Help with the Regeneration Power?

[Vulcan]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Thanks for gettin my back Vulcan that's what I meant!

 

No prob.

[Vulcan]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Like I said' date=' it doesn't bother you, good for you. You asked why it's a problem to so many people and I explained it. You apparently disagree with the reasons, but that's why people are displeased with the system. I hope Steve takes a different position on this than you - in fact I hope he bends on his "I won't even discuss the matter despite claiming to be open to anything" position regarding Regen and Instant Change.[/quote']

 

I'm posting relavent parts of this thread on the 6E discussion under R.

 

Personally, I don't see any problem with it as-it. It is in the Healing rules, yes, but it is one of three separate listings under the 'Options for Healing' header. So, if a GM doesn't like Regeneration (or Simplified Healing, or Flash Healing) he can simply disallow it. Or he can require the character actually buy up the amount of BODY the Regeneration can heal. Or require he buy Continuous, or Trigger, or any other advantage he wants. It is just there as a suggestion.

 

On the other hand, I think that Regeneration is an important enough power that it should have an official write-up, not an optional rule. The GM always retains the right to alter the rules as he sees fit, after all.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Maybe what we really need is a better write-up of Healing as a whole to allow for this.

 

The Re-Use time issue is just clunky no matter how you slice it.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Maybe what we really need is a better write-up of Healing as a whole to allow for this.

 

The Re-Use time issue is just clunky no matter how you slice it.

 

I apologise to anyone who's read me saying this before , but IMHO the default restrictions on Healing run counter to the spirit of HERO System. Healing has a lot of "game balance" factors built in, but there are quite a few Powers and Advantages which could be unbalancing if used without restraint. The game normally leaves it to the GM to decide what's acceptable at his table. Personally I would prefer a more wide-open Healing Power -- if I want restrictions on Healing for a particular setting or campaign, I could Limit it as I wish.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

I apologise to anyone who's read me saying this before ' date=' but IMHO the default restrictions on Healing run counter to the spirit of HERO System. Healing has a lot of "game balance" factors built in, but there are quite a few Powers and Advantages which could be unbalancing if used without restraint. The game normally leaves it to the GM to decide what's acceptable at his table. Personally I would prefer a more wide-open Healing Power -- if I want restrictions on Healing for a particular setting or campaign, I could Limit it as I wish.[/quote']

 

Indeed. The 'forced balance' on Healing causes more problems than it solves IMO.

[archermoo]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Well, I think it's a little misleading to emphasize the "optional" nature of the Regeneration rules. Every published character and creature that I've seen in Fifth Edition books that has this exclusively self-healing capacity has it built to these parameters. If we had one or more reasonably common examples of it being done differently, it would be easier to accept that this is not intended to be the "official" way to build Regeneration.

 

If these rules were truly optional, and designed for greater flexibility, the source books would allow for and even encourage variations. Why can't someone leave off Self Only to Regenerate someone else by touch? Why can't the Extra Time be reduced for faster Regen? Why can't it cost Endurance, or not be Persistent so someone would have to be conscious to use it? Why can't it apply to Characteristics other than BODY? IMHO the real reason is because 5E Regeneration is a transparent attempt to grandfather the very specific effect of 4E Regeneration via a different construct. As long as that's the case the comparisons to 4E Regen are inevitable.

 

I don't see how it being the official way to do Regeneration make is no longer optional. The Hit Location Chart is an optional rule, and it is also the official way to determine where you hit an opponent. Is it somehow less optional because there aren't any other ways presented in the rules or examples of determining where you hit someone?

 

It is an optional rule. If people don't want to allow a Regeneration type power in their games, they just don't use this optional variant of Healing. If they do want to, there is this optional variant available for them.

 

Consider this: we want the Power to Heal a set amount of BODY' date=' so we make it Standard Effect (1 BODY per 1d6 isn't exactly accurate, but close enough). We want it to not cost END, so it buys [i']Reduced Endurance[/i]. We don't want it to shut off when the possessor is unconscious, so we apply Persistent. It's supposed to work gradually rather than instantly, so takes Extra Time. It's only supposed to work for the possessor of the Power, so of course it's Self Only. To Heal someone regardless of the amount of damage he takes, which default Healing doesn't do... well, there you go. Every rules-legal permutation of Healing to make it work in the desired fashion is accounted for with the appropriate Modifier, except one of the most important ones, which makes the Power more effective than in its base form. The illogic of going through more steps than with 4E Regen to recreate its effect, yet not accounting for the desired result, is what I object to most about the current construct.

