Lennon Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 I have been trying to think of a way to create the effect of day and night on an infinite plane? I was thinking about doing the whole Apollo thing with a god riding the sun every morning but that would mean he would have to ride in circles and some portion of the plane would always be in darkness. Then I thought about having the stars simultaneously wax and wane with intensity as the day goes on to create the illusion of day and night without the need for a sun. I like this idea the most so far, but I have not came up with a good idea of why they do this. Is it the cities of heaven turning on their torches? Or is it the spirits of ancestors breathing life into the plants? Or something else. Does anyone have any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? run it like a ring world an endlees trail of shadow panels if you want a god like applo to do it just have him put the sun up and then take it down at night maybe an hr out of his day since there is no sphere to rotate a Dyson sphere with shadow panels like a ring world there is no start and no end but there is a finite amount area on the inside of a sphere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? BTW, I'm assuming (as does the book I quote from) that this plane is infinite in only two directions, and has a finite extent in the other (up and down). If it's infinite in all three directions, what are you standing on? I have been trying to think of a way to create the effect of day and night on an infinite plane? I was thinking about doing the whole Apollo thing with a god riding the sun every morning but that would mean he would have to ride in circles and some portion of the plane would always be in darkness.Then I thought about having the stars simultaneously wax and wane with intensity as the day goes on to create the illusion of day and night without the need for a sun. I like this idea the most so far, but I have not came up with a good idea of why they do this. Is it the cities of heaven turning on their torches? Or is it the spirits of ancestors breathing life into the plants? Or something else. Does anyone have any ideas? From Chessboards: The Planes of Possibility If the world is flat and extends forever, how does the sun rise and set? Well, how about borrowing from the Apollo myth? Far, far in the east is where the Sun lives, and every day she flies into the air, etcetera. This means that if the travelers travel far enough, there either won't be any sun or there will be a different sun, and that there are twilight lands, or places where the sun rises in the northeast. The moon, or moons, can be handled in the same way. Another possibility is that the sky emits light in parallel beams. To a point b\observer the only light they [sic] sees directly would appear to be a spot, since only the beams from that part of the sky shine directly on the observer. This means that it is noon absolutely everywhere at the same time. And, as he doesn't point out (i guess because he assumes all readers will get the idea), the direction the light beams point "swivels" through the day, so a point observer would think the source of the light (the "sun") moves through the day. Or you could just have the "ceiling" brighten and darken cyclically. This, however, will not give the appearance of a "sun" rising and setting. Unless "waves" of brightening and dimming crossed the "ceiling"; this, though, would look like a band of "sunlight" crossing the sky every day, and far distant bands of light would be visible in the far distance at "night". Note that with the idea given in Chessboards, if the light is emitted by discrete "lamps," that if the swivel mechanism got stuck on one, its light would be visible during the night; this accounts for stars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? Luminous clouds. Moisture absorbs the heat of the ground during the "night", forming water vapor which rises into the cooler sky above and collects as clouds. Some property in the water and/or air causes the clouds to emit their stored heat as both heat and light, warming the earth below again as well as nourishing green plants, etc. As the clouds cool down the light and heat fade, until they no longer have enough energy to remain vapor and condense into rain. Then the whole cycle starts up again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lennon Posted July 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? Luminous clouds. Moisture absorbs the heat of the ground during the "night", forming water vapor which rises into the cooler sky above and collects as clouds. Some property in the water and/or air causes the clouds to emit their stored heat as both heat and light, warming the earth below again as well as nourishing green plants, etc. As the clouds cool down the light and heat fade, until they no longer have enough energy to remain vapor and condense into rain. Then the whole cycle starts up again. That is very original. