Help with the Regeneration Power?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Regeneration isn't a build.

 

It is a build. It is specifically a build of Healing. When you build a Regeneration Power, you don't write down X BODY Regeneration. You write down Xd6 Healing with a large string of Modifiers.

 

My issue isn't whether or not Regeneration should have or could have been built differently. My issue is people ignoring the rules to claim that it somehow breaks the rules. It doesn't break the rules any more than any other section of rules breaks the rules. Yes, it doesn't work like baseline Healing. It isn't supposed to.

 

Then it should be a different Power.

 

Or it should take advantage of the rules that are already there for Healing (namely, the reset time Advantage).

 

But why require it to be built with Healing if it doesn't work like Healing?

[archermoo]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

It is a build. It is specifically a build of Healing. When you build a Regeneration Power' date=' you don't write down X BODY Regeneration. You write down Xd6 Healing with a large string of Modifiers. [/quote']

 

No, it isn't. It is a set of optional rules that modifies how the Healing power works.

 

Then it should be a different Power.

 

Or it should take advantage of the rules that are already there for Healing (namely, the reset time Advantage).

 

Do you honestly not understand that the optional Regeneration rules modify how Healing works? Because it sounds like that is what you are saying. And if that is the case, then I'm not sure how much plainer it could be. The Regeneration section of the Healing rules includes rules changes. Changes that only apply to the Regeneration variant of Healing. Changes that modify how the Healing Power works WRT the Regeneration variant.

 

But why require it to be built with Healing if it doesn't work like Healing?

 

Because it does for the most part work like Healing. There are some changes to how it works, which are spelled out in the rules governing the optional Regeneration variant. I'm guessing that Steve decided that rather than reprint all of the rules and explanations that were the same between Healing and Regeneration for both Powers that it would make more sense to just include a section in the Healing Power outlining the changes needed to turn Healing into Regeneration.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Do you honestly not understand that the optional Regeneration rules modify how Healing works? Because it sounds like that is what you are saying. And if that is the case' date=' then I'm not sure how much plainer it could be. The Regeneration section of the Healing rules includes rules changes. Changes that only apply to the Regeneration variant of Healing. Changes that modify how the Healing Power works WRT the Regeneration variant.[/quote']

 

I understand that that's how it works, and I understand that it works that way because Steve says it does. I don't think that there was a good reason to put Regeneration under Healing, and to just say that it works differently by fiat, especially because, again by fiat, it only works this particular way for BODY, and only for a Regeneration Power built to Regenerate only the self's BODY.

 

Because it does for the most part work like Healing.

 

There's several very specific ways in that it doesn't work like Healing:

 

• Regeneration has no maximum
  
• Regeneration always and only works on BODY
  
• Regeneration always and only works on the self
  
• Regeneration works no more than once per Turn
  

 

None of these are qualities possessed by Healing. It is specified that if you buy Healing with the latter three qualities as the appropriate Modifiers, you somehow get the first one. Why? Because Steve said so. There's no point cost for it.

 

You're not allowed to buy a Regeneration that affects anything other that BODY, and you're not allowed to buy a Regeneration that works on someone else, and you're not allowed to buy a Regeneration that works every Phase. There's no way to buy up the maximum of Healing [1]; in fact we're given numerous reasons why being able to buy up the Healing maximum is a bad idea. There are good reasons for all of these, admittedly, but if you have a good concept that would call for doing it otherwise? The answer is no, because Steve said so.

 

Regeneration is qualitatively better than Healing. Yet there's nowhere at all in the rules that it is possible to buy this qualitative difference. It applies to BODY, the self, and no faster than once per Turn, and specifically these and nothing else. You can't build Stun Regeneration. You can't build END Regeneration. You can't build any Power that grants a Regeneration ability to someone else (per a specific rules question I asked Steve a few months ago).

 

[1] Between 5e and 5er the way Healing worked was officially changed to have a "reset time". Regeneration is not built with this mechanic. Actually, by using the Advantage to reduce a Healing ability's reset time, you could build Stun Regeneration, or END Regeneration, or any number of other Regenerations, or Regeneration that works on other people -- except for BODY Regeneration, which must be built in this specific, exact way.