 

Are you objecting that you can't build Regeneration without using the Regeneration rules? If so, that seems to me like objecting that you can't determine where you hit someone within the rules without using the Hit Location Chart.

 

If you are objecting to how Regeneration is built using the Regeneration rules, I don't understand what you are objecting to. The desired result is accounted for. The result is a power that heals for 1 Body every post 12. How is that not accounted for in the Regeneration rules?

 

The Regeneration variant on Healing has some changes to how base Healing works, and it has some required Advantages and Limitations that must be applied. I'll agree that it might have been a bit easier to take those Advantages and Limitations into account and just come up with a different base cost than base Healing. But that would change how further Advantages and Limitations modify the Real Cost.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

I guess what I'm objecting to is that there's no "exceed the maximum Healing cap" Advantage in that mix. I don't see the point to making the effort to follow the default rules for turning Healing into Regeneration in every other way, and then just handwaving away one of Healing's most important restrictions. Eliminating that restriction isn't just a different way to handle Healing; it's a significant improvement in the utility of the Power, and in HERO such improvements are typically paid for with Advantages or Adders.

 

I'd prefer either a full accounting, or just defining a Regeneration base power subset of Healing (again, like Succor is to Aid). But I do want to stress that this is my personal objection, and I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong to be satisfied with Regen as it stands. YMMV.

[Vulcan]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

I don't know if I'd call it all that important of a limitation. Healing is already limited in that it can only restore values back to their original level. It's not like it can add extra points, such as Aid and Transfer do.

 

And if it is that important, why doesn't Drain have the same limitation? It seems to me that unlimited low-dice Drain can be more abusive than unlimited low-dice Healing.

 

But that's me.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

I guess what I'm objecting to is that there's no "exceed the maximum Healing cap" Advantage in that mix. I don't see the point to making the effort to follow the default rules for turning Healing into Regeneration in every other way, and then just handwaving away one of Healing's most important restrictions. Eliminating that restriction isn't just a different way to handle Healing; it's a significant improvement in the utility of the Power, and in HERO such improvements are typically paid for with Advantages or Adders.

 

I'd prefer either a full accounting, or just defining a Regeneration base power subset of Healing (again, like Succor is to Aid). But I do want to stress that this is my personal objection, and I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong to be satisfied with Regen as it stands. YMMV.

 

It doesn't quite "just handwave it away"

 

It trades it in. Regeneration is restricted to Body Characteristic Only in return for removing the Reuse Cap.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

I guess what I'm objecting to is that there's no "exceed the maximum Healing cap" Advantage in that mix. I don't see the point to making the effort to follow the default rules for turning Healing into Regeneration in every other way, and then just handwaving away one of Healing's most important restrictions. Eliminating that restriction isn't just a different way to handle Healing; it's a significant improvement in the utility of the Power, and in HERO such improvements are typically paid for with Advantages or Adders.

 

I'd prefer either a full accounting, or just defining a Regeneration base power subset of Healing (again, like Succor is to Aid). But I do want to stress that this is my personal objection, and I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong to be satisfied with Regen as it stands. YMMV.

 

To me, it was needed in 5e to allow Regen to function. However, corners were cut in not costing out the "cap per turn" advantage (it extrapolates out to +1).

 

Once FH came out, with its reduced re-use rate, it was possible to build regen with no such handwave, but it was too late. In my view, reduced reuse rate should have been designed to be +1 for 1/turn to make regen work, or should have provided an alternate Regen cost to replace that in 5e and use the decreased reuse advantage.

 

5er could have fixed that, except for the commitment that 5er would not make any changes to existing structures.

 

I don't know if I'd call it all that important of a limitation. Healing is already limited in that it can only restore values back to their original level. It's not like it can add extra points, such as Aid and Transfer do.

 

And if it is that important, why doesn't Drain have the same limitation? It seems to me that unlimited low-dice Drain can be more abusive than unlimited low-dice Healing.

