Power advantages to Martial Arts

[Nygenn]

Alright I'm having a bit of trouble creating a fancy martial art style.

The idea is the following:

 

I have a martial artist that has already mastered a martial art form, though in effect this martial art is just the basis for more advanced techniques.

I was planning on applying advantages to the indivudual maneuvers to make them stronger, more potent. (see it as a way of the character taking the martial art style to a whole new level)

 

There was one specific effect I kinda got stuck on. I wanted to add the advantage No-Normal-Defense to the entire style, though obviously it'll only apply to the maneuvers that deal dmg.

The thing is, how do I do this? Do I have to buy NND for each maneuver seperatly, or do I buy a Group Naked Advantage? In which case the group would be all the maneuvers in the style.

 

And even if do say yes or no I'm not sure I'll know what to do. I find the part about naked advantages and the part about applying power advantages to maneuvers to be a bit complicated. (english is not my primary language)

 

Please some commends on this if you can. Thanks

 

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PS: just to clarify what I'm referring to I'll post the Martial Art Style I made.

 

JYUUKEN PO

 

Maneuver: Hakke Kuushou (shove)

Phase: ½

Cost: 4

OCV:+0

DCV:+0

Effect: +15 STR to Shove

 

Maneuver: Hakke Nishou (Defensive Strike)

Phase: ½

Cost: 5

OCV:+1

DCV:+3

Effect: STR Strike

 

Maneuver: Hakke Suitai (Martial Disarm)

Phase: ½

Cost: 4

OCV:+0

DCV:+0

Effect: Disarm; +10 STR to Disarm roll

 

Maneuver: Hakke Sujikai (Root)

Phase: ½

Cost: 4

OCV:+0

DCV:+0

Effect: +15 STR vs. Shove; Block, Abort

 

Maneuver: Hakke Tonsou (Martial Escape)

Phase: ½

Cost: 5

OCV:+0

DCV:+0

Effect: +15 STR vs. Grabs; Target Falls

 

Maneuver: Hakke Yonshou (Fast Strike)

Phase: ½

Cost: 4

OCV:+2

DCV:+0

Effect: STR +2d6 Strike

 

Maneuver: Hakkeshou Fusen (Martial Slide)

Phase: ½

Cost: 5

OCV:+0

DCV:+0

Effect: STR Strike; Target Falls; Fmove

 

Maneuver: Hakkeshou Kaiten (Martial Block)

Phase: ½

Cost: 4

OCV:+2

DCV:+2

Effect: Bloack, Abort

 

Maneuver: Shugo Hakkeshou (Martial Dodge)

Phase: ½

Cost: 4

OCV:-

DCV:+5

Effect: Dodge, Affects all attacks, Abort

 

SKILLS

 

Cs: Contortionist

Ks: Jyuuken

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power advantages to Martial Arts

 

Applying Advantages to Martial Arts is overly complicated to start with. . .

 

But, legally you have to purchase the NND Advantage for each Maneuver separately.

[Beast]

Re: Power advantages to Martial Arts

 

I'd say figure out what the highest damage class you want to do NND and then buy a naked advantage NND

so if the max damage you do is is 5d6 with strength then a naked NND would cost 25 pts

and then put what ever limitations you want on that(only with MA maneuvers-1/4)should you have weapons that you also use

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power advantages to Martial Arts

 

You're also probably at the point that simply converting the Martial Art to a series of Powers and Combat Skill Levels is an easier option to work with.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Power advantages to Martial Arts

 

Seriously, the way I would approach this initially is to attempt to persuade the GM to allow up to 10 point Martial Maneuvers in the campaign and then add the NND element to the applicable Maneuvers.

 

Of course unless the GM wants to run a crazy over the top MA-centric campaign they would be insane to allow you to do this, but its worth a shot.

 

There is also the consideration that allowing one character to have many different kinds of NND's vs different defenses is a recipe for imbalance.