[archermoo]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

I understand that that's how it works' date=' and I understand that it works that way because Steve says it does. I don't think that there was a good reason to put Regeneration under Healing, and to just say that it works differently by fiat, especially because, again by fiat, it only works this particular way for BODY, and only for a Regeneration Power built to Regenerate only the self's BODY. [/quote']

 

All rules in the system exist by fiat. Energy Blast does 1d6 per 5 Points by fiat. You need to roll 11- on 3d6 after modifications to hit your target by fiat. Combat Luck 3pd/3ed Hardened by fiat.

 

In a rules system there is no difference between "by fiat" and "by the rules". The rules are what they are because the person who wrote them decided they should be. That is true both for the rules you like as well as the rules you don't like.

 

Now whether it is a good idea or not is an entirely different issue. I tend to side with Doc Democracy in thinking that basing Regeneration on Recovery would be a better idea. But that doesn't make the current Regeneration somehow a violation of the rules. They are part of the rules, and no more or less valid than any other rule.

[Vulcan]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

There's several very specific ways in that it doesn't work like Healing:

 

• Regeneration has no maximum
  
• Regeneration always and only works on BODY
  
• Regeneration always and only works on the self
  
• Regeneration works no more than once per Turn
  

None of these are qualities possessed by Healing. It is specified that if you buy Healing with the latter three qualities as the appropriate Modifiers, you somehow get the first one. Why? Because Steve said so. There's no point cost for it.

 

I agree with you so far, 5E Regen is a bit of a kludge. Not totally unusable, mind you, just a kludge.

 

You're not allowed to buy a Regeneration that affects anything other that BODY,

 

For good reason. Imagine Regen to END at 8 points per die. Total nightmare.

 

...and you're not allowed to buy a Regeneration that works on someone else,

 

unless your GM lets you apply UBO

 

...and you're not allowed to buy a Regeneration that works every Phase.

 

Unless you buy Regen to equal your SPD and your GM allows you to pro-rate it.

 

There's no way to buy up the maximum of Healing [1];

 

There isn't? I thought it used the standard 1pt = +2 max AP rule for adjustment powers.

 

...in fact we're given numerous reasons why being able to buy up the Healing maximum is a bad idea. There are good reasons for all of these, admittedly, but if you have a good concept that would call for doing it otherwise? The answer is no, because Steve said so.

 

Unless the GM says yes.

 

Regeneration is qualitatively better than Healing. Yet there's nowhere at all in the rules that it is possible to buy this qualitative difference. It applies to BODY, the self, and no faster than once per Turn, and specifically these and nothing else. You can't build Stun Regeneration.

 

You want STUN Regeneration? People already complain about how long combat takes!

 

You can't build END Regeneration.

 

You want END Regeneration!? Player: "I push again!" GM: "Aren't you running low on END yet?" Player: "Nope, I Regen 4d6 END per Turn on top of my REC, and it's phase 2" GM:

 

You can't build any Power that grants a Regeneration ability to someone else (per a specific rules question I asked Steve a few months ago).

 

Again, unless the GM thinks otherwise. Unlikely, sure, but possible.

 

[1] Between 5e and 5er the way Healing worked was officially changed to have a "reset time". Regeneration is not built with this mechanic. Actually, by using the Advantage to reduce a Healing ability's reset time, you could build Stun Regeneration, or END Regeneration, or any number of other Regenerations, or Regeneration that works on other people -- except for BODY Regeneration, which must be built in this specific, exact way.

 

Got me there.

[Tonio]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

All rules in the system exist by fiat. Energy Blast does 1d6 per 5 Points by fiat. You need to roll 11- on 3d6 after modifications to hit your target by fiat. Combat Luck 3pd/3ed Hardened by fiat.

 

In a rules system there is no difference between "by fiat" and "by the rules". The rules are what they are because the person who wrote them decided they should be. That is true both for the rules you like as well as the rules you don't like.

 

I do think there's a difference between "EB costs 5ps per 1d6" and "Healing works like so, except when it's Regeneration". The former creates a rule where there was none, while the latter modifies an existing rule. From an extreme point of view, they're both "fiat", yes, but there are degrees of fiat (so to speak).

