrong forum. The game you want is Marvel Superheroes, not Hero, which is a mechanics-driven system.

 

And here's where you're telling me "I'm cold, so you have to wear a sweater." You don't want absolutes in your games, so I can't use Hero to play them.

[Vondy]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Not a criticism, just an observation: this is generally genre subjective.

 

The issue of absolutes is generally a super-heroic level problem due to the higher numbers and dice-throws in play - and because, super-heroic and high-end cinematic genres lend themselves to these effects which cost out the kazoo. At the heroic level its generally much less of an issue because the scale is significantly smaller, and because you don't need these effects as much. Also, gear is generally paid for with money instead of points.

 

My point is, its not so much a hero issue as a genre [and scale] issue.

 

I think you would either need to come up with custom powers, or find a much simpler advantage system. One might be able to extrapolate a defensive version of NND-AVLD that works well insofar as it has GM approval, and its value is scaled to how broad the absolute part of the power is, and how many counters it has.

 

In essence, an NND with two pre-defined/approved conditions.

 

One might also be able to slap this on characteristics. For instance, the Juggernaut's immovability/unstoppable effects could be modeled by saying: 80 ST, Absolute [unstoppable-Immovable; Can Be Tripped-Ground He's On Can Be Lifted] +X.

 

It would take some work to tweak it into order, but it could work without putting too much strain on the system. Or, at least, no more than NND-AVLD already does. And it could work as a means of eliminating some lengthy characteristic based powers.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

First off I'd like to complement sindyr on an interesting post and some really interesting thinking behind it. It has certainly got us talking.

 

The idea of using 'processes' is an interesting and promising one, but I do think it needs some work to work well in Hero. The example of the 'invulnerable brick' v the 'utlimate destruction energy blaster' illustrates this for me: whether your ability works in a given situation depends not so muchj on what you've paid for it but also how you've defined it. I'm a lawyer, and what worries me aboutt eh approach is we will rapidly get half page essays on how this particular ability actually interrupts any other ability or process you can think of before it is itself interrupted.

 

In a given game you'd have to decide what the trump ability was - defence or attack - and that would very much set teh tone of the game.

 

Another problem with absolute abilities that you don't address in the initial post is that the cost structure becomes self limiting: at a high enough point total, everyone can afford to have absolute abilities, probably in several areas. In the final analysis an ability that is absolute becomes infinitely desireable when compared to a non-absolute ability of similar cost.

 

I've long argued against any kind of absolute in Hero, not because I don't think it can or even should be done, but because I just don't believe it is necessary*. if you are desperate to have an indestructible character then you can build it, for a given campaign, with high enough defences - but you probably won't have much left over for anything else AND if the points in the campaign increase then you are going to have to spend your allotment on mintaining your invulnerability rather than developing in another direction.

 

You can have an absolute ability in a given game - or something very like - with a NND attack, for instance. Although there is always SOMETHING that can stop it, it is not generally stopped by anything. In the terms you use it is a process that is only interruptable in one way, and that way interrupts the whole process. You'll have to pardon me if that is a mash of what you said

 

It seems to me, as we do not have similar 'absolute defences' (perhaps desolidification, arguably) that Hero assumes that attacks should trump defences, that the ultimalte force will overcome the immoveable object. In a game I think this is a good approach - afterall the alternative is potentially stagnation.

 

I appreciate that my analysis is probably at least as negative toward your idea as many of the others posted here but i also hope that it gives you something to think on.

 

In a given campaign this approach could work wonderfully - especially if you limit it to one absolute ability per character. Because I am a little wary of rules lawyers (being one) I might be inclined, when there are two opposing absolute abilities, to resolve them in another way, rather than by definition. I would propose EITHER that the more expensive ability wins (in point terms) OR you dice for it. Dicing for it would work like this: each roll 3d6 and the higher total wins - you could add a bonus of (power cost/10) if you liked. You could rule that you dice each time you come into conflict or that yuo record the result for the clash and the same result always applies. Could be interesting...

 

 

 

 

*so long as we get rid of the current version of 'killing attack'

[Markdoc]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

And here's where you're telling me "I'm cold' date=' so you have to wear a sweater." You don't want absolutes in your games, so I can't use Hero to play them.[/quote']

 

No, you were suggesting dumping the mechanics and just introducing non-mechanics driven absolutes. At that point you're not playing Hero system: why then ask about Hero system mechanics?

 

I'm not feigning incomprehension - I genuinely can't comprehend the thought processes going on here. You want absolutes. OK, that I can understand, even I don't particularly want them in my game. You then say "I want to dump the mechanics and define absolutes by special effect. What mechanics should I use for that?"

 

If you want to use hero system mechanics to define absolutes, then as in Sindyr's system (or any system) you will get at best things which are close to absolutes.

 

If you want to simply define an attack as "cosmic" or "mighty" or "superheroic" and say they have absolute effects relative to each other, it seems pointless to enquire about Hero system mechanics: you have decided not to use Hero system at that point and to skip the mechanics. That's perfectly fine. If it makes a good game, go for it. But it's not Hero system, nor will you ever get Hero mechanics for it. It's like trying to cost out a 1d6 attack that always destroys its target compared to the price of a 12d6 attack that always destroys its target.