 

 

That aside, if the uber-Maneuver approach flops, just buy a NND Damage Shield with the Offensive Advantage, and apply any applicable limitations such as Only Usable In Conjunction With A Martial Maneuver (-1), etc. This accomplishes the same basic thing and is even book-legal out of the box.

[Markdoc]

Re: Power advantages to Martial Arts

 

I'd agree with the last two posters: martial arts as it stands is not designed to play well with the whole powers/advantages/limitations system. As a GM, I would never allow advantages (or limitations, for that matter) to be placed on martial arts maneuvers.

 

It sounds like you should be building these attacks with powers instead.

 

cheers, Mark

[Nygenn]

Re: Power advantages to Martial Arts

 

all fair points.

 

The NND is solelly for the purpose of evading someone's PD. any other defense still applies. Other idea's were perhaps adding a damage shield to the block maneuver and/or autofire to the fast trike etc, stuff like that.

 

While I see why most of you say that it's best to simply create them as powers, I don't really see what difference that would make. The effects would/should still be the same as when you simply add an advantage to a maneuver right?

 

All in all this whole idea is nothing that'll happen fast. We get about 3 exp per adventure and have to buy flavor skills from that too. (examples are spesific dances, or board games, or new dishes you learned to cook).

 

So it'll really be a while before any of this is ever going to become something. Still this is the ultimate goal I have in mind for my character. For her to turn this basic martial art style into something more advance. (think in the style of mixing Chi, Chakra, magic energies etc)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power advantages to Martial Arts

 

Considering a +1/2 Advantage for a character with 15STR on a Martial Escape costs 22pts. Yep, it'll be a long time before you start to get Advantages (especially high cost ones) on offensive maneuvers.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Power advantages to Martial Arts

 

I can't see why you can't use a naked advantage. NND is +1, so that would be a 5 pointer. It is so ridiculously cheap you might as well make it Does Body too. 10 points, squire, and cheap at half the price.

 

Of course a NA costs END, so invest a further 5 points and it doesn't. 15 points. The Ultimate Martial Artist. The whole world a crumbly candy bar in your hand. Except against stuff with the NND Defence. Gor blimey.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What?

 

Oh, yeah, one more thing. You'll need one of those insane GMs Killer Shrike was talking about. Or drunk. Drunk will do.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power advantages to Martial Arts

 

I can't see why you can't use a naked advantage. NND is +1, so that would be a 5 pointer. It is so ridiculously cheap you might as well make it Does Body too. 10 points, squire, and cheap at half the price.

 

Of course a NA costs END, so invest a further 5 points and it doesn't. 15 points. The Ultimate Martial Artist. The whole world a crumbly candy bar in your hand. Except against stuff with the NND Defence. Gor blimey.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What?

 

Oh, yeah, one more thing. You'll need one of those insane GMs Killer Shrike was talking about. Or drunk. Drunk will do.

 

Except applying Advantages to Martial Maneuvers doesn't work that way. You don't apply it to the actual cost of the maneuver.

 

NND would break down like this.

Assumption: STR 15.

Maneuver: Martial Strike (STR + 2D6, +2DCV)

breakdown:

15 (STR) + 10 (2D6=2DCs) = 25 Base.

25 + 10 (+5 per +1 DCV) = 35 Points.

NND is a +1: 35*2 = 70 Points.

Apply that like you do NakedAdvantages (final cost - base points): 70 - 35 = 35.

 

So it will cost a 15 STR character with no Martial Damage Classes 35 Points to make a Martial Strike an NND Attack.

