Help with the Regeneration Power?

[phookz]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

That isn't a build. It is optional rules, with required Advantages and Limitations. Were it to be a sample build, it would be complete, like all of the other ones in the book. It would have an Active Cost and a Real Cost associated with it. As it is, it has neither.

 

And I still don't see what isn't internally consistent about Regeneration.

 

Looks like a build that doesn't completely specify every part of it. If not why require the advantages and limitations at all? And that is what is not internally consistent.

[archermoo]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Looks like a build that doesn't completely specify every part of it. If not why require the advantages and limitations at all? And that is what is not internally consistent.

 

So the fact that there are rules that require specific Advantages and Limitations is what isn't internally consistent? What is it not internally consistent with?

 

It isn't a build. It is a set of rules requiring certain Advantages and Limitations to be used with a Power. Much like Hand Attack requires a specific Limitation. To your mind is Hand Attack a build too?

 

A build is a example power that shows one way of getting a specific effect. On the other hand the rules for Regeneration contain a requirement that certain Advantages and Limitations always be used when buying a Power using the Regeneration variant of Healing. Those don't sound like very similar situations to me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

That isn't what I said. What I said was that there are optional rules for Regeneration that modify the baseline Healing. So had you actually started with what I said' date=' your question would've answered itself. Obviously Regeneration was put in Healing because it is a modification of Healing.[/quote']

 

I apologise for my inaccurate paraphrasing, although I might argue, on my own part, that the rules for regeneration are not the rules for healing. The system is set up to modify baseline powers, but the generally accepted way to do it is with advantages and limitations. It seems to me that if you are modifying the baseline power without an advantage or limitation then you are creating a completely seperate power, where ever you might choose to print it in the book.

 

Now if we assume that the rules are right, then anything in the rules is also right and the choice to put regeneration in the description of healing is right too. However, if we assume an entitlement to comment, and, in commenting, express our views that the rules are wrong, by which we mean that we would not have done it that way, often supported by cogent argument, then to argue that there is nothing wrong with rtegeneration because it is a modification of the base healing power, perhaps, does not take us much further forward.

 

Those suggesting that the rule is wrong are not saying the printers made an error, but Steve shouldn't have done it that way. Personally I think that if Hero needs to create special rules to make particular constructs work and those rules have no general applicability then that damages the concept that underlies, to me, the whole game - that the parts of the game are constructed from principles, even if they are not always immediately obvious.

 

If Regeneration is to be a part of the healing power, then it should use the rules for healing, as modified by advantages and limitations that follow the principles of the rest of the game and are not special cases.

 

Of course every power in the book is arbitrary to an extent - someone made it up at some point, but I like to think that it was done with reference tot he other parts of the game.

 

The thing that gets the goat of many, with regeneration, is that it was removed as a seperate power, then put into healing with its own rules (which is pretty much the definition of a seperate power) and a bunch of required advantages and limitaitons. It took a simple construct and made it complex without the redeeming grace that this happened because it was logically based on another power. By my definition, and I suspect that of many others, regeneration is simply a new baseline power, requiring a lot more effort, not really a modification of healing at all.

[archermoo]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

I apologise for my inaccurate paraphrasing, although I might argue, on my own part, that the rules for regeneration are not the rules for healing. The system is set up to modify baseline powers, but the generally accepted way to do it is with advantages and limitations. It seems to me that if you are modifying the baseline power without an advantage or limitation then you are creating a completely seperate power, where ever you might choose to print it in the book.

 

Now if we assume that the rules are right, then anything in the rules is also right and the choice to put regeneration in the description of healing is right too. However, if we assume an entitlement to comment, and, in commenting, express our views that the rules are wrong, by which we mean that we would not have done it that way, often supported by cogent argument, then to argue that there is nothing wrong with rtegeneration because it is a modification of the base healing power, perhaps, does not take us much further forward.