 

My character will stand still for five minutes+ to allow that low dice Healing to fully cure him after combat. He will not stand still to be Drained. The cap on Transfer as a drain should be removed - buying a Drain and Linked Aid is far more cost-effective, and it should not be.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Rapid Regeneration

 

Adjustment power

Range: Self Only

Does not cost END

Persistent

 

For 5 character points you recover (whenever you take a PS 12 recovery) 1 character point worth of a characteristic or power that you have lost through another adjustment power or through the manifestation of any other power, including damage.

 

If the characteristic or power was lost through an adjustment power, Rapid Regeneration adds to the points you would recover for that characteristic or power due to the normal fade rate. For example, if you have RR 1 (Energy Blast), for 5 points, and your EB is drained by 20 points, instead of recovering 5 points to the power every turn, you would recover 6.

 

Probably the most common use of the power is to buy 10 points for RR 2 (Body), to simulate the ability to rapidly regenerate damage, by recovering 1 Body each turn. NB if you have Body regeneration and you are using the bleeding rules then you need to devote 1 point of regeneration (not a point of Body) to stopping each 1d6 of bleeding before you can start to recover Body. If you are in negative pody,t he first point of RR (Body) stops further deterioration and any subsequent points are devotind to stopping bleeding and then regenerating Body. If you buy RR (Body) you can take a -1 limtiation: only to stop bleeding and deterioration.

 

You can apply any of the normal modifiers to the power so that you can, for instance, Rapidly Regenerate more than one ability linked by common sfx at once. You can also reduce the regeneration rate by moving down the time scale for a -1/4 limitation for each grade.

 

You cannot move UP the time table as such but if you buy enough RR to regenerate more than 1 character point per turn then you can apply the regeneration, with GM permission, during the turn, so, for instance, if you can RR 5 character points, and you have 5 SPD, you can decide than, instead of regenerating 5 points PS12, you regenerate 1 on each of your phases. If you use this option you chose when you build the power, and cannot subsequently change your mind.

 

You can apply Rapid Regeneration to senses that have been flashed - each point of RR reduces the remaining segments that the sense remains flashed by 1 at PS 12: a targetting sense group costs 3 character points, a targeting sense or non-targeting group costs 2, and a non-targeting sense costs 1.

 

Regrowth

 

Body power

Range: Self Only

Does not cost END

Persistent

 

Rapid Regeneration is a form of rapid healing and does not allow you to do anything that normal healing would not do, so if you have lost a leg, it will not grow back.

 

You can purchase seperately the Regrowth power whuich does allow limbs and other organs to grow back. You do not need to buy RR to buy Regrowth - if you do not have RR, use your normal healing rates.

 

For 5 points you can heal without scarring, and bones will set int heir normal configuration. If you are suffering an impairment and recover the Body before the impairment would normally be gone, this level of regrowth will remove it. It also removes any disabling effect that did COM damage.

 

For 10 points you can heal any injury even if that requires re-growing some tissue - you can regrow lost limbs ans surface tissue. This level of regrowth prevents permanent disability from anything by complete amputation. You cannot usually recover lost memories, however.

 

For 20 points you can actually re-grow lost body parts, lost limbs, lungs or whatever. No damaging effect is considered permanent - you can even recover lost memories, if the GM allows. If you were beheaded and your head was somehow kept alive you could eventually re-grow an entire body.

 

Generally only one body part will fully recover, so, for instance, if you did regrow your body after being beheaded, your body would not also re-grow a head, but the GM might have this happen for plot purposes, or if you wanted to have a form of duplication where you cuold not re-combine.

 

Resurrection

 

Body power

Range: Self Only

Does not cost END

Persistent

 

You do not need to buy RR or regrowth to purchase resurrection, although it might be sensible.

 

Normally when you reach -(Body), you permanently die. If you buy resurection for 20 points, you die as normal. In effect you no longer require the normal process of life but, so long as you are not in an environment that causes damage, and so long as you are not further damaged by any other means, your body stops deteriorating and starts to heal (if you do not have RR, you 'heal' one Body per month, or longer time period as you see fit). When you are healed to the point that you would be at 0 Body, you become conscious and 'alive' again. You are not able to sense anything or take any actions until this happens, because you are dead.

 

If, however, your corpse takes MORE that -(Body) you die permanently.

 

For +5 points you can take damage up to -(Body x2) before you are permanently dead - this is normally the point at which your corpse would be considered utterly destroyed. You still 'die' and stop deteriorating naturally at -(Body).

