Help with the Regeneration Power?

[Leafar the Lost]

I'm new to the 5th edition game, but I played it many years ago. I remember the Regeneration Power being 10 points for 1 BODY/Turn. In 5th edition, its a part of Aid and I really don't get it. Has someone come up with something simplier?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Regeneration is part of Healing, not Aid.

 

It's a series of (some would say) convoluted Advantages and Limitations.

 

But in the end it works the exact same as 1 Body/Turn, though the cost varies depending on if you put Can Heal Limbs and/or Resurrection on it.

 

I'm sure in a moment a whole crowd of people will offer up some advice on a different build. In the end you could just go with 10pts/1 Body and be done with it.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Regeneration is part of Healing, not Aid.

 

 

Thank you! That's what I'm talking about....

 

 

(Tried to say the same thing myself earlier, but I got the impression that no one really noticed...)

[CTaylor]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

I'd advise just house ruling the old Regen rules back in and ignoring the 5th edition rules. Steve has stated he won't return to the old regen and will not consider any discussion on the topic, so we're stuck with some odd construct in the rules.

[Vulcan]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

I don't find the 5E rule all that cumbersome, but that's me.

 

What you're doing is buying 1d6 Healing (10 points).

 

Give it standard effect (3 points per die, which rounds down to one BODY per application),

 

Add 0 END and Persistent on it (total of +1 in advantages, 20 AP). This way it works automatically, presumably you 'turn it on' and never turn it off again.

 

Add Self Only (-1/2) and Extra Time (1 Turn, -1)

 

Final cost: 8 points.

 

The trouble comes up when a GM enforces the 'max healing' limits on regeneration (which is in the 5E book, I don't know about 5ER). Some do, some don't. If yours does, you probably want to raise the maximum amount you can heal to four times your BODY score so you can regenerate up from near death. This gets pricy though. (example: for 15 BODY you want to be able to 'heal' 60 points: +54 AP, 27 points before modifiers. Add 54 active, 22 real)

 

Being able to regerate limbs isn't too expensive. Add 10 AP, 4 real.

 

Coming back from the dead... A bit more expensive. Add 40 AP, 16 real. And if your GM enforces the 'max healing' limits on regeneration, it might not be worth it. It's possible that you could be so overkilled that you won't be able to come back...

 

(Incidentally, I just discovered the example 'Lycanthropic Regeneration' is incorrect in the 5E book, they didn't give it 'Extra Time')

[ghost-angel]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

I don't find the 5E rule all that cumbersome, but that's me.

 

What you're doing is buying 1d6 Healing (10 points).

 

Give it standard effect (3 points per die, which rounds down to one BODY per application),

 

Add 0 END and Persistent on it (total of +1 in advantages, 20 AP). This way it works automatically, presumably you 'turn it on' and never turn it off again.

 

Add Self Only (-1/2) and Extra Time (1 Turn, -1)

 

Final cost: 8 points.

 

The trouble comes up when a GM enforces the 'max healing' limits on regeneration (which is in the 5E book, I don't know about 5ER). Some do, some don't. If yours does, you probably want to raise the maximum amount you can heal to four times your BODY score so you can regenerate up from near death. This gets pricy though. (example: for 15 BODY you want to be able to 'heal' 60 points: +54 AP, 27 points before modifiers. Add 54 active, 22 real)

 

Being able to regerate limbs isn't too expensive. Add 10 AP, 4 real.

 

Coming back from the dead... A bit more expensive. Add 40 AP, 16 real. And if your GM enforces the 'max healing' limits on regeneration, it might not be worth it. It's possible that you could be so overkilled that you won't be able to come back...

 

(Incidentally, I just discovered the example 'Lycanthropic Regeneration' is incorrect in the 5E book, they didn't give it 'Extra Time')

 

5ER actually made a few changes.

The Extra Time Limitation is -1 1/4 (making it 7pts/1 Body for standard Regen)

And specifically mentions that the Max Healing does not apply.