[Markdoc]

Re: Power advantages to Martial Arts

 

While I see why most of you say that it's best to simply create them as powers' date=' I don't really see what difference that would make. The effects would/should still be the same as when you simply add an advantage to a maneuver right?[/quote']

 

No. The powers are built (and costed) to work with advantages and limitations. The maneuvers are not: their real cost does not reflect their active cost. So Martial Strike (for example) adds a limited version of +10 STR (10 active points) and +2 DCV (+8 points) for a total of 18 active points. It's neither sensible or balanced to treat it like a 4 point power and add advantages to it - and no GM I know would allow that. I have seen players try before though

 

cheers, Mark

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Power advantages to Martial Arts

 

No. The powers are built (and costed) to work with advantages and limitations. The maneuvers are not: their real cost does not reflect their active cost. So Martial Strike (for example) adds a limited version of +10 STR (10 active points) and +2 DCV (+8 points) for a total of 18 active points. It's neither sensible or balanced to treat it like a 4 point power and add advantages to it - and no GM I know would allow that. I have seen players try before though

 

cheers, Mark

QFE -- i.e. agreed

[BoneDaddy]

Re: Power advantages to Martial Arts

 

There is another way. Buy a NND H-HA, and a weapon proficiency for the martial art form with that H-HA for another point. I think that should get you up as high as twice the DCs of the H-HA, provided the Maneuver & STR can bump it that high. It ain't perfect, but I think it's legal.

 

As an example, any of the chain weapons have the Indirect advantage. Any Okinawan Karateka skilled with the Nunchuka gets to use that indirect advatage with all of the appropriate martial maneuvers. Yes?

[BoneDaddy]

Re: Power advantages to Martial Arts

 

What about this... Say a Martial Artist uses a weapon of some sort, perhaps a selection of them.

 

What if you bought a naked advatage, applicable to Hand to Hand Attacks and HKAs? For an easy one, how about a Feint? Naked Advantage: Indirect (+1/4), on up to 30AP of HKA or H-HA, requires a Sleight of Hand roll, for a whopping 6(?) points.

 

The Martial Artist could use the feint skill with any weapon he's skilled with, which means he could use it with any maneuver he's skilled with, too.

 

Tell me why that is not rules legal, and whether it reeks of cheese.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Power advantages to Martial Arts

 

Steve Long has basically ceded that the rules do not address combining Advantaged HA's with Martial Arts. There are no limits to the # of bonus MA DC's that can be added (unlike the limits to the amount of STR that can be).

 

It is completely a GM call thing.

[Markdoc]

Re: Power advantages to Martial Arts

 

What about this... Say a Martial Artist uses a weapon of some sort, perhaps a selection of them.

 

What if you bought a naked advatage, applicable to Hand to Hand Attacks and HKAs? For an easy one, how about a Feint? Naked Advantage: Indirect (+1/4), on up to 30AP of HKA or H-HA, requires a Sleight of Hand roll, for a whopping 6(?) points.

 

The Martial Artist could use the feint skill with any weapon he's skilled with, which means he could use it with any maneuver he's skilled with, too.

 

Tell me why that is not rules legal, and whether it reeks of cheese.

 

Because he bought it for Hand to Hand Attacks and HKAs - not skills. I've had players try for advantaged martial arts - I've always pointed them at powers instead.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sociotard]

Re: Power advantages to Martial Arts

 

What about this... Say a Martial Artist uses a weapon of some sort, perhaps a selection of them.

 

What if you bought a naked advatage, applicable to Hand to Hand Attacks and HKAs? For an easy one, how about a Feint? Naked Advantage: Indirect (+1/4), on up to 30AP of HKA or H-HA, requires a Sleight of Hand roll, for a whopping 6(?) points.

 

The Martial Artist could use the feint skill with any weapon he's skilled with, which means he could use it with any maneuver he's skilled with, too.

 

Tell me why that is not rules legal, and whether it reeks of cheese.

Part of the problem is that many Martial Maneuvers include extra DCs, plus many characters purchase extra DCs for their Martial Arts package straight out.

 

If the AP for the attack including the weapon DCs, the STR DCs, Martial arts DCs (using the stated rule of 5 points per DC), and Extra DCs all totaled up to 30 or less . . . it wouldn't seem unbalancing to me.

 

I have a question too: Is it rules-legal to use martial arts with weapons that have advantages? An arrow may be Armor Piercing, a greatclub may be Penetrating, a flail has Indirect, and if you want to get fantastical a sword of Ghost-Slaying probably has Affects Desolidified. Are all of the above restricted to basic strikes alone?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Power advantages to Martial Arts

 

...