 

Resurrection does not automatically include any re-growth of body parts that are lost, so even if you live again you could still be a mess.

 

If you have re-growth at the +20 level you can regrow and resurrect so long as some part of your Body remains, even if the rest of it has taken damage in excess of -(Body x2). It is up to the GM to determine how much (and what sort) of tissue need be preserved before you can resurrect.

 

Unless the GM allows otherwise you cannot resurect if your Body is completely destroyed.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

It doesn't quite "just handwave it away"

 

It trades it in. Regeneration is restricted to Body Characteristic Only in return for removing the Reuse Cap.

 

*Shrug* Healing at base level affects one Characteristic at a time, so I'm afraid I don't see how decreeing that Regeneration Healing can only be bought to work on BODY is a trade for removing the Reuse Cap. But I think I've beaten this dead horse enough. This is how it's officially done, so I'll change it for my own games, let other folks use what they like, and hold my nose if I happen to write up anything for publication with Regeneration... at least, until I see how Sixth Edition handles it.

 

Speaking of which, Steve Long's "HEROglyphs" column in Digital Hero #29 describes an IMHO very cool option for REC-based Regeneration. I'd be quite happy to see that become a standard Power in 6E.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

It doesn't quite "just handwave it away"

 

It trades it in. Regeneration is restricted to Body Characteristic Only in return for removing the Reuse Cap.

 

And where exactly are the details of this Modifier written down?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Although not written down, if you work the math, there is an implicit +1 for elimination of the reuse restriction (or reducing it to per turn, depending on how one views this). Although 1d6 heal is used, standard effect of 2 points means you're only getting 2/3 of the die.

 

The fact it's not written down is annoying, and I would hope 6e provides a writeup for Regen which includes all modifiers, assuming a "regen from healing" approach continued into 6e.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

*Shrug* Healing at base level affects one Characteristic at a time, so I'm afraid I don't see how decreeing that Regeneration Healing can only be bought to work on BODY is a trade for removing the Reuse Cap. But I think I've beaten this dead horse enough. This is how it's officially done, so I'll change it for my own games, let other folks use what they like, and hold my nose if I happen to write up anything for publication with Regeneration... at least, until I see how Sixth Edition handles it.

 

Speaking of which, Steve Long's "HEROglyphs" column in Digital Hero #29 describes an IMHO very cool option for REC-based Regeneration. I'd be quite happy to see that become a standard Power in 6E.

 

Prevents me from buying Regenerate STUN, or EGO, or . . .Anything else.

 

And where exactly are the details of this Modifier written down?

 

5ER p187, bottom left hand column. It's not a modifier, it's a change to the Base Rule to create an Optional Rule.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Hero is a game about general principles, not specific exceptions.

 

If a particular build is abusive, the tools for preventing it ruining a game are the GM, and the word 'No'.

 

If we have to apply exceptions to standard powers to create an effect, then why base them on a standard power in the first place? They are something different.

 

In my, always humble, opinion, of course

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Hero is a game about general principles, not specific exceptions.

 

If a particular build is abusive, the tools for preventing it ruining a game are the GM, and the word 'No'.

 

If we have to apply exceptions to standard powers to create an effect, then why base them on a standard power in the first place? They are something different.

 

In my, always humble, opinion, of course

 

In large part, I agree. But one general principal could logically be "restoring damage is the province of Recovery and Healing". That would indicate a separate Regeneration power should not exist, and the effect should be constructed using Healing.

 

[And did the books really get that lengthy on just general principals?]

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

In large part, I agree. But one general principal could logically be "restoring damage is the province of Recovery and Healing". That would indicate a separate Regeneration power should not exist, and the effect should be constructed using Healing.

 

[And did the books really get that lengthy on just general principals?]

 

I can certainly see the attraction to making regeneration a part of Healing, but no more than making healing a part of Aid. If it works off the same principles, that works well for me, and, whilst I'm an opinionated blow-hard, there does seem to be a quite disproportional amount of debate around regeneration, so maybe it does need a look-see.

 

My problem is that we need special rules that ONLY apply to a single build to make it work as part of Healing, and, to me, that is the best possible evidence that it shouldn't be there, or at least shouldn't be there at that price.

