Ship-Flipping for Evil Bricks

[Outsider]

Re: Ship-Flipping for Evil Bricks

 

Exactly. So worrying too much about physics at all is pretty silly. If you want it to take less than the STR required to lift the object, just make a ruling.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Ship-Flipping for Evil Bricks

 

Exactly. So worrying too much about physics at all is pretty silly. If you want it to take less than the STR required to lift the object' date=' just make a ruling.[/quote']

 

True. You could always just consider what your strongest PC is and make a dramatic ruling based on whether (s)he should be able to do it, or how (s)he should compare to this villain, or what kind of challenge the villain should present to the party, or whatever. And since the amount of force required, as I showed above, COULD vary anywhere from zero to the full weight of the ship, you can then arrange the physics to match the drama ("the freighter is top-heavy from its loading and enough weight shifted....") if you really get an argumentative player or something.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Ship-Flipping for Evil Bricks

 

Oh. There is one more thing very notable about shape. Say that our ship has a rectangular cross-section. In that case, as soon as the ship starts to tip from a LIFTING force, most likely it is going to tip up on the corner farthest from the lifter (sort of like it was sitting on hard ground), in which case the buoyant force shifts toward that corner (if it's the only place the water touches...) and torques have to be added up around that point instead of the center of the ship. In that case it's probably not going to matter much whether the C.G. is at water level or not; instead the lifting force will simply have to be about half the weight of the ship (assuming again that the ship is evenly loaded from left to right and the lifter pulls at one extreme edge).

 

So shape IS going to matter quite a bit. Flat-bottomed would PROBABLY tend to resist this kind of attack a bit better, though rounded ones could possibly be constructed deep enough to compete (like if the ship is deeper than a half-circle and capitalizes on it by REALLY loading toward the bottom and dropping that center of gravity).

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Ship-Flipping for Evil Bricks

 

what about coming from below and flipping it instead from above or the side?

or some kind of focused punch or large explosion?

 

thought being a sufficiently large underwater explosion or punch etc could snap the keel in effect and send it to the bottom instead, this idea comes from how some real torpedoes are supposed to work.

[Comic]

Re: Ship-Flipping for Evil Bricks

 

Ship engineering is an ancient art.

 

Ships have to use their engineered design cope with the STR of the ocean, which applies to every square minum of their hulls. In the case of a cruise ship, this STR is at least the 110 STR it takes to hold up the ship. One might even call this the ocean's casual STR.

 

And if the ocean is in a bad mood -- which I hear oceans can do -- it may PUSH.

 

And how often do you hear of a cruise ship being flipped by the ocean, really? So I'd rate the ship's STR applied against flipping by virtue of its engineering at 135 (110 + 10 for PUSH by ocean +15 to reduce the odds of flipping from even to under 3%) .

 

On the flip side //yes, I said it//, if the Brick (who may not be the ocean) has the Hoist or the Brick Tricks Power skill, or both, then he may counter the engineers' and ships pilots skill rolls and reduce the STR he needs to defeat the ship's design.

 

So, I'd say if we're being purely simulationist, having a minimum STR of 105 (half the STR needed to lift the vessel) and making a STR Roll against a difficulty of 9+135/5=36.

 

But if we're trying to build a balanced campaign with a ship-flipping Brick, I'd hope the Brick's pure STR doesn't exceed campaign guidelines (60? 75? 90? etc.) and the remainder of the STR comes from a McGuffin of suitable nature to allow heroic intervention.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ship-Flipping for Evil Bricks

 

Having practice capsizing sail craft, I can say with a decent amount of authority that you can capsize a boat with far less strength than is needed to hoist in in the air - since I can't even begin to lift a 20ft sailboat.

 

And yes - I capsized two boats on purpose, both as part of exercises on how to Right said sailboats in case they ever capsize without you helping them.

 

That said, capsizing a sailboat and capsizing an ocean liner are probably wholly different animals. But I would imagine the technique might be the same. In the case of a sail boat somewhere around the time the mast is below a 45 degree angle off the water (and I will note I've gotten an near 90 degree heel, so sail boats don't go over easily - at least while moving) a couple guys jump onto the mast to provide just that last bit of weight to capsize it wholly.

 

The trick is to get momentum on your side. Rock the boat hard and fast enough and eventually you can use both STR and Momentum in your favor to roll it over deck side down.

 

Doing it in one go - probably not anywhere as so be so easy, but as a general rule of thumb since we're already in fantasy land, no more than the maximum amount of STR needed to lift it would be needed to Capsize it. Just grab onto one side and keep pushing. . .

[SteveZilla]

Re: Ship-Flipping for Evil Bricks

 

Ship engineering is an ancient art.

 

Ships have to use their engineered design cope with the STR of the ocean, which applies to every square minum of their hulls. In the case of a cruise ship, this STR is at least the 110 STR it takes to hold up the ship. One might even call this the ocean's casual STR.

 

And if the ocean is in a bad mood -- which I hear oceans can do -- it may PUSH.

 

Not to mention Haymaker with a Rogue Wave.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ship-Flipping for Evil Bricks

 

Ship engineering is an ancient art.

