Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

[commonsensei]

Since this is my first post on the forums I'd like to start by saying hi to everyone.

I've been a fan of the hero system for years but I'm no means an expert so I figured I should ask the gurus.

Here is my question: How can I have extra limbs/stretching that can't be attacked and/or damaged in any way?

I'm trying to build a character that has extra limbs/stretching in the form of dense shadowy tendrils. I originally thought to use Telekinesis but TK doesn't provide any action/reaction effect.

Thanks in advance.

[Vulcan]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

TK would be how I would buy it. Alternately, take the "Does not cross intervening space" advantage on your streaching.

 

Or buy +30 PD/ED only for the streched limbs.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

Hmm. As usual, I would say that you first have to think exactly what it is that you want to achieve with these arms. Then you apply the special effects of indestructable/impossible to attack.

 

If you want to manipulate stuff you are looking at TK. If you want to grab things and get movement when they move then ranged clinging might fit the bill. If you want to damage stuff then there are a range of powers you might want to consider.

 

You want all this stuff? then maybe a mulitipower or EC with all this stuff in it - or perhaps a VPP - only to recreate the effects of having long, indestructable arms...

 

However you go forward though, the primary message has got to be, think what you want them to do then model that...

 

Doc

[Utech]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

Do people ever waste actions attacking the arms? Can the arms block off an area? Can you swing the arms through an area -- hitting everything in their path?

[commonsensei]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

Thanks everyone for the quick replies. Sorry for not being more specific on how I see the power working. The idea is that the shadow arms/tentacles would allow me to attack, grab, drag things to me, pull myself to things and manipulate things like pressing buttons. Basically everything I could normally do but at my stretching range. Kind of like Doc Octopus but shadow instead of steel and no focus. I guess the arms would be attackable but since they’re made of shadow and aren't really my arms I don't want anyone being able to damage me through them. The description of stretching specifies that you're vulnerable to attack when stretched over the battle field unless you take the ‘does not cross intervening space’ power advantage but that would make them not attached to me. Giving the arms a high PD/ED defense is a good idea but my character could still be affected by powerful attacks to the shadow arms, unlikely but still possible.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

The description of stretching specifies that you're vulnerable to attack when stretched over the battle field unless you take the ‘does not cross intervening space’ power advantage but that would make them not attached to me.

 

See now you are reading the description of a power and allowing that to affect the description of the special effects.

 

If you purchase the does not cross intervening space then you avoid the need to be vulnerable and may also pick up the ability to surprise people. You decide to retain the lack of vulnerability to attack but instead allow the SFX to make it obvious the source of the tentacles. You lose aspects of the surprise and possibly the indirect attack nature but you gain in that people may attack the tentacles uselessly. I'd call it about even.

 

Doc

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

What about taking Extra Limbs, Stretching (only with Extra Limbs), Desolid (only with Extra Limbs), and STR Affects Solid (only with Extra Limbs)? That way, people with certain powers could affect the shadow arms, but they would generally be intangible.

[commonsensei]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

Thanks. Very good points. Would these be acceptable builds for the power then?

Built with the ‘Does Not Cross Intervening Space’ approach:

Extra Limbs (up to 2) (5 Active Points), Only In Hero ID (-1/4) (Total Cost: 4 Points)

Plus Stretching 8”, Does Not Cross Intervening Space (+1/4) (50 Active Points), Limited Body Parts (Extra Limbs -1/4), No Noncombat Stretching (-1/4), No Velocity Damage (-1/4), Range Modifier Applies (-1/4), Only In Hero ID (-1/4) (Total Cost: 22 Points)

Plus +30 STR (30 Active Points), Only With Stretching (-1), Only In Hero ID (-1/4) (Total Cost: 13 Points) Total Cost: 39 Points

Build with the Desolid approach:

Extra Limbs (up to 2) (5 Active Points), Only In Hero ID (-1/4) (Total Cost: 4 Points)

Plus Stretching 8” (40 Active Points), Limited Body Parts (Extra Limbs -1/4), No Noncombat Stretching (-1/4), No Velocity Damage (-1/4), Range Modifier Applies (-1/4), Only In Hero ID (-1/4) (Total Cost: 18 Points)

Plus Desolidification (40 Active Points), Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2), Only With Stretching (-1), Only In Hero ID (-1/4) (Total Cost: 15 Points)

Plus +30 STR, Affects Physical World (+2) (90 Active Points), Only With Stretching (-1), Only In Hero ID (-1/4) (Total Cost: 40 Points) Total Cost: 77 Points

[SteveZilla]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

I should point out that taking "Does Not Cross Intervening Space(+1/4) does not make it impossible to attack the limb. It tends to limit the attack to the endpoint of the stretching. I.e., if you use this to grab an opponent, the opponent's teammate can attack your "hand/limb" that is holding his teammate. I.e., DNCIS does not give the whole limb Desolid-like abilities, merely Indirect abilities.