 

The reason, I think, Regeneration bothers a lot of people is the same reason why some people are bothered by the Armor vs FF deal (the one where you get free IPE from Armor, or no Limitation from Visible for FF, depending on PoV). When you buy Healing with this particular combination of options, you get something "free" (or at a reduced cost) out of it. The reason, I think, why the Regeneration issue comes up more often is that Armor and FF are split as two different Powers, while Regeneration is presented as an optional variant of Healing. I believe if Armor were presented as an optional variant of FF (when you buy 0 END and Persistent for your FF, you get a free IPE), people would bring the issue up more often.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

All rules in the system exist by fiat. Energy Blast does 1d6 per 5 Points by fiat. You need to roll 11- on 3d6 after modifications to hit your target by fiat. Combat Luck 3pd/3ed Hardened by fiat.

 

In a rules system there is no difference between "by fiat" and "by the rules". The rules are what they are because the person who wrote them decided they should be. That is true both for the rules you like as well as the rules you don't like.

 

Right. All of the fiat is at a lower, more fundamental level of the rules. Regeneration is a fiat at a level where it should be a Modifier.

 

Had it been this way from the beginning, we might not now be having this conversation -- but there was a conscious choice to fold Regeneration into Healing from 4e to 5e.

 

 

For good reason. Imagine Regen to END at 8 points per die. Total nightmare.

 

I can imagine someone having a valid concept that calls for them to Regenerate END. I'd look pretty closely at it as GM, but I wouldn't say no to the concept.

 

Unfortunately, the rules don't support the concept.

 

 

unless your GM lets you apply UBO

 

The GM can let you do anything he wants, but the rules are pretty firm. Nope, nope, and nope.

 

There isn't? I thought it used the standard 1pt = +2 max AP rule for adjustment powers.

 

It doesn't.

 

Unless the GM says yes.

 

Again, the GM can say yes to anything.

 

Again, unless the GM thinks otherwise. Unlikely, sure, but possible.

 

See nope, nope, and nope, above.

 

Regeneration works the way it does because that's how the rules define it.

 

Right. It doesn't work the way it does because you bought the Regeneration Modifier for your Healing; it works the way it does because that's how it works.

[Vulcan]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

I think this discussion has gotten a bit far afield from the original question. Right now, we're debating how Regen should work, which is a discussion we really should be having in the 6E threads so Steve & Co can go over them.

 

I know Steve said he's not going back to the old rules on Regen. So let's come up with some new rules for Regen that work better.

[archermoo]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Right. All of the fiat is at a lower' date=' more fundamental level of the rules. Regeneration is a fiat at a level where it should be a Modifier. [/quote']

 

In your opinion. Your opinion isn't universal.

 

Had it been this way from the beginning, we might not now be having this conversation -- but there was a conscious choice to fold Regeneration into Healing from 4e to 5e.

 

First you say that it is at a level that should be handled by a Modifier, then you say that if it had be written as is from the beginning it would be okay.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

In your opinion. Your opinion isn't universal.

 

I never said otherwise. I'm not sure how that's relevant.

 

First you say that it is at a level that should be handled by a Modifier, then you say that if it had be written as is from the beginning it would be okay.

 

No, I said that we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

I think this discussion has gotten a bit far afield from the original question. Right now' date=' we're debating how Regen [i']should[/i] work, which is a discussion we really should be having in the 6E threads so Steve & Co can go over them.

 

You are correct. We're not answering anybody's question any longer; we've staked out positions and are defending them.

[archermoo]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

I never said otherwise. I'm not sure how that's relevant.

 

Well you seemed to be making the claim that the Regeneration rules were somehow less valid than the other rules in the game. I don't see how that is the case. The opinions of the people who play the game don't really have much impact on the validity of any of the rules.

 

If you aren't making the claim that they are less valid (or "breaking" the rules as others have claimed) then there isn't really anything to talk about. You don't like the changes to Regeneration. No skin off my nose. I've only ever objected to people making claims about them not being valid rules.

 

No' date=' I said that we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. [/quote']

 

Very true. So if you didn't mean that it would be okay, then what did you mean by that statement? That you wouldn't object to them even if you didn't think they were okay?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Well you seemed to be making the claim that the Regeneration rules were somehow less valid than the other rules in the game. I don't see how that is the case. The opinions of the people who play the game don't really have much impact on the validity of any of the rules.