 

Those suggesting that the rule is wrong are not saying the printers made an error, but Steve shouldn't have done it that way. Personally I think that if Hero needs to create special rules to make particular constructs work and those rules have no general applicability then that damages the concept that underlies, to me, the whole game - that the parts of the game are constructed from principles, even if they are not always immediately obvious.

 

If Regeneration is to be a part of the healing power, then it should use the rules for healing, as modified by advantages and limitations that follow the principles of the rest of the game and are not special cases.

 

Of course every power in the book is arbitrary to an extent - someone made it up at some point, but I like to think that it was done with reference tot he other parts of the game.

 

The thing that gets the goat of many, with regeneration, is that it was removed as a seperate power, then put into healing with its own rules (which is pretty much the definition of a seperate power) and a bunch of required advantages and limitaitons. It took a simple construct and made it complex without the redeeming grace that this happened because it was logically based on another power. By my definition, and I suspect that of many others, regeneration is simply a new baseline power, requiring a lot more effort, not really a modification of healing at all.

 

I don't share your binary POV on powers. If 2 powers are not identical, that does not automatically mean that they are totally unrelated. For Regeneration to be a completely separate power, it would have to share none of the rules with Healing. Since it works like Healing except for a few noted exceptions, obviously it isn't a completely separate power.

 

As I've said on numerous occasions, I don't have any issue with people expressing that they feel it should've been done differently. I only have an issue with people claiming that it is breaking the rules, when it is in fact PART of the rules.

 

And the Hero rules are peppered with special cases. Some Advantages cost more if they are applied to some Powers. Some Modifiers have entirely different effects depending on what Powers they are applied to. Regeneration is no different in this. It is a special case of Healing. An optional variant that for the most part works like normal Healing, but with some clearly outlined differences.

 

"I think Regeneration should be a separate Power", and "I think Regeneration was handled poorly" are perfectly reasonable arguments. "Regeneration breaks the rules" and "Regeneration wasn't done correctly" aren't. The first is factually incorrect (it least as "rules" refers to the Hero System 5th edition rules), and the second is at best a matter of opinion.

 

Edit: Oh, and since Regeneration isn't the only optional variant on a Power, I presume that you object to Succor not being its own separate power as well?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

I don't share your binary POV on powers. If 2 powers are not identical, that does not automatically mean that they are totally unrelated. For Regeneration to be a completely separate power, it would have to share none of the rules with Healing. Since it works like Healing except for a few noted exceptions, obviously it isn't a completely separate power.

 

As I've said on numerous occasions, I don't have any issue with people expressing that they feel it should've been done differently. I only have an issue with people claiming that it is breaking the rules, when it is in fact PART of the rules.

 

And the Hero rules are peppered with special cases. Some Advantages cost more if they are applied to some Powers. Some Modifiers have entirely different effects depending on what Powers they are applied to. Regeneration is no different in this. It is a special case of Healing. An optional variant that for the most part works like normal Healing, but with some clearly outlined differences.

 

"I think Regeneration should be a separate Power", and "I think Regeneration was handled poorly" are perfectly reasonable arguments. "Regeneration breaks the rules" and "Regeneration wasn't done correctly" aren't. The first is factually incorrect (it least as "rules" refers to the Hero System 5th edition rules), and the second is at best a matter of opinion.

 

My view of powers is binary? I'll have to think about that. However, there are plenty of powers that share a lot of characteristics without being part of the same power - most of the adjustment powers in the book share principles and, with only a little tinkering, could be made pretty much interchangeable but they are built as seperate powers because it is easier to use them and understand them that way. IIRC, 'healing' used to be a variant on aid with a power modifier that removed the fade at the cost of not being able to exceed your normal maximum characteristic.

 

There are an awful lot of powers that share some common characteristics but are (quite properly IMO) sperate powers - attack powers - defence powers - sense affecting powers - any of the major groupings.