 

The powers I suggested (and, you understand, I just made all that up and didn't edit it particularly for clarity and brevity - I was just getting it in-post) do make regeneration an adjustment power, but have a lot more general applicability, and they take regrowth ans resurrection out of being adders and make them seperate powers (you shouldn't NEED regeneration to be able to regrow a limb - it just takes a lot longer without it).

 

There is always a point of diminishing returns, but seperating the elements out rather than trying to cram them into somewhere they don't (IMO) fit properly, expands the tool options of the system whilst maintaining useability, which seems like a pretty good criteria for inclusion.

 

I think if we did stick to general principles - and really thought about those core values - the core build rules could be shorter and we could spend more times (and space) presenting examples of interesting, consistent builds.

 

It is only fair, of course, to point out that 5th ed regeneration is something I've always had a problem with, so, I'm biased. I think it is a shame that 5ER, when it bought in reduced re-use duration, an advantage unavailable in 5th, decided to maintain the make and mend rules it used for regeneration rather than applying its new principles.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

It is only fair' date=' of course, to point out that 5th ed regeneration is something I've always had a problem with, so, I'm biased. I think it is a shame that 5ER, when it bought in reduced re-use duration, an advantage unavailable in 5th, decided to maintain the make and mend rules it used for regeneration rather than applying its new principles.[/quote']

 

I agree that the entire structure would be improved by incorporated decreased re-use into Regen. That could not be done in 5er due to Steve's commitment not to change anything, but is easily implemented in 6E.

 

2/3d6 Heal, 0 END, Persistent, Reduced re-use 1/turn, Standard Effect 2 CP 23 AP self only, 1 turn 8 RP. And away we go.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

In large part, I agree. But one general principal could logically be "restoring damage is the province of Recovery and Healing". That would indicate a separate Regeneration power should not exist, and the effect should be constructed using Healing.

 

Now I agree with the first part of this. restoring damage should be the province of recovery and healing - though aid does do a facsimile of healing...

 

However, I liked the construct Sean has below...

 

Rapid Regeneration

 

Adjustment power

Range: Self Only

Does not cost END

Persistent

 

For 5 character points you recover (whenever you take a PS 12 recovery) 1 character point worth of a characteristic or power that you have lost through another adjustment power or through the manifestation of any other power, including damage.

 

If the characteristic or power was lost through an adjustment power, Rapid Regeneration adds to the points you would recover for that characteristic or power due to the normal fade rate. For example, if you have RR 1 (Energy Blast), for 5 points, and your EB is drained by 20 points, instead of recovering 5 points to the power every turn, you would recover 6.

 

Probably the most common use of the power is to buy 10 points for RR 2 (Body), to simulate the ability to rapidly regenerate damage, by recovering 1 Body each turn. NB if you have Body regeneration and you are using the bleeding rules then you need to devote 1 point of regeneration (not a point of Body) to stopping each 1d6 of bleeding before you can start to recover Body. If you are in negative pody,t he first point of RR (Body) stops further deterioration and any subsequent points are devotind to stopping bleeding and then regenerating Body. If you buy RR (Body) you can take a -1 limtiation: only to stop bleeding and deterioration.

 

You can apply any of the normal modifiers to the power so that you can, for instance, Rapidly Regenerate more than one ability linked by common sfx at once. You can also reduce the regeneration rate by moving down the time scale for a -1/4 limitation for each grade.

 

You cannot move UP the time table as such but if you buy enough RR to regenerate more than 1 character point per turn then you can apply the regeneration, with GM permission, during the turn, so, for instance, if you can RR 5 character points, and you have 5 SPD, you can decide than, instead of regenerating 5 points PS12, you regenerate 1 on each of your phases. If you use this option you chose when you build the power, and cannot subsequently change your mind.

 

You can apply Rapid Regeneration to senses that have been flashed - each point of RR reduces the remaining segments that the sense remains flashed by 1 at PS 12: a targetting sense group costs 3 character points, a targeting sense or non-targeting group costs 2, and a non-targeting sense costs 1.

 

However, I would possibly look at calling it rapid recovery and instead of giving points recovery per point you would change the rate of recovery one step in the time chart. I haven't looked at costs yet but you can recover 1/20 REC in BODY per day in normal terms? In HERO the average REC must be around 8 or so - so 4/5 BODY per day. It would take a few steps to get that down to about 4/5 BODY per turn but would be more effective for high BODY bricks than low BODY energy blasters...