 

And for the record I don't find the Regen Build that cumbersome either. Especially in play, because like almost all Power Builds, the In Game Workings are simple and easy no matter how complex the Power Generation Build is. At least, that's how I see it.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

5ER actually made a few changes.

The Extra Time Limitation is -1 1/4 (making it 7pts/1 Body for standard Regen)

And specifically mentions that the Max Healing does not apply.

 

That bit about Max Healing is the part of the new Regeneration construct that's always baffled me. Why go to all the trouble of making an involved construct according to the rules to get a particular effect, if you're going to ignore one of the rules anyway? I could accept building it out of Healing if the build actually added up to the desired result. If an additional Advantage were included in the standard Regeneration formula to account for that discrepancy... well, I would still prefer the straightforwardness of 4E Regen, but I could at least buy the logic of making it like that.

 

OTOH in 5E we have Succor as a subset of Aid, a base Power for a similar effect but with a different cost and working differently. It certainly wouldn't be a stretch to make Regeneration the same sort of subset of Healing.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

The rules for regeneration used to confuse a lot of people, and make a lot of other people angry because of their complexity and apparent disregard of the rules.

 

Now, however, the rules have been clarified, so, instead of a confusing and contradictory power that cost (confusingly) 10 points for 1 point of regeneration, we now have a power that you handily scratch build every time you need it using variations on the rest of the rules that don't apply to anything else and limitations that, whilst they give you a cost break, actually act as advantages. At last count there were over 8000 threads on this board alone praising how straightforward and comprehensible the new version of regeneration is, with not one dissenting voice.

 

I hope that helps.

 

Oh, and welcome back

[Kdansky]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

You could also put the "reduced time of re-use" advantage on it, which would actually make sense! After all, that stupid thing exists for only that reason and is explicitly mentioned on the same page (or so)! That makes Regen a couple points more pricey, but it's still the same ballpark, around 10 per 1 point. That is the more sensible approach...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

You could also put the "reduced time of re-use" advantage on it' date=' which would actually make sense! After all, that stupid thing exists for only that reason and is explicitly mentioned on the same page (or so)! That makes Regen a couple points more pricey, but it's still the same ballpark, around 10 per 1 point. That is the more sensible approach...[/quote']

 

Actually, the sensible approach would have been to write decreased reuse time to have the same effect as the implicit "no cap" buried in Regen. 1 BOD is 2 points on the die, not 3, so Regen really is 2/3 of a die. That allows a +1 "reuse time one turn" advantage to be extrapolated. Had that been incorporated into the writeup of decreased re-use time when that advantage was later developed in Fantasy Hero (perhaps by setting the default re-use time at 1 hour instead of 1 day, or perhaps by staging the advantage differently), the two would have dovetailed perfectly and Regen could have been rewritten in 5er accordingly without a major change to the ability from 5e.

 

6e has the opportunity to better match the two, so hopefully it gets fixed.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

I think the problem is that "Regeneration" as it is described in 5er is an OPTIONAL rule that has somehow had its status upgraded to OFFICIAL.

 

from:

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised ■ Chapter One

page 187

 

Regeneration

Regeneration is an optional form of Healing BODY with the Standard Effect Rule which Heals 1 point of BODY damage per die.

 

The use of the optional Regeneration rule is very similar to adding Advantages and Limitations to Talents which are just pre-packaged Powers that have Advantages and/or Limitations already built in. It causes problems because of 'double-dipping'.

 

Here are some cost comparison examples to mull over for those that haven't read the older threads on this subject.

 

The first 2 examples function exactly the same.

All 3 "Heal" 2 Body each time the power is activated.

The "Per Wound" variant is over twice the cost but is arguably more than twice as useful too.