 

If you aren't making the claim that they are less valid (or "breaking" the rules as others have claimed) then there isn't really anything to talk about. You don't like the changes to Regeneration. No skin off my nose. I've only ever objected to people making claims about them not being valid rules.

 

No. I'm saying there's not a mechanical basis for them.

 

Fiat is not a mechanic.

 

I could buy a Healing BODY Power with 0 END, Persistent, Self Only, and Extra Time Modifiers, and have a somewhat uselessly limited Healing Power. Or I could buy the same thing with some hypothetical, undefined Regeneration Modifier, and suddenly it's Regeneration. The only difference between these two Powers is that one is Regeneration and one is not.

 

What I want is to have this Regeneration Modifier defined in some way. If Regeneration must be built using Healing, I want there to be some mechanical difference applied to it to turn it from straight Healing, with all of its particulars, to Regeneration. To me, fiat does not do that, and, judging by the amount of bandwidth devoted to it over the years, I'm not the only one.

[schir1964]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Most of the debate is a result of philosophical difference as to the Definition Of A Mechanic.

 

I've created a thread that asks for people to give their viewpoint on that Definition.

 

If anyone is interested, I'd like to see those viewpoints.

 

[thread=67214]Philosophical: Definition Of A Mechanic[/thread]

 

Just Curious

 

- Christopher Mullins

[archermoo]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

No. I'm saying there's not a mechanical basis for them.

 

Fiat is not a mechanic.

 

I could buy a Healing BODY Power with 0 END, Persistent, Self Only, and Extra Time Modifiers, and have a somewhat uselessly limited Healing Power. Or I could buy the same thing with some hypothetical, undefined Regeneration Modifier, and suddenly it's Regeneration. The only difference between these two Powers is that one is Regeneration and one is not.

 

What I want is to have this Regeneration Modifier defined in some way. If Regeneration must be built using Healing, I want there to be some mechanical difference applied to it to turn it from straight Healing, with all of its particulars, to Regeneration. To me, fiat does not do that, and, judging by the amount of bandwidth devoted to it over the years, I'm not the only one.

 

There is as much mechanical basis for the way that Regeneration works as there is for how the baseline Healing Power works. Both work how they do because there are rules defining how they work. The fact that you don't like that there are rules specific to Regeneration doesn't mean that they stop existing.

 

It sounds like what you don't like is powers having variants that are defined by rules rather than Modifiers. Is that an accurate assessment?

 

And yes, by defining a Healing based Power as Regeneration it changes how it works. That is in fact the point of having variants of Powers. If you are using that variant, it works differently than the base.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Archermoo is right: the rules for regeneration are not the rules for healing. That leaves open the question, of course: why put regeneration in healing?

 

Oh, and Fiat are mechanics

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Energy Blast and Killing Attack are two separate Powers.

 

Would you be happier if Regeneration were a Talent built using (and modifying) the Healing rules, rather than a modification of the Healing rules? I'm just curious whether that alone would solve the problem.

 

Similarly, does it bother you to the same extent that Succor is listed as a variant of Aid, rather than a power in its own right? The two situations seem much the same - "here's a very different variant of the power but it's not really a separate power but it really is".

 

It's been mentioned that the Regeneration build should have used the Reset Time Modifier from Fantasy Hero and 5er' date=' with some speculation as to why that wasn't done. I'm on record in the past (in this thread) stating that it should have been done this way.

 

I'll hold you to that...

 

I agree with you so far' date=' 5E Regen is a bit of a kludge. Not totally unusable, mind you, just a kludge.[/quote']

 

It was a kludge. Decreased re-use would un-kludge it.

 

For good reason. Imagine Regen to END at 8 points per die. Total nightmare.

 

Is it? The ability to recover 8 END could reasonably be purchased as +8 REC, does not recover STUN (-1), does not recover BOD (-1/4) for 7 points. And I could use it more than once a turn by taking extra recoveries.

 

STUN Regen would be less cost effective compared to REC, but would have the advantage of circumventing the inability to recover per turn at substantial negative STUN.

 

No. I'm saying there's not a mechanical basis for them.