 

The adders and stuff that I snipped from Sean's post would work well here.

 

The problem with regeneration is that it is not healing as presented in the book and it feels twisted to make it fit there.

 

We accept that to change self in HERO you use shapeshift and multiform, to change others you use transform. I see no conflict in having to use healing for others and some other kind of power for self healing. I would prefer that to build on something we already have - ability to take a recovery when not resting or accelerated recoveries in the matter of BODY.

 

 

Doc

[archermoo]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

I guess what I'm objecting to is that there's no "exceed the maximum Healing cap" Advantage in that mix. I don't see the point to making the effort to follow the default rules for turning Healing into Regeneration in every other way, and then just handwaving away one of Healing's most important restrictions. Eliminating that restriction isn't just a different way to handle Healing; it's a significant improvement in the utility of the Power, and in HERO such improvements are typically paid for with Advantages or Adders.

 

I'd prefer either a full accounting, or just defining a Regeneration base power subset of Healing (again, like Succor is to Aid). But I do want to stress that this is my personal objection, and I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong to be satisfied with Regen as it stands. YMMV.

 

It isn't handwaving any more than the base rules of Healing are handwaving. Or the base rules of any other power. Regeneration isn't just an example build of default Healing. It is a power based on Healing, which is why it is written up in the Healing section. However it has significant modifications to the base Healing Power, which is why it has its own subsection of the rules.

 

As I don't consider the fact that Energy Blasts and Killing Attacks determine how much damage they do in different ways to be handwaving, I also don't consider the rules changes made in Healing to make the optional Regeneration rules to be handwaving.

 

And where exactly are the details of this Modifier written down?

 

It isn't a Modifier. It is a change to the rules of Healing. The specifics of this optional modification to the rules of Healing are written down on p187 of 5ER.

 

Which again seems to be the root of the problem. People seem to object to Regeneration because they see it as just a sample Power write up, rather than a set of rules changes to how the Healing Power works. Why this is such a difficult concept to grasp I have no idea.

 

Within the Healing Power there is a Regeneration subsection. This subsection contains optional changes to the base rules for the Healing Power that alters how it works. Some of those changes are required Advantages and Limitations. And some of them are specific modifications to how the Power itself works. These changes are not Power Modifiers. They are new rules in and of themselves that change how the Healing Power works.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

However, I liked the construct Sean has below...

 

However, I would possibly look at calling it rapid recovery and instead of giving points recovery per point you would change the rate of recovery one step in the time chart. I haven't looked at costs yet but you can recover 1/20 REC in BODY per day in normal terms? In HERO the average REC must be around 8 or so - so 4/5 BODY per day. It would take a few steps to get that down to about 4/5 BODY per turn but would be more effective for high BODY bricks than low BODY energy blasters...

 

The adders and stuff that I snipped from Sean's post would work well here.

 

I also like Sean's system as an alternative, although I'm fine with Healing being maintained. To your comments:

 

- I prefer the Rapid Recovery name you suggest, except that it seems to link the ability with the Recovery characteristic.

 

- To me, linking this with REC would require that its cost be linked with the amount of REC available. There are two reasons for this. First that I don't want the cost of Regen to vary with a character's REC (while REC does recover BOD, to me it is far more about recovery of STUN and END than BOD). Second, it complicates setting regeneration at a specific level (eg. 2 BOD per turn).

 

The problem with regeneration is that it is not healing as presented in the book and it feels twisted to make it fit there.

 

6e could readily correct this by constricting Regeneration with reduced re-use time, 1 turn and reflecting the fact that 2 CP is 2/3 of 1d6, and not a full d6. The mechanics now exist (they did not in 5e) to build regeneration without handwaving, so let's use them.

 

We accept that to change self in HERO you use shapeshift and multiform' date=' to change others you use transform. I see no conflict in having to use healing for others and some other kind of power for self healing. I would prefer that to build on something we already have - ability to take a recovery when not resting or accelerated recoveries in the matter of BODY.[/quote']

 

We also accept that Transform cannot be used to Transform the character using the ability. Are you proposing that Healing be restricted to others, and not permitted to heal the character himself? To me, the key difference is that Transform is designed as an attack, while Multiform and Shapeshift are not. The differentiation between Healing and Regeneration is less pronounced, at least in my eyes.