 

12 Book Recommended Regeneration Method: Healing 2 BODY, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (40 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12) (-1 1/4), Always On (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2) - END=0

 

14 It's like Regeneration but Different!: Healing BODY 1d6+1 (standard effect: 4 points), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (45 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), -1 1/4), Always On (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2) - END=0

 

27 It's like Regeneration but Different! (Per Wound!): Healing BODY 1d6+1 (standard effect: 4 points), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; Whenever character takes BODY damage.; +3/4), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (55 Active Points); Always On (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2)

[Notes: If the character suffers 3 Body damage from 1 attack and then 2 body from another on Phase 3 then 1 Body damage on Phase 6 they will not heal the remaining 1 Body from phase 3 until Phase 3 on the following Turn. The triggered healing will only affect the damage taken by each specific attack.] - END=0

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Regeneration is built using what I lately have been calling "blah blah blah", which is a long string of Modifiers that make your eyes glaze over when you read it.

[TheInexplicable]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

It is a bit of an eyesore if you write out how the new Regeneration works. I just wrote it out in the sidebar once and note it as Regeneration on the character sheet and make sure I list the correct AP and RC.

 

The only problem I have with the new method is that our games almost always include AP caps and that means that you get half as much Regeneration now as you used to under 4th Ed. That kind of sucks. In a typical game of 60AP caps you only get 3 Body per turn instead of the old 6.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

...

Especially in play, because like almost all Power Builds, the In Game Workings are simple and easy no matter how complex the Power Generation Build is. At least, that's how I see it.

 

I agree with this part 100%.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

The rules for regeneration used to confuse a lot of people, and make a lot of other people angry because of their complexity and apparent disregard of the rules.

 

Now, however, the rules have been clarified, so, instead of a confusing and contradictory power that cost (confusingly) 10 points for 1 point of regeneration, we now have a power that you handily scratch build every time you need it using variations on the rest of the rules that don't apply to anything else and limitations that, whilst they give you a cost break, actually act as advantages. At last count there were over 8000 threads on this board alone praising how straightforward and comprehensible the new version of regeneration is, with not one dissenting voice.

 

I hope that helps.

 

Oh, and welcome back

 

My sarcasm-meter is receiving Post-Traumatic Stress therapy.

[archermoo]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Regeneration is one of those optional rules that people's reactions to it have always baffled me. Somehow the optional rules about how the Regeneration variant of the Healing Power works aren't as good or something as the other rules in the book. Because for some reason quite a few people prefer to think of the rules specific for Regeneration as being violations of the rules, rather than rules themselves. I've never been able to get a reason for this from anyone that wasn't basically "That isn't how Healing works". Of course if it worked just like Healing it wouldn't require it's own optional rules. It would just be a Power example.

 

I guess maybe the fact that it has several Advantages and Limitations that are required make people view it as just an example build rather than the set of optional rules that it really is.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

The main thing I hate about Regeneration now (along with Instant Change now) is the fact that I can't do them from memory and have to consult the book every time I want to make a character with either, even when using HD.

 

Those are the only two things I can think of that I have to do that with.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Here are some cost comparison examples to mull over for those that haven't read the older threads on this subject.

 

The first 2 examples function exactly the same.

All 3 "Heal" 2 Body each time the power is activated.

The "Per Wound" variant is over twice the cost but is arguably more than twice as useful too.

 

12 Book Recommended Regeneration Method: Healing 2 BODY, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (40 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12) (-1 1/4), Always On (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2) - END=0

 

I don't think the official build has Always On, so it would come to 15 points. That 12 threw me.

 

14 It's like Regeneration but Different!: Healing BODY 1d6+1 (standard effect: 4 points)' date=' Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (45 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), -1 1/4), Always On (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2) - END=0[/quote']

 

I'm unclear how you cost +1 to the dice. I'd say this is 4/3 d6 Healing, Standard Effect. That would be 47 AP (20 x 4/3 x 3.5) and the same 14 RP. It goes to 17 when I pull "always on".

 

27 It's like Regeneration but Different! (Per Wound!): Healing BODY 1d6+1 (standard effect: 4 points)' date=' Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; Whenever character takes BODY damage.; +3/4), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (55 Active Points); Always On (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2) [/quote']

 

Same issue with the "+1" and Always On. I get 57 AP, 28 RP (38 if I remove Always On). This is generally a much weaker power as the Trigger is sub-optimal, but it would heal small wounds inflicted rapidly on a much more effective basis.