 

Ships have to use their engineered design cope with the STR of the ocean, which applies to every square minum of their hulls. In the case of a cruise ship, this STR is at least the 110 STR it takes to hold up the ship. One might even call this the ocean's casual STR.

 

And if the ocean is in a bad mood -- which I hear oceans can do -- it may PUSH.

 

And how often do you hear of a cruise ship being flipped by the ocean, really? So I'd rate the ship's STR applied against flipping by virtue of its engineering at 135 (110 + 10 for PUSH by ocean +15 to reduce the odds of flipping from even to under 3%) .

 

On the flip side //yes, I said it//, if the Brick (who may not be the ocean) has the Hoist or the Brick Tricks Power skill, or both, then he may counter the engineers' and ships pilots skill rolls and reduce the STR he needs to defeat the ship's design.

 

So, I'd say if we're being purely simulationist, having a minimum STR of 105 (half the STR needed to lift the vessel) and making a STR Roll against a difficulty of 9+135/5=36.

 

But if we're trying to build a balanced campaign with a ship-flipping Brick, I'd hope the Brick's pure STR doesn't exceed campaign guidelines (60? 75? 90? etc.) and the remainder of the STR comes from a McGuffin of suitable nature to allow heroic intervention.

 

With a STR of 110 and even 1" of flight you could pick the thing up out of the water and drop it back in however you like, so I can't accept you need more than the STR to lift to flip.

 

However, what you said about the strength of the ocean and what ghost-angel said about requiring rocking got me thinking. Perhaps, with an appropriate DEX roll you can time your pushes on the side of the boat with the ocean swell and with any previous rocking motion you might have induced. If you can move it at all, let it go and wait for it to return almost tot he point you let it go then it is further out of balance each time. You might decide, for instance, that someone with, say, 60 STR can move the boat two hexes before the mass is too hard to move, but when he lets go it rocks and somes out 1 hex before returning again. With a DEX roll he can push again when it is already rocked 1 hex out of kilter, and so on, using the principle every child uses on a swing. Subject to having enough strength to rock the thing at all, it is then just a matter of time.

 

Of course, by the itme you got it over all the passengers would have been flung overboard or squashed flat in their cabins

[prestidigitator]

Re: Ship-Flipping for Evil Bricks

 

However' date=' what you said about the strength of the ocean and what ghost-angel said about requiring rocking got me thinking. Perhaps, with an appropriate DEX roll you can time your pushes on the side of the boat with the ocean swell and with any previous rocking motion you might have induced. If you can move it at all, let it go and wait for it to return almost tot he point you let it go then it is further out of balance each time.[/quote']

 

That's actually just the natural (resonant) oscillation I mentioned a ways up.

[Maur]

Re: Ship-Flipping for Evil Bricks

 

That's actually just the natural (resonant) oscillation I mentioned a ways up.

 

Yep. Same way one can shatter a glass with sound. Find the resonant frequency of the material and just pour on the dB.

[Comic]

Re: Ship-Flipping for Evil Bricks

 

Sure, lifting the thing out of the water (assuming it didn't break under the stress), and turning it upside down, or rocking it repeatedly could flip a ship.

 

Heck, I could flip a ship with the strength it takes to unscrew the lid on a bottle of Jack Daniels and hand it to the skipper, if I pick the right crew at night close enough to a rocky coastline.

 

But flipping a cruise ship in the water -- where the resistance of the water is an issue -- as a half phase action by strength? That's the hard way, and I stand by my estimate for the difficulty of doing it that way.

 

Taking more time or using other methods of course wouldn't require anything like that level of STR.

[Utech]

Re: Ship-Flipping for Evil Bricks

 

Rather than hunting for a particular STR value required to flip the ship, you might want to go with a STR Roll. The roll can be modified by appropriate Skills, time, good roleplaying, weather, etc. as well as the difficulty for flipping a cruise ship . . . call it -10?

[SteveZilla]

Re: Ship-Flipping for Evil Bricks

 

That's actually just the natural (resonant) oscillation I mentioned a ways up.

 

It strikes me that for large ships that sit deep in the water with an flattened bottom (see picture), any rocking motion is dampened by the water itself. The larget the ship's bottom, the more water it has to push out of the way as it rights itself, causing the motion to be dampened.

 

Or is this line of thinking all wet?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ship-Flipping for Evil Bricks

 

I think your sig might have the answer: we don't need to worry too much aboutt he right answer, we just need an answer that is going to keep everyone round the table reasonably satisfied (good job WE'RE not round the table ) Reality and game reality need not intersect so long as the bubble of disbelief suspension remains unburst.

 

That's an interesting point. I wonder how big the bubble has to be to suspend your disbelief, and, indeed, what strength you would need to flip it...

[lemming]

Re: Ship-Flipping for Evil Bricks

 

Sean has a very good point. What's the fun value? And hopefully at the table, there's agreement.

 

And different ships have very different values for flipping. I think cruise ships would be more difficult because IIRC, they're designed to not rock very much.