 

It isn't a Modifier. It is a change to the rules of Healing. The specifics of this optional modification to the rules of Healing are written down on p187 of 5ER.

 

It's funny that no one ever asks "where are the Cumulative and Costs END and Costs END to maintain or fades immediately modifiers" when discussing the Succor variant of Aid. As Archermoo says, Regeneration as presented in 5e is not a sample power using healing. It is a variant power with different rules.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

It isn't handwaving any more than the base rules of Healing are handwaving. Or the base rules of any other power. Regeneration isn't just an example build of default Healing. It is a power based on Healing, which is why it is written up in the Healing section. However it has significant modifications to the base Healing Power, which is why it has its own subsection of the rules.

 

As I don't consider the fact that Energy Blasts and Killing Attacks determine how much damage they do in different ways to be handwaving, I also don't consider the rules changes made in Healing to make the optional Regeneration rules to be handwaving.

 

Energy Blast and Killing Attack are two separate Powers.

 

It isn't a Modifier. It is a change to the rules of Healing. The specifics of this optional modification to the rules of Healing are written down on p187 of 5ER.

 

Which again seems to be the root of the problem. People seem to object to Regeneration because they see it as just a sample Power write up, rather than a set of rules changes to how the Healing Power works. Why this is such a difficult concept to grasp I have no idea.

 

If it's a rules change it should be a separate Power. In fact, it's a rules change to make the Healing Power work the way the Regeneration Power used to. It would be as if, in 6e, there were one Power called Damage. This Power is a ranged Normal attack; if you want it to be Killing you buy it with a specific build (say, AVLD Resistant Defenses) and suddenly you roll the dice differently.

 

It's been mentioned that the Regeneration build should have used the Reset Time Modifier from Fantasy Hero and 5er, with some speculation as to why that wasn't done. I'm on record in the past (in this thread) stating that it should have been done this way.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

I also like Sean's system as an alternative, although I'm fine with Healing being maintained. To your comments:

 

- I prefer the Rapid Recovery name you suggest, except that it seems to link the ability with the Recovery characteristic.

 

And I thought I was explicit about that.

 

I think that people buying a high REC are almost buying a limited version of regeneration anyway. If someone buys rapid recovery on top of a high REC then they regenerate more quickly.

 

- To me' date=' linking this with REC would require that its cost be linked with the amount of REC available. There are two reasons for this. First that I don't want the cost of Regen to vary with a character's REC (while REC does recover BOD, to me it is far more about recovery of STUN and END than BOD). Second, it complicates setting regeneration at a specific level (eg. 2 BOD per turn).[/quote']

 

I hadn't suggested a cost structure. I don't see a huge problem in making the base cost of the rapid recovery power a factor of the characters REC. Possibly you could buy rapid recovery on a portion of your REC, same way as you buy damage resistance on a portion of your defences (which would simplify the 2 BODY/turn aspect of things).

 

 

Doc

[archermoo]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Energy Blast and Killing Attack are two separate Powers.

 

Yup. And Regeneration is a set of optional rules that make Healing work differently.

 

If it's a rules change it should be a separate Power.

 

Which sends us directly into the realm of personal opinion. You think Steve should've laid the book out differently. Fine, but it still doesn't mean that the Regeneration options rules are in any way against the rules.

 

In fact, it's a rules change to make the Healing Power work the way the Regeneration Power used to. It would be as if, in 6e, there were one Power called Damage. This Power is a ranged Normal attack; if you want it to be Killing you buy it with a specific build (say, AVLD Resistant Defenses) and suddenly you roll the dice differently.

 

It's been mentioned that the Regeneration build should have used the Reset Time Modifier from Fantasy Hero and 5er, with some speculation as to why that wasn't done. I'm on record in the past (in this thread) stating that it should have been done this way.

 

Regeneration isn't a build. It is a set of optional rules for changing how Healing works. Regardless of how many times it gets referred to as either a build or a sample power it won't change the fact that that isn't what it is. It is a set of optional rules that is based off of Healing, but makes some significant changes to the Healing rules.

 

My issue isn't whether or not Regeneration should have or could have been built differently. My issue is people ignoring the rules to claim that it somehow breaks the rules. It doesn't break the rules any more than any other section of rules breaks the rules. Yes, it doesn't work like baseline Healing. It isn't supposed to.