 

[Notes: If the character suffers 3 Body damage from 1 attack and then 2 body from another on Phase 3 then 1 Body damage on Phase 6 they will not heal the remaining 1 Body from phase 3 until Phase 3 on the following Turn. The triggered healing will only affect the damage taken by each specific attack.] - END=0

 

I think the Trigger goes off when you take BOD, resets itself and stops. Thus, you suffer 3 BOD, heal 2 and remain down 1 BOD (until you poke yourself with a sharp stick for 1 BOD to heal 2, I suppose).

 

I would like to see 6e:

 

- provide for each 1 BOD regen to be based on 2/3d6 Heal, Standard Effect

- apply the advantage for decreased re-use time

- present a Regeneration talent similar to Combat Luck (which also had a huge array of modifiers but attracts far less whining)

[CTaylor]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

I think the main opposition to Regeneration (and Instant Change) is that they've been pointlessly complicated and made less easy to use for no beneficial reason. Nothing was gained by this change, and they're harder to use. That's not exactly a recipe for acceptance or praise.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

Regeneration is one of those optional rules that people's reactions to it have always baffled me. Somehow the optional rules about how the Regeneration variant of the Healing Power works aren't as good or something as the other rules in the book. Because for some reason quite a few people prefer to think of the rules specific for Regeneration as being violations of the rules, rather than rules themselves. I've never been able to get a reason for this from anyone that wasn't basically "That isn't how Healing works". Of course if it worked just like Healing it wouldn't require it's own optional rules. It would just be a Power example.

 

I guess maybe the fact that it has several Advantages and Limitations that are required make people view it as just an example build rather than the set of optional rules that it really is.

 

It's pure fiat, pulled from the nether regions of a man's head covering. The Healing Power was created with a very specific set of parameters, which (by means of the Regeneration modifiers) are tossed out the window. The combination of "blah blah blah" by which you turn Healing into Regeneration is one pointed statement that says "All of that stuff under Healing? Ignore it; it now works this way."

 

It's a hand wave. It's not an Advantage to add a bit of functionality to the Power; it's a fundamental change of how the Power works. And, in fact, it's not even an across-the-board change against Healing; it specifically, per several rules question answers by Steve Long, applies only to BODY. On numerous occasions, people have asked Steve, "If I change parameter X on Regeneration, can I have it apply in a different way?" and every time his answer has, essentially, been "No, Regeneration is its own beast. If the GM wants to allow it, sure, but that's not how it's written."

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

I don't think the official build has Always On, so it would come to 15 points. That 12 threw me.

 

...

 

I'm unclear how you cost +1 to the dice. I'd say this is 4/3 d6 Healing, Standard Effect. That would be 47 AP (20 x 4/3 x 3.5) and the same 14 RP. It goes to 17 when I pull "always on".

 

re: Always On

 

I included it for sake of build accuracy.

 

You are correct to point out that the 5e and 5er examples of "Regeneration" do not include it.

 

However, how many characters have you seen in fiction with a conscious control of the ability?

(That is, they can choose NOT to regenerate from a wound). The title character of the cancelled "Painkiller Jane" TV show is the only one I've ever seen. (I would build her ability without "Always On").

 

If a character's regeneration can be used to expose his non-normal nature (example Wolverine: "He must be a mutant, that cut on his hand is already healed!") then I think it's fair to use the Limitation.

 

re: cost

 

from page 114 ■ Character Creation: Powers Hero System 5th Edition, Revised

 

LESS THAN FULL DICE

As a general rule, unless the specific rules for an Attack Power indicate otherwise, here’s what a half die of one (or a single point of damage) costs:

 

If A Full Die Costs... Then A Half Die Costs...

15 points 10 points (or 5 points for 1 point)

10 points 5 points (or 3 points for 1 point)

5 points 3 points (or 2 points for 1 point)

3 points 1½ points (or 1 point for 1 point)

 

Healing cost 10 points per die so "+1" costs 3 points.