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Monster Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? Do it like a discworld - a hole in the middle (yeah, yeah, there ain't no "middle" of an infinite plane, shaddup!). Two possibilities: One, the sun rises and sets in the hole, bobbing up and down like a cork. True daylight only comes to places where there is a direct line-of-sight to the sun, which changes at various times of day. The 'leeward'(?) sides of mountains are in perpetual shadow. (You also end up with a natural explanation for true 'lands of darkness' which are situated so that direct sunlight never reaches; and the farther away from the sun you are, the more likely you are to forever dwell in darkness.) Two, the sun is always "up" at least partway, like a lightbulb on a pedestal. To get a day/night effect, either the sun has a light face and a dark face and rotates, or there is something around the sun rotating (or traveling on a track of some kind) which cuts off sunlight on a regular basis - traveling mountains, or a parade of mythological creatures (which, as I think about this, could be the basis for a zodiac in this realm...). Note that the periods of light/darkness need not be regular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comic Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? Cyclic planar polarization. When the polarizing filters line up, there's maximum light, otherwise decreasing light until total darkness. Just a property of the space, that its polarity rotates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? You wouldn't be able to see the stars at night then though... How about a second infinite plane behind all the stars, that cycles in brightness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancer Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? Posit that the sky is an infinite 2-d membrane which can flex in the 3rd dimension (like a drumhead or flag flapping in the wind). That can allow travelling waves, ripples, in the sky. Now let that sky membrane emit light equally from each point, but that light is emitted ONLY exactly perpendicularly to the surface at each point. Then with a repeated pattern of parallel, traveling sinusoidal waves in the sky which move from east to west, you can get stripes of day and night moving across the surface of the world. You can tweak the speed and amplitude of the waves (relative to the distance between world and sky) to adjust the sharpness of the twilight. If the transmission of light through the atmosphere is lossy, then by making the waves long and fast enough with respect to the inhabitants' perception range, you can arrange it so that someone standing on the world will perceive no more than about half a wave as it passes. Probably this doesn't actually work, but it'd be cute to play with it a while and see how contorted things have to be in order to function. I think you have to have either loss of light as it travels or a finite edge to avoid some nonsense; otherwise you will slam up against something like Olber's Paradox and have something that blatantly contradicts any observer's experience. Downside: you can't mimic latitudinal effects this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? Personally, I'd go with something less "absolute", less hard science. I mean, the reason why people invented mythes is that they had no other way to explain the world in wich they lived. They just saw the sun going down on every evening and imagined a story to explain it. Of course those stories were minimally coherent, but they didn't have to take in consideration every detail of physical "realism"... To keep a good feel of mythology, (if that's really what you want), you should not embarass yourself with such hard facts. I'd say that the god's in the sky during day time, and everybody, everywhere can see it at the same time and that's all. At least, that's what I think... I hope this can be usefull, anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lennon Posted July 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? Personally, I'd go with something less "absolute", less hard science. I mean, the reason why people invented mythes is that they had no other way to explain the world in wich they lived. They just saw the sun going down on every evening and imagined a story to explain it. Of course those stories were minimally coherent, but they didn't have to take in consideration every detail of physical "realism"... To keep a good feel of mythology, (if that's really what you want), you should not embarass yourself with such hard facts. I'd say that the god's in the sky during day time, and everybody, everywhere can see it at the same time and that's all. At least, that's what I think... I hope this can be usefull, anyway... I have been mulling this over for couple years for my homebrew world and have came up with hundreds of "hows". What I am looking for is some excellent "whys". Like you said I am looking for a good feel of mythology. The cloud and vibrating membrane are new ideas to me though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Boy Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? I have been mulling this over for couple years for my homebrew world and have came up with hundreds of "hows". What I am looking for is some excellent "whys". Like you said I am looking for a good feel of mythology. The cloud and vibrating membrane are new ideas to me though. Without the mathemtical sophistication, Cancer's vibrating membrane is the way that Xenocrates and the Hebrew scholars did it, after rejecting the implications of Babylonian astronomy, c. 600BC. (Infinite God can mean an infinite universe, in which case the Earth is a sphere around which the Sun God circles. Unfortunately, that means that there is no land of the dead and the other planets are lesser gods. Better: the Earth is an infinite plane, just as God is infinite. ) The holes in the firmament through which the sun and stars shine are "the lamps of his mouth, the stars of his eyes" that gave Roger Zelazny one of his best titles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? I have been mulling this over for couple years for my homebrew world and have came up with hundreds of "hows". What I am looking for is some excellent "whys". Like you said I am looking for a good feel of mythology. The cloud and vibrating membrane are new ideas to me though. Ah. Well, the "competing forces" explanation is always a good one for dichotomies. Like Persephone's dividing time between her mother Demeter and husband Hades being the cause of the change of the seasons. Perhaps the god (or gods) of night/darkness and day/light have reached some sort of agreement whereby they divide rulership of the world over alternating periods. Or the light source for the plane could be responsible for lighting both the upper surface and the underworld, but can only do one at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSgt Baloo Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? Posit that the sky is an infinite 2-d membrane which can flex in the 3rd dimension (like a drumhead or flag flapping in the wind). That can allow travelling waves' date=' ripples, in the sky. Now let that sky membrane emit light equally from each point, but that light is emitted ONLY exactly perpendicularly to the surface at each point. Then with a repeated pattern of parallel, traveling sinusoidal waves in the sky which move from east to west, you can get stripes of day and night moving across the surface of the world. You can tweak the speed and amplitude of the waves (relative to the distance between world and sky) to adjust the sharpness of the twilight. If the transmission of light through the atmosphere is lossy, then by making the waves long and fast enough with respect to the inhabitants' perception range, you can arrange it so that someone standing on the world will perceive no more than about half a wave as it passes.[/quote'] Perhaps the waves are concentric ripples from (or to) a central point and the characters live far enough away from the center that no curvature is apparent. Likewise, lesser ripples are overwhelmed by the brightness of the day sky, but are readily visible at "night" due to the considerably lesser amount of illumination? Of course, these smaller ripples might be entirely random, giving the sky a "luminescent cloud" look or the ripples might be small and sharp, producing a twinkling effect. They might even be standing waves, the interference patterns of which enable navigation by those knowledgeable in "sky-ology"? Do it like a discworld - a hole in the middle (yeah, yeah, there ain't no "middle" of an infinite plane, shaddup!). Two possibilities: One, the sun rises and sets in the hole, bobbing up and down like a cork. True daylight only comes to places where there is a direct line-of-sight to the sun, which changes at various times of day. The 'leeward'(?) sides of mountains are in perpetual shadow. (You also end up with a natural explanation for true 'lands of darkness' which are situated so that direct sunlight never reaches; and the farther away from the sun you are, the more likely you are to forever dwell in darkness.) Two, the sun is always "up" at least partway, like a lightbulb on a pedestal. To get a day/night effect, either the sun has a light face and a dark face and rotates, or there is something around the sun rotating (or traveling on a track of some kind) which cuts off sunlight on a regular basis - traveling mountains, or a parade of mythological creatures (which, as I think about this, could be the basis for a zodiac in this realm...). Note that the periods of light/darkness need not be regular. The advantage to this is that there needen't be only one "sun", and intervening terrain and distance would make other, distant suns centers of their own "world" on the infinite plain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted July 12, 2008 Report Share Posted July 12, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? I have been trying to think of a way to create the effect of day and night on an infinite plane? I was thinking about doing the whole Apollo thing with a god riding the sun every morning but that would mean he would have to ride in circles and some portion of the plane would always be in darkness. On an infinite plane there's room for more than one sun god. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted July 12, 2008 Report Share Posted July 12, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? Why are you worrying about physics or gods running about in circles? You already have an infinite plane. I would have the Sun god turn his attention to the physical plane once per day (noon) and this is when every point on the infinite plane experiences the hottest/brightest part of the day. The seasons occur as the balance shifts between the Sun God and the god of night/darkness/death waxes and wanes. In Summer the strength of the Sun god is at its height and so the effects of even partial attention are pronounced giving greater warmth and light throughout the day. Good mythic explanation, no science necessary. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSgt Baloo Posted July 12, 2008 Report Share Posted July 12, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? Why are you worrying about physics or gods running about in circles? You already have an infinite plane. I would have the Sun god turn his attention to the physical plane once per day (noon) and this is when every point on the infinite plane experiences the hottest/brightest part of the day. The seasons occur as the balance shifts between the Sun God and the god of night/darkness/death waxes and wanes. In Summer the strength of the Sun god is at its height and so the effects of even partial attention are pronounced giving greater warmth and light throughout the day. Good mythic explanation, no science necessary. Doc You can't just run around willy-nilly applying logic to everything, man! This is the Internet. There are traditions to uphold! Now let's see some good, old irrational behavior like we're all used to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted July 12, 2008 Report Share Posted July 12, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? You can't just run around willy-nilly applying logic to everything' date=' man! This is the [u']Internet[/u]. There are traditions to uphold! Now let's see some good, old irrational behavior like we're all used to. ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted July 15, 2008 Report Share Posted July 15, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? You could have the sun be stationary, and night and day are caused by the rotation of the plane. The further out you get, the more the plane seems to 'tilt' as characters are subjected to stronger centripetal forces. And what's on the other side of the plane? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lennon Posted July 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? Why are you worrying about physics or gods running about in circles? Funny, I am a physics major. Physics is all I every worry about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted July 15, 2008 Report Share Posted July 15, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? Funny' date=' I am a physics major. Physics is all I every worry about.[/quote'] Well use your gaming to take a break then. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted July 15, 2008 Report Share Posted July 15, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? The god of day has a single eye, which slowly opens and closes each day. Don't worry about the physics, you've already broken things with an infinite flat plane of existance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Monster Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? The advantage to this is that there needen't be only one "sun", and intervening terrain and distance would make other, distant suns centers of their own "world" on the infinite plain. This puts me in mind of the old Lunar Empire from Runequest (IIRC). Reinterpreted to this idea, make it possible (by some arcane/technological/divine procedure) to relay sunlight from place to place, like mirrors or prisms, so that the light of the sun can be brought to places otherwise blocked from it. These sites (presumably mountaintops, for maximum reach) would be crucial to expanding and maintaining certain kinds of life and civilizations. Of course they would require maintenance and protection. Furthermore, (speaking of prisms and such), the sunlight might be manipulated to produce certain effects, subtle and not-so-subtle. Bright light for growing most crops; muted light for some religious or artsy areas; even sunlight with the UV filtered out so you don't get sunburn. Day/night cycles in many areas thus become subject to the whim of the authorities. ("didn't pay your Sun Tax? SOrry, we'll have to shut it down. Goodnight, everyone!") ........................................... Another possiblity is that 'sunlight' actually comes from certain minerals, which are rare and deep, and only rise to the surface at volcanoes, spewed up as magma. With certain techniques, the stuff could be gathered and transported. Not a day/night solution per se (though each barony could have its own 'sun' - a lighthouse!), but could be fun to work through implications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maur Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? A point source of light an infinite distance away from an infinite plane will appear to be always overhead no matter where you are on the plane and so won't need the contrivance of multiple sources and such. Setting/Rising are just part of the magic that is the plane. E.g. the sun blinks every-so-often just as a person does which causes night and day (takes a while for it to close and open due to its size, heheh). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted July 19, 2008 Report Share Posted July 19, 2008 Re: Handling day and night on infinite plane? The universe is filled with the Lumenifacous Æther; a substance of almost-but-not-quite-zero density. Where it penetrates, or is near to, grosser matter, it does nothing. Where far from solids or liquids (as in dozens of kilometers, or more), it may, or may not, produce light. The currents within the Lumenifacous Æther, here and there, run headlong into other currents. If the impact is sufficiently forcible, the Lumenifacous Æther glows. Sometimes the glow is great, sometimes less. The changes in the currents in the Lumenifacous Æther are slow, sweeping things, and the amount of light shed upon the solid surface changes in day-long, or even days-long, periods. The change is, as well, unpredictable, random. The life-forms on the solid surface have evolved to deal with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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