 

Also, the DNCIS Stretching can cross an intervening barrier (like a wall) to manipulate something on the other side (like in a closed room). But no matter how it's F/X is defined, this stretching cannot bring the object back to the character "thought" the barrier.

 

Desolid is the only method that would generally make the limbs completely un-damageable (barring the Affects Desolid advantage).

 

Addendum: IIUC, neither of these methods will protect the character from damage from a Damage Shield.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

If you want to grab things and get movement when they move then ranged clinging might fit the bill.

 

Ranged Clinging? I'm not sure that even makes sense. How does one cling to something that is out of reach?

[Maur]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

Ranged Clinging? I'm not sure that even makes sense. How does one cling to something that is out of reach?

 

Spiderman swinging from a web...

[SteveZilla]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

Spiderman swinging from a web...

 

I'm pretty sure that would be an example of the Swinging power.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

Ranged Clinging? I'm not sure that even makes sense. How does one cling to something that is out of reach?

 

Out of reach of your arms perhaps but superpowers have a way of doing things. You buy range on a power then you get it. In this case the sfx is shadow tentacles reaching from you rbody that allow you to cling onto the outside of some object.

 

 

Doc

[commonsensei]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

Addendum: IIUC' date=' neither of these methods will protect the character from damage from a Damage Shield.[/quote']

 

In this case Damage Shield shouldn’t cause damage to the character when I attack because the arms aren’t really part of the characters body. Their more like an object only without the focus limitation. (if that even makes sense)

If you purchase the does not cross intervening space then you avoid the need to be vulnerable and may also pick up the ability to surprise people. You decide to retain the lack of vulnerability to attack but instead allow the SFX to make it obvious the source of the tentacles. You lose aspects of the surprise and possibly the indirect attack nature but you gain in that people may attack the tentacles uselessly. I'd call it about even.

 

I really like the idea of trading around advantages and disadvantages for the ‘does not cross intervening space’ advantage in this manner. The only other effect that DNCIS doesn’t provide is being able to grab someone and drag them to me or grab something and drag myself to it. Do you still think this is even trade or should I maybe increase the advantage modifier to +1/2 like in the example below?

Here’s what I’m thinking:

Shadow Tendrils-

Extra Limbs (up to 2) (5 Active Points), Only In Hero ID (-1/4) (Total Cost: 4 Points)

Plus Stretching 8”, Does Not Cross Intervening Space/Cannot be damaged through out stretched arms (+1/2) (60 Active Points), Limited Body Parts (Extra Limbs -1/4), No Noncombat Stretching (-1/4), No Velocity Damage (-1/4), Range Modifier Applies (-1/4), Only In Hero ID (-1/4) (Total Cost: 22 Points)

Plus +30 STR (30 Active Points), Only With Stretching (-1), Only In Hero ID (-1/4) (Total Cost: 13 Points) Total Cost: 49 Points

Any ideas?

[SteveZilla]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

In this case Damage Shield shouldn’t cause damage to the character when I attack because the arms aren’t really part of the characters body. Their more like an object only without the focus limitation. (if that even makes sense)

 

The only way to avoid the Damage Shield damage when using a "limb" to attack someone is to use Telekinesis.

 

The only other effect that DNCIS doesn’t provide is being able to grab someone and drag them to me or grab something and drag myself to it.

 

I believe this is incorrect. Just because the last "level" of Indirect has been applied to Stretching via DNCIS doesn't mean you can't do what regular Stretching can do. DNCIS just won't let you pull yourself or the target "though" a barrier, despite being able to stretch "though" that barrier.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

Out of reach of your arms perhaps but superpowers have a way of doing things. You buy range on a power then you get it. In this case the sfx is shadow tentacles reaching from you rbody that allow you to cling onto the outside of some object.

 

 

Doc

 

Does this clinging make the object heavier? After all, if you are clung to something, to move that object a person would have to move the combined mass of you and that object. And if they move it, are you dragged around like a rag doll? That could be pretty funny. I can imagine the object being moved, draggin you until you hit a wall, thus causing the object to come to a dead stop for no apparent reason.

 

Then as the person moving the object tries to get it past this invisible "barrier", backing up and tring again repeatedly, moving left and right. The clinger would be smacked against the wall, then dragged bodily left and right against it in sync.

 

Though that would take Indirect to acomplish -- being able to cling to something inside a building while outside.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

Does this clinging make the object heavier? After all' date=' if you are clung to something, to move that object a person would have to move the combined mass of you and that object. [/quote']

 

Would be just like clinging and so I would imagine that it would make the object/person heavier.