My first example costs 13 points before applying Advantages.

13 * 3.5 = 45.5 which rounds down to 45 per HERO rounding rules.

[archermoo]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

It's pure fiat' date=' pulled from the nether regions of a man's head covering. The Healing Power was created with a very specific set of parameters, which (by means of the Regeneration modifiers) are tossed out the window. The combination of "blah blah blah" by which you turn Healing into Regeneration is one pointed statement that says "All of that stuff under Healing? Ignore it; it now works [i']this way[/i]."

 

It's a hand wave. It's not an Advantage to add a bit of functionality to the Power; it's a fundamental change of how the Power works. And, in fact, it's not even an across-the-board change against Healing; it specifically, per several rules question answers by Steve Long, applies only to BODY. On numerous occasions, people have asked Steve, "If I change parameter X on Regeneration, can I have it apply in a different way?" and every time his answer has, essentially, been "No, Regeneration is its own beast. If the GM wants to allow it, sure, but that's not how it's written."

 

So why is it bad when it is done for Regeneration, but not bad when it is done for any of the other rules in the book? As I said before, if it wasn't a fundamental change to how Healing works, it wouldn't need to be it's own optional rule. It would just be an example power. Why is the hand waving pure fiat rule that has EB do 1d6 per 5 points okay, but the rules governing how Regeneration is different from normal Healing an abomination? I just don't understand it.

[archermoo]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

re: Always On

 

I included it for sake of build accuracy.

 

You are correct to point out that the 5e and 5er examples of "Regeneration" do not include it.

 

However, how many characters have you seen in fiction with a conscious control of the ability?

(That is, they can choose NOT to regenerate from a wound). The title character of the cancelled "Painkiller Jane" TV show is the only one I've ever seen. (I would build her ability without "Always On").

 

If a character's regeneration can be used to expose his non-normal nature (example Wolverine: "He must be a mutant, that cut on his hand is already healed!") then I think it's fair to use the Limitation.

 

The Regeneration optional rules don't require Always On. But they don't restrict it either. There certainly isn't anything saying that you can only have the Advantages and Limitations that are listed. Just that you are required to take them.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

We seem to have several different ideas being expressed.

 

I am going to try to identify all of them.

My apologies if I have left any out.

 

1. The 5e/5er version of Healing based Regeneration sucks. 4e did it better.

 

2. The 5e/5er version of Healing/Regeneration is great. What's all the fuss about?

 

3. The 5e/5er version of Healing is a good basis for creating many types of regeneration-like special effects using all the other "standard" Advantages and Limitations. No custom "Regeneration BODY" rule is required. It is redundant and confusing as it is an exception to the apparent philosophy of the "standard" rules.

 

I agree with #3

 

I don't agree with #1 because a stand alone "Regeneration" potentially destroys the current "Healing" by way of the "Usable By Other" Advantage.

 

I don't agree with #2 for most of the same basic reasons pointed out by Hugh.

 

Yes it's complicated.

HERO is complicated.

It's designed to allow detailed customization for crying out loud.

It's like one of Niven's Laws: Freedom * Security = Constant

The more freedom you have (for character ability customization) the less security (ease of use out of the box) you have.

 

HM

[Vulcan]

Re: Help with the Regeneration Power?

 

It is a bit of an eyesore if you write out how the new Regeneration works. I just wrote it out in the sidebar once and note it as Regeneration on the character sheet and make sure I list the correct AP and RC.

 

The only problem I have with the new method is that our games almost always include AP caps and that means that you get half as much Regeneration now as you used to under 4th Ed. That kind of sucks. In a typical game of 60AP caps you only get 3 Body per turn instead of the old 6.

 

How often do you need more than 3/turn? I've been getting along just fine with 1/hour, on my character with 11 PD/ED (3 rPD/ED) in a 14-16 DC game. When I get hit, I expect to take BODY and have it last a while. Perhaps your expectations for Regeneration are a bit high?