 

Fiat is not a mechanic.

 

Sean said it first, and I can't say it better...

 

Oh' date=' and Fiat are [i']mechanics[/i]

 

What I want is to have this Regeneration Modifier defined in some way. If Regeneration must be built using Healing' date=' I want there to be some mechanical difference applied to it to turn it from straight Healing, with all of its particulars, to Regeneration. To me, fiat does not do that, and, judging by the amount of bandwidth devoted to it over the years, I'm not the only one.[/quote']

 

2 CP is 2/3 of 1d6 of standard effect, so I present - mechanically sound regeneration:

 

2/3d6 Healing, Standard Effect (2 points) 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), reuse 1/turn (+1 1/2) AP [10 x 2/3 x 3.5 =] 23 Extra Time 1 turn (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2) Real Cost 8

 

You want it usable to heal others? Persuade your GM to allow it without "self only". You want it to work slower? Drop the Reuse advantage and bump the Extra Time limitation. You want it per phase? Drop the Extra Time limitation and buy a higher reuse advantage. You want it to cost END? Dump O END, Persistent. You want it to heal STUN? Make it heal STUN. You want to regenerate everything? Add a +2 advantage "everything below starting maximum".

 

I'm not saying GM's will allow those builds- that's up to them. But mechanically, this now appears to follow all the rules. And rejection of powers that follow all the rules is within the GM's purview.

[archermoo]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Archermoo is right: the rules for regeneration are not the rules for healing. That leaves open the question, of course: why put regeneration in healing?

 

Oh, and Fiat are mechanics

 

That isn't what I said. What I said was that there are optional rules for Regeneration that modify the baseline Healing. So had you actually started with what I said, your question would've answered itself. Obviously Regeneration was put in Healing because it is a modification of Healing.

[CTaylor]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

The Decreased Reuse modifier, while logically applicable, would have increased the price significantly.

 

Obviously Regeneration was put in Healing because it is a modification of Healing.

 

And by that logic, Multiform is a modification of transform. Except is isn't. You are continually arguing using a logical fallacy called "begging the question:" you assume the conclusion in your argument. Saying "it's that way because it is" isn't an argument. It's something the Sphinx would say.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

The Decreased Reuse modifier' date=' while logically applicable, would have increased the price significantly.[/quote']

 

Actually, it wouldn't. But it did not exist in 5e, making it tough to apply in 5e. To repeat:

 

2 CP is 2/3 of 1d6 of standard effect, so I present - mechanically sound regeneration:

 

2/3d6 Healing, Standard Effect (2 points) 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), reuse 1/turn (+1 1/2) AP [10 x 2/3 x 3.5 =] 23 Extra Time 1 turn (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2) Real Cost 8

[archermoo]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

The Decreased Reuse modifier, while logically applicable, would have increased the price significantly.

 

Obviously Regeneration was put in Healing because it is a modification of Healing.

 

And by that logic, Multiform is a modification of transform. Except is isn't. You are continually arguing using a logical fallacy called "begging the question:" you assume the conclusion in your argument. Saying "it's that way because it is" isn't an argument. It's something the Sphinx would say.

 

I was specifically addressing Sean's misquotation of my statement. I wasn't arguing that overall it made more sense to have Regeneration part of Healing. I was pointing out that I didn't say that Regeneration had entirely different rules than Healing, but that the current iteration of Regeneration uses the Healing rules with some modifications. That being the case, putting it anywhere but with the Healing rules wouldn't make any sense.

 

I've got no problems with people making cases for Regeneration being done differently. I would just prefer that they not misrepresent my statements to provide support for their position.

[phookz]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

The Decreased Reuse modifier, while logically applicable, would have increased the price significantly.

 

Obviously Regeneration was put in Healing because it is a modification of Healing.

 

And by that logic, Multiform is a modification of transform. Except is isn't. You are continually arguing using a logical fallacy called "begging the question:" you assume the conclusion in your argument. Saying "it's that way because it is" isn't an argument. It's something the Sphinx would say.

 

Actually, since HERO Games is the owner and creator of the HERO System, however they choose to write the rules are the rules. If they decided that Regeneration was a modification of Change Environment for 6e and put it in there, the statement "Obviously Regeneration was put in Change Environment because it is a modification of Change Environment" would be true. It would be true because they are writing the rules and get to decide what is and is not a modification of some other power.