 

And if they move it' date=' are you dragged around like a rag doll? That could be pretty funny. I can imagine the object being moved, draggin you until you hit a wall, thus causing the object to come to a dead stop for no apparent reason.[/quote']

 

See no reason to say that you wouldn't be dragged - just as if you were clinging to the side. As for coming to a dead stop - either that or breaking the clinging (and your face) or you release before you hit the wall.

 

Then as the person moving the object tries to get it past this invisible "barrier"' date=' backing up and tring again repeatedly, moving left and right. The clinger would be smacked against the wall, then dragged bodily left and right against it in sync. [/quote']

 

I'd say that the clinger would probably let go rather than subject themselves to this....

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

Shadow Tendrils-

Extra Limbs (up to 2) (5 Active Points), Only In Hero ID (-1/4) (Total Cost: 4 Points)

Plus Stretching 8”, Does Not Cross Intervening Space/Cannot be damaged through out stretched arms (+1/2) (60 Active Points), Limited Body Parts (Extra Limbs -1/4), No Noncombat Stretching (-1/4), No Velocity Damage (-1/4), Range Modifier Applies (-1/4), Only In Hero ID (-1/4) (Total Cost: 22 Points)

Plus +30 STR (30 Active Points), Only With Stretching (-1), Only In Hero ID (-1/4) (Total Cost: 13 Points) Total Cost: 49 Points

 

I wouldn't feel the need to add any extra advantage to grab or drag people, part of the power really.

 

I think that the Only in Hero ID verges on double dipping to have it on all three elements - you have limited the stretching by saying only with extra limbs (which are already OIHID) - you have limited the extra STR with only with stretching (which is already limited to only with extra limbs which is already OIHID).

 

Beyond that, looks fine.

 

 

Doc

[commonsensei]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

II think that the Only in Hero ID verges on double dipping to have it on all three elements - you have limited the stretching by saying only with extra limbs (which are already OIHID) - you have limited the extra STR with only with stretching (which is already limited to only with extra limbs which is already OIHID).

 

I originally thought the samething so I posted the question to Steve a couple of days ago. Here's the thread: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66972

 

One more question. Do you think that 'Only Works With Stretching' merits a (-1) limitation? I've seen it used on various powers in some of the 5th Edition books so I assume it's fine. I'm just unsure because it's kinda like 'Linked' which is only (-1/2) or 'Only Works With Extra Limbs' (-1/4). If it's fine then why is more of a limitation? What am I missing?

[SteveZilla]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

Maybe that level of a Limitation means that you don't get Casual STR from it, nor does one get Leaping distance from it.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

I think that the -1 is a bit much under the circumstances.

 

Often stretching is used for things like swords or other weapons that limit the usefulness of the power, -1 indicates that the usefulness of the power will be impacted about half the time (or that the power is half as useful).

 

In your case the power is not really limited - you can only use the strength through your shadow tentacles but that doesn't really limit it its application in most circumstances.

 

In my campaign - I wouldn't allow the double dipping aspects that Steve would - and would probably limit your 'only with stretching' to -1/2.

 

Maybe I'm just stingy....

 

 

Doc

[Kdansky]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

I would go with TK. After all, it fits the bill way better than those complicated constructs. You only have one problem: You cannot grab and attach yourself. Easily fixed by adding 10 points of clinging with +1/2 ranged for 15 points (minus limitations), or putting it into a MP (but then you cannot use your arms while you cling). You might even consider doing:

 

MP: Shadow Arms Movement: 15 AP

1u: Clinging, Ranged

1u: Swinging for 15 AP

 

Or just buy Swinging and get the Clinging part for free with a nice GM (after all, it's only 2 points of difference for a multipower).

 

(Explicit: You need to buy TK for another few points for the main effects).

 

TK gives you grab, hit, slam, pull closer and nearly everything else, except the clinging/swinging part. Extra Limbs is really not working well for this I think.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

Well. Ranged Clinging was one of things I did suggest. Stevezilla had fun with the concept.

 

However, I think the complicated build does a decent job and would probably be cheaper as well - looking at the build it is 39 points (13+22+4) rather than 49 as quoted.

 

Your multipower comes in at 17 points and then the extra for the TK.

 

I think the complicated build might be less complicated in play and provide more flexibility in interpretation of what the power was capable of doing - you can't cling and swing?

 

Doc

[commonsensei]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

How would I use my telekinesis STR with my clinging? Is this even possible or would I have to buy separate clinging STR? The rules for clinging say ‘Normal’ STR is used. I assume TK STR wouldn’t be normal.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Indestructible Extra Limbs/Stretching?

 

I just realized there's one problem with the whole Clinging + Ranged idea. Under the RaW, it's not allowed. Clinging is a power that has a range of "Self". On page 101 of 5ER, it says this about Self-ranged powers:

 

Generally speaking, characters cannot make these powers work at Range, nor can they apply the Area Of Effect Advantage to let others use the Power at the same time they do.