 

Essentially I'm saying you can't use Hero to play absolutes, because there is no way to build absolutes in Hero. An attack that always kills does infinite dice of damage and costs infinite points. An attack that does 1000 d6 damage costs 5000 points - but it isn't absolute and won't necessarily kill anything. There is no way to reconcile those two approaches.

 

cheers, Mark

[Checkmate]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

How many absolutes would you like? I've posted one' date=' I can find more if you'd like.[/quote']

What's the name of it? What book is it in? I can almost guarentee there is a way to stop it.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

No' date=' you were suggesting dumping the mechanics and just introducing non-mechanics driven absolutes. At that point you're not playing Hero system: why then ask about Hero system mechanics?[/quote']

 

No. I'm looking for mechanics.

 

I'm not feigning incomprehension - I genuinely can't comprehend the thought processes going on here. You want absolutes. OK, that I can understand, even I don't particularly want them in my game. You then say "I want to dump the mechanics and define absolutes by special effect. What mechanics should I use for that?"

 

Wow. I'm not sindyr, but I don't think I've ever been anything but clear that I'm looking for mechanics to do the job.

 

If you want to use hero system mechanics to define absolutes, then as in Sindyr's system (or any system) you will get at best things which are close to absolutes.

 

What I'm looking for is things to define, for instance, the Human Torch's invulnerability to fire. Juggernaut's ability to not be hurt by anything at superheroic scale. Superman's invulnerability. In source, these are characters at, theoretically, PC power levels.

 

If you want to simply define an attack as "cosmic" or "mighty" or "superheroic" and say they have absolute effects relative to each other, it seems pointless to enquire about Hero system mechanics: you have decided not to use Hero system at that point and to skip the mechanics.

 

I'm looking for a way to add mechanics to the Hero System. Is there a way I can be any more clear?

 

I'd like to see mechanics that do it easily. I'd like to see an Invulnerability Power that's called Invulnerability, not Desolidification with Modifiers. I don't care if it's expensive, but I don't think it should be impossible or even difficult.

 

Defining power levels ("cosmic" vs. "superhero") is partly a campaign issue to reflect the way "absolutes" seem to work in source. The Beyonder can create heat hot enough to burn the Human Torch, but in the typical session fire won't touch him. He never has to cross his fingers and hope the GM doesn't roll a 3, or hope that the GM didn't buy Affects Desolid, or hope that there's not some other mechanical gremlin hiding out somewhere waiting to bite him.

 

The sorts of things I'm asking about are common in source, specifically in the types of source that Hero has always tried to emulate. We have ways of describing rough character power levels; Heroic, Standard Superhero, High Powered Superhero, and so forth.

 

Essentially I'm saying you can't use Hero to play absolutes, because there is no way to build absolutes in Hero. An attack that always kills does infinite dice of damage and costs infinite points. An attack that does 1000 d6 damage costs 5000 points - but it isn't absolute and won't necessarily kill anything. There is no way to reconcile those two approaches.

 

We have an attack that, if you have the appropriate defense, never does you any damage; if you don't have the appropriate defense it always damages you fully. Its cost is not related in any way to the maximum Active Points, DC, or DEF of a setting.

 

At one time, we didn't have a mechanism in Hero for bringing characters back from the dead. There were long discussions about exactly what Powers to use to do it and whether it should be done in Hero at all. Eventually, we got a mechanic to do it. Whether to allow it or not is up to the GM. How it interacts with other characters, with certain magic systems, with certain cosmologies, all of that is up to the GM. That's what I'm looking for, for "absolute" effects of the kind that show up in source.

 

If you're going to argue that we shouldn't have it, you're in the same position of those 10 and 15 years ago who argued that we shouldn't have resurrection effects in Hero. If you're going to argue that we should or can use existing effects to get close, and let the GM handwave the last inch, you're in the same position of those who argued 10 and 15 years ago that the current power set was sufficient, and all you needed to do was get close enough and let the GM handwave the last inch. If you're going to argue that it will unbalance the game, there were people 15 years ago saying the same thing about resurrection as well.

 

Your arguments don't hold any more water than those did.

[Checkmate]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Defining power levels ("cosmic" vs. "superhero") is partly a campaign issue to reflect the way "absolutes" seem to work in source. The Beyonder can create heat hot enough to burn the Human Torch, but in the typical session fire won't touch him.

Are you aware that the FH solution mimics this EXACTLY?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Are you aware that the FH solution mimics this EXACTLY?

 

I'm not. I will have to go back and read the section.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

What I'm looking for is things to define' date=' for instance, the Human Torch's invulnerability to fire. Juggernaut's ability to not be hurt by anything at superheroic scale. Superman's invulnerability. In source, these are characters at, theoretically, PC power levels. [/quote']

 

Except the Johnny Storm Human Torch was burned by the WW II android Human Torch in their first meeting. I don't think he's Cosmic, is he? And despite the fact the android was also invulnerable to fire, Johnny was able to take him out with (I believe) the first use of his Nova Blast. Those are both at, theoretically, PC power levels, aren't they?

 

Juggy got his head handed to him by Onslaught, and I think he's been beaten up by a few others in his career. Apparently, his level of invulnerability depends on how well he serves his patron, so a case could be made that he falls from Absolute if he doesn't meet the criteria, and/or that Onslaught was at the next scale up.

 

Doomsday beat up Superman and also hit guys like Booster Gold without killing them. Not seeing that Absolute. Seeing "defenses higher than any damage I've ever encountered".