 

As to the rest, I understand that the phrasing of people's objections is something that you have an issue with, but many people will say 'this breaks the rules' when they mean that it contradicts principles (real or imagined) in the game. Maybe you and they are not talking about the same rules being broken; whilst you are quite right, if the rule is that regeneration works that way, it is not broken with respect to the specific rule, but the rule that ALLOWS regeneration to be that way can still be considered broken with reference to the principles of the system. You also have to accept that in a discussion board like this, not everyone uses there language precisely: everything said here is an opinion, expressly or imlpiedly, so picking people up on the way they express themselves can be unhelpful.

 

Finally, whilst I acknowledge that there are numerous special case rules in the game (ignoring for the moment the notion that EVERY rule and power is a special case), we should not encourage this approach. It is fragmentary and exponentially increases the level of complexity of the system. As much as we can we should strive for a system that allows you to build anything you can imagine from basic principles.

 

In my opinion.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

As I've said on numerous occasions' date=' I don't have any issue with people expressing that they feel it should've been done differently. I only have an issue with people claiming that it is breaking the rules, when it is in fact PART of the rules.[/quote']

 

I just checked. CTaylor was the first person in this thread to use the phrase "break the rules," and he only used the phrase once. You're the only other one on the entire thread who is arguing the notion that Regeneration is "breaking the rules".

 

Edit: Oh' date=' and since Regeneration isn't the only optional variant on a Power, I presume that you object to Succor not being its own separate power as well?[/quote']

 

Since you asked: Per the Hero Games writer's guidelines, all Succor Powers are written up using the form "Succor Xd6". All Regeneration Powers are written up using the form "Healing Xd6 (Regeneration X BODY per Turn)". From this (among other things) I infer that Succor is a separate Power, different from Aid, and Regeneration is not a separate Power.

 

Every official build of both Succor and Regeneration I have seen follows this rule.

[archermoo]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

I just checked. CTaylor was the first person in this thread to use the phrase "break the rules' date='" and he only used the phrase once. You're the only other one on the entire thread who is arguing the notion that Regeneration is "breaking the rules". [/quote']

 

I've seen the term used in threads other than this one.

 

Since you asked: Per the Hero Games writer's guidelines, all Succor Powers are written up using the form "Succor Xd6". All Regeneration Powers are written up using the form "Healing Xd6 (Regeneration X BODY per Turn)". From this (among other things) I infer that Succor is a separate Power, different from Aid, and Regeneration is not a separate Power.

 

Every official build of both Succor and Regeneration I have seen follows this rule.

 

There is no difference in how they are presented within the rules. They are both optional forms of a base Power, both work substantially like the base power, with modifications noted in the optional rule section. For neither one are the changes made to the base Power done with a Modifier of any kind. The only difference is in how the folks at Hero decided to note them when writing them up for publication, which is something that doesn't even appear in the rules.

 

Personally, as I don't do any writing for Hero, I'm not overly concerned with how they format their NPCs and Power examples. If it doesn't have its own entry in the Powers section, it isn't a separate Power.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

I've seen the term used in threads other than this one.

 

CTaylor again, here and here.

[archermoo]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

CTaylor again' date=' here and here.

 

I wasn't accusing you of anything. I got into the discussion for the reason I mentioned. I have since been replying to posts that were responses to my posts. What can I say, I like a good discussion.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

I wasn't accusing you of anything. I got into the discussion for the reason I mentioned. I have since been replying to posts that were responses to my posts. What can I say' date=' I like a good discussion. [/quote']

 

True.

 

In fact 'a good discussion' is the reason many of us are here. I think it was about 3 years after I started on these boards I actually found out what 'The Hero System' is...

[archermoo]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

True.

 

In fact 'a good discussion' is the reason many of us are here. I think it was about 3 years after I started on these boards I actually found out what 'The Hero System' is...

 

Eh, I don't argue for the sake of arguing, but in general I'll respond when someone responds to me.