 

Having said that, it would not be internally consistent. I don't want to put words in people's mouths, but I believe that is what people mean when they say it is "broken" or "fiat". It isn't internally consistent now. It is more consistent than it would be if it were put in Change Environment, but it's still not internally consistent.

 

Regeneration isn't a build. It is a set of optional rules for changing how Healing works. Regardless of how many times it gets referred to as either a build or a sample power it won't change the fact that that isn't what it is. It is a set of optional rules that is based off of Healing, but makes some significant changes to the Healing rules.

 

I believe it is both a build and optional rules.

 

Regeneration is bought with the Reduced Endurance (0 END) and Persistent Advantages, and must take the Limitations Extra Time (1 Turn; -1 1/4) and Self Only (-1/2) (it can take other Limitations as appropriate, such as only working [or not working] against a certain type of BODY damage).

 

If it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck...

 

Sure looks like a build to me. I'm sure someone will chime in that just because it looks like a build doesn't mean it is a build, but if you have to buy advantages and apply limitations to it, it is being built.

 

I can understand the logical desire to put Regeneration in the Healing power - it seems to behave, in some ways, like healing. But it is fundamentally different from Healing, and because of that and the way that it is built (yes, built, because that's what it is) it is tripping people up. It doesn't fit. It smells bad. It is not internally consistent.

 

It is also far more complicated now than it used to be, and for no benefit other than making it part of a power it shares very little in common with.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

It's internally consistent on the point that Healing (and Regeneration by extension) are the Adjustment Power to use when you need to "Restore a Power or Characteristic To Starting Value After They Have Been Reduced"

 

Healing: Energy Blast would work on an EB that has been Drained, Transferred, Suppressed, or otherwise reduced below starting value.

 

Regeneration just does it only to the Body Characteristic.

 

I contest the issue isn't with where Regeneration is, but the way it has been phrased.

[phookz]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

It's internally consistent on the point that Healing (and Regeneration by extension) are the Adjustment Power to use when you need to "Restore a Power or Characteristic To Starting Value After They Have Been Reduced"

 

That's a very good point; it is consistent in that regard.

 

I contest the issue isn't with where Regeneration is, but the way it has been phrased.

 

I don't personally have a big problem with it, but it is annoying the way it is written up (basically I agree with you ). I would personally prefer either to see it as either a separate power entirely or as an optional variant of Healing but forgoe the build mechanics. It is the fact that it is built, but with restrictions on how it must be built, that I have the biggest issue with and is IMO not internally consistent.

[archermoo]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Actually, since HERO Games is the owner and creator of the HERO System, however they choose to write the rules are the rules. If they decided that Regeneration was a modification of Change Environment for 6e and put it in there, the statement "Obviously Regeneration was put in Change Environment because it is a modification of Change Environment" would be true. It would be true because they are writing the rules and get to decide what is and is not a modification of some other power.

 

Having said that, it would not be internally consistent. I don't want to put words in people's mouths, but I believe that is what people mean when they say it is "broken" or "fiat". It isn't internally consistent now. It is more consistent than it would be if it were put in Change Environment, but it's still not internally consistent.

 

 

 

I believe it is both a build and optional rules.

 

 

 

If it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck...

 

Sure looks like a build to me. I'm sure someone will chime in that just because it looks like a build doesn't mean it is a build, but if you have to buy advantages and apply limitations to it, it is being built.

 

I can understand the logical desire to put Regeneration in the Healing power - it seems to behave, in some ways, like healing. But it is fundamentally different from Healing, and because of that and the way that it is built (yes, built, because that's what it is) it is tripping people up. It doesn't fit. It smells bad. It is not internally consistent.

 

It is also far more complicated now than it used to be, and for no benefit other than making it part of a power it shares very little in common with.

 

That isn't a build. It is optional rules, with required Advantages and Limitations. Were it to be a sample build, it would be complete, like all of the other ones in the book. It would have an Active Cost and a Real Cost associated with it. As it is, it has neither.

 

And I still don't see what isn't internally consistent about Regeneration.