 

I have a question too: Is it rules-legal to use martial arts with weapons that have advantages? An arrow may be Armor Piercing, a greatclub may be Penetrating, a flail has Indirect, and if you want to get fantastical a sword of Ghost-Slaying probably has Affects Desolidified. Are all of the above restricted to basic strikes alone?

 

from 5er page 407

 

Adding Damage To Attacks With Advantages

 

Adding damage becomes a little more complicated if the attack has Advantages.

 

COMBAT SKILL LEVELS, HAYMAKERS, AND MARTIAL MANEUVERS

 

Damage bonuses from Haymakers, Martial Maneuvers, and Combat Skill Levels are not affected by Advantages. They add to an attack that has Advantages at the same rate, and by the same rules, as they do to an attack with no Advantages.

 

Note that this can quickly become abusive if the original Advantaged HA is of relatively low dice and the character has matching STR plus extra Damage Classes with his Martial Arts.

 

Assuming a character with a 20 STR you can build the following:

 

40 Mighty Smack Of Doom!: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6, Does x1 1/2 Knockback (+1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Indirect (Any origin, always fired away from attacker; +1/2) (60 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2)

[Notes: AOE 1 Hex Accurate = Can't Be Dodged. Indirect = Can't be Blocked.] - END=6

 

4 Martial Strike: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 8d6 Strike

4 Martial Dodge: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +5 DCV, Dodge, Affects All Attacks, Abort

4 Martial Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort

8 +2 HTH Damage Class(es)

 

This character can combine the HA and Martial Strike to do a 12d6 attack that has the following properties:

 

• Is always vs. DCV 3 (Dive For Cover is the only way to actively avoid being hit) unless the target somehow has a Hardened Block.
  
• Does x1.5 KB (Average 18-11=7" which is pretty good for a 'Martial Artist')
  
• Is Armor Piercing
  
• Only costs 8 END including STR used
  

 

All of this for 60 points and he gets a Martial Dodge and Block for free!

 

HM

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power advantages to Martial Arts

 

One of the biggest issues with just adding an Advantage to a Maneuver is they frequently include both more DCs and CSL bonuses.

 

While a 5pt. Maneuver is usually not that unbalancing in actual play - paying 2 pts to make that Maneuver (plus STR, plus Skill Levels) Armor Piercing (for example) can quickly become unbalancing when you realize that someone who bought an Advantaged HA pays more to do the same thing. And - the Maneuver can have its DCs more than doubled while the HA is stuck at double it's Base Value.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Power advantages to Martial Arts

 

... the HA is stuck at double it's Base Value.

 

This is not entirely accurate.

In 5er pages 405-406 it spells out specific exceptions for HA and extra DC's for unarmed Martial Maneuvers.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power advantages to Martial Arts

 

This is not entirely accurate.

In 5er pages 405-406 it spells out specific exceptions for HA and extra DC's for unarmed Martial Maneuvers.

 

That's Hand Attack adding with MAs.

With HA+STR you're (IIRC) at only double.

 

And more to the point, if you Advantage the MA and add unadvantaged HAs, skies the limit.

 

But I'm a couple thousand miles from my rulebook ATM. . .

[pinecone]

Re: Power advantages to Martial Arts

 

Yeah I'd say for "Sublime" manuevers adding in a small HA with an advantage that is usable with the MA should do the trick.

 

"Sublime pressure point secrets" HA +2D6 NND,Does Body 20 pts, +1 point "Usable with Pressure secrets", and you can add up to 2D6 with str, and whatever with MA.

 

GM's option though because this way can bust damage expectations all to pieces....

 

So STR 20, Spd strike, with no dc's is 5D6 NND, Does body (YIKES!) if I'm figuring correctly that is...

 

Ummm I think 20 STR would only add 1D6 'cause NND is an "exeption" to STR adding...

 

And I personally use a Meta-game concept of "You can't add more than you have" to MA with advantaged HA's so the MA would only add 2D6